Mystery Munitions and HUGE Lead discovered in local park

[Frodov]

Hi gang, sorry but I don't have time to spin a spell binder today. It's Early.. 6:30 AM actually and I'm getting ready to head north to my Family's farm in Northern Scott County (Kentucky). As many of you hunters out there know, and I'm talking hunting of animals not metal this time, it's deer season again. Gun season for dear specifically, at least here in Kentucky anyway. My father owns and operates a butcher shop in rural Scott County and for the past 20 plus years he shuts down all operations and processes deer... everthing from skinning the animal carcasses to cutting them up into steaks, roasts, grinding burger and even making smoked summer sausage. Every year it's the same.. he gets SWAMPED!.. Overrun with hunters bringing their game in to have worked up for them. Every year for the past 20 plus years, I've pitched in and helped out during the opening weekend and the closing weekend.. I'm not a butcher or even a skinner.. every time I pick up a knife I tend to cut myself <blush> I *DO* however provide a bit of help by way of keeping the crowd under manageable control.. directing traffic and parking in the limited parking lot at the meat shop, making sure all hunters are "legal" and their deer is "legal" and making sure that nothing is brought in that is.. well.. funky. Some deer hunters aren't as talented as they'd like to think they are. Some aren't as smart or knowledgeable as we'd like them to be either. One MAJOR rule at my dad's shop.. if it's stinking or sour before it gets there, it doesn't' come in the door! I get the immense pleasure of "checking" all the deer brought in to be processed at my dad's shop.. kind of makes me the chief "@$$hole" sniffer.. <blushing again>.. the deer will begin to decompose or sour (rot) in the hams and pelvic girdle first.. the @$$ end of the deer.. <shrug>
With all the gory details revealed I'm sure there are many of you that envy my volunteer job today and tomorrow.. <laughing> Yeah.. RIGHT!.. Anyway, that's where I'm headed this AM as soon as I put this little post in. I got out detecting for a couple of hours yesterday.. and NO SNOW this time. No gold either, but I had fun and I found some intriguing finds. One find was a first for me.. A Kennedy Half Dollar ! Cool! Another first.. yeah there were more than one firsts yesterday.. was a HUGE hunk of lead. I'm thinking some sort of old plumbing application, but it was "formerly" in sheet form..so it could just as well be roofing or some flashing for plumbing ON a roof. <shrug> The last and final first was a couple of old.. and I'm thinking Antique at best.. shell casings. They are either a large bore rifle shell, or a small shotgun shell..bigger than a .410 but smaller than .20 gauge... or perhaps a really big @$$ed pistol caliber. I'm hoping someone can help me out with identifying them here. I'll submit the pics at the end of this post as usual.
My other finds for the day were $3.24 in clad, a dog tag (rabies vaccination), a Toyota key, lots of pull tabs of course *sigh*, a key chain ring, part of a bicycle chain, metal button, some wire..that was a devil to find!, a decking screw and some other odds and ends that were trash. The Cartridge really were the highlite of the day though.. found one under a massive white oak tree..probably a good couple of hundred years old at least.. and the other cartridge was found about a hundred feet away under another large tree.. American beech I think.. This is a rather old park, but at one time it was considered the outskirts of town for Lexington.. and it wasn't a park back then.
As for the cartridges, while I'm no expert I know they are old due to the fact that they don't have modern primer charges on them.. the bottoms more closely resemble rimfire cartridges like say a .22 caliber shell might have. They aren't rimfire shells themselves, I think, but have a look at the pics and see for yourself. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.. now I've got to scoot.. got deer to.. uh.. sniff. <blushing> Happy Hunting All..



Frodov


---Here are the pics---
















Again, any help identifying these shells would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

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[Colonial KirkPA]

Frodov, you are a hoot. I blush, too, when I sniff butts.

Another great tale from a great detectorist.

Bone Dry Detecting...Kirk aka Kirkdov

P.S. I didn't notice a <grin> today, my friend.

 

[gold fish]

Could they be old brass shotshells ?? If they are, that's really cool, I've been wanting to find some of those(intact), nice digs.

 

[junkdigger]

Frodov,well you had to find some tough shell cases to identify! After the Civil war,self- contained cartridges were still being developed and many experimental types were tried. The Spencer,Henry,and some others were used in the Civil war,but weren't very powerful,especially at longer ranges. And after that war,there were MANY surplus rifled muskets,and little in the budget to develop a new rifle. Erskine Allen was one of several inventors who made these rifled muskets into breech-loaders by adding a breech block to permit the use of center-fire or rim-fire cartridges. And each inventor designed their cartridges in somewhat different sizes. From my books,I believe you have Erskine Allen's cartridge for his Allen conversion of the Model 1865 percussion musket. BUT,one of my books says they were rimfire cartridges! And yours are Benet patent primed CENTERFIRE cartridges! But,yours could be another experiment! Your cartridges would be called "58 Musket,Benet primed".
The Erskine Allen conversion was continually improved to become the Springfield Trapdoor rifle (and carbine) used in the Indian wars,and in the Spanish-American war. And the 58 Musket cartridge was replaced by the 50-70 cartridge,then finally,by the 45-70 cartridge.
As to the longer case with the tapered mouth,it might be a shotshell for foraging small game with that same rifle,or more likely,it might be a blank for training or saluting.

 

[VERMONTPACKRAT]

Nice ID on the bullet casings !! junkdigger has helped me out as well.


VPR

 

[diggerfororo]

The case with the tapered end is a blank training round. the ring around the case was for a reduced powder charge. Not sure of the cal. I found quite a few of these at the site of fort Hayse in Columbus Ohio.

Les

 

[junkdigger]

Yes,this might be a training round. But in 1865 the Benet patent primer was introduced,and used in several calibers. The case had no external primer. The primer was inserted through the mouth of the case,held by a brass or iron cup which filled the base,and was secured in place by the "crimp" about 1/4" above the rim. This primer cup also served to reinforce the base of the case where it was needed.

 

[tymcmurray]

Nice hunt and nice finds, but I can't seem to be able
to take my eyes off of that half dollar. That must have
sounded sweet in your earphones!

 

[Colonial KirkPA]

Frodov,

I hope you didn't pass out yesterday while sniffing buttholes. :P

Bone Dry Detecting...Kirk a.k.a. Kirkdov

 

[Frodov]

Nope.. didn't pass out sniffing Deer Butts... nearly puked a couple of times.. but those deer were sent packing, politely, after we convinced their owner/slayers that they really REALLY didn't want to eat that meat. Usually it only takes having them sniff it for themselves to get the point across. <grin> Too bad I didn't get out to use my detector any over the weekend though. *sigh* I DID make a few finds in the parking lot however. One lone nickel that has seen better days, half buried in the gravel. One Still working cell phone.. sitting on TOP of the gravel <grin> and a handfull of spent shell casings of various brands and calibers. It's amazing what a hunter hopped up on an adrenaline high misplaces or drops and is oblivious to it. I remember one year a hunter set his rifle down beside his truck (leaning against the fender) as he unloaded his deer.. and then drove off with it falling over onto the ground. He made it about 5 miles away before he realized what he had done and turned around to come back and get the rifle. Fortunately it wasn't loaded and we were kind enough to set it aside until he returned for it. <smirk> Darn.. that was a sweet rifle too.. <laughing> Oh.. the cell phone was returned to it's owner, the shell casings are in a bucket used for that very purpose, and the nickel?.. in my pocket for now. <grin>
Now it's Monday and everyone is back to the grindstone. I've got the day off today, fortunately, but I'm being assaulted by the wonderful sounds of workmen on my roof removing old shingles and tar paper sheeting. My replacement roof from the summer's hail storm damage is finally getting installed today. Well... once the old two layers of shingles are removed and new felt is put down. My poor cat is nearly "Catatonic" with fright.. all this scraping and pounding going on, she's freaking out. I just hope the rain holds off till they are finished today. Weather man is predicting chances of scattered showers today (locally), thunderstorms Tuesday and Wednesday.. then a chance of SNOW on ThanksGiving Day!!! Brrrr.. snow.. going to definitely cut down on the metal detecting then.. *sigh* Guess I'll have to go visit my friend at the library and do some in depth research for next spring's and summer's metal detecting forays.
That.. and perhaps buy rolls and rolls of quarters and do some treasure hunting that way.. <grin>

Happy Thanks Giving Everyone!!! and as always.. Happy Hunting!


Frodov

 

[Colonial KirkPA]

Frodov,

You have a lot of class. It is a pleasure perusing your stories. Keep them up, buddy.

Bone Dry Detecting...Kirk

 

[Kentucky Kache]

So, that's why you always say <sniff>. Old habits...
BUT seriously, I think you deserve such nice finds, and a new roof. Grats.