Name the 5 best books on LDM

[Randy Bradford]

Just curious what the consensus is given the sheer volume of material written on the LDM. Which 5 books do you consider "MUST HAVE" or at least "MUST READ." You can post more than 5, but I really want an idea of which books are considered crucial, even necessary. What are THE best books for understanding the LDM and educating yourself about it?

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Hi Randy,

For me the 5 books that I believe to have the most relevance to the entire Lost Dutchman Mine Legend are :

The Holmes Manuscript. Brownie Holmes and Charles Kennison 1944

The Gassler Manuscript. Karl Walter Gassler 1980

Superstition Wilderness Trails West. Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart 2013

The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Goldmine and Jacob Waltz. Helen Corbin 2002

The Matt Cavaness Memoirs. Mathew Lewis Cavaness 1910

* These 5 are in no specific order of importance. All 5 together however will get you closer to the LDM than all the other books combined. That is my personal opinion.

Matthew Roberts

 

[Randy Bradford]

Interesting list, I notice none of the traditionally popular one's appear. "Thunder God's Gold" comes immediately to mind. I'm not much of a Dutchman scholar but I thought it might be worth a review of the literature. Seems to me I once read there were over 500 LDM books in print. I notice that's also a nice mix of old and new stuff, good to know people are still doing quality work on the LDM instead of just phoning it in all the time.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Interesting list, I notice none of the traditionally popular one's appear. "Thunder God's Gold" comes immediately to mind. I'm not much of a Dutchman scholar but I thought it might be worth a review of the literature. Seems to me I once read there were over 500 LDM books in print. I notice that's also a nice mix of old and new stuff, good to know people are still doing quality work on the LDM instead of just phoning it in all the time.

Randy,

I'm not saying Thunder God's Gold and others aren't good books and don't have anything to offer. They are and all have good things, some more than others. Just for me personally the five I noted are the ones that I feel have the most to offer. Not every page is packed with good relevant passages, but each contains something, some bit of information I believe will get you as close to the mine as any other book or publication. It all has to do with what you believe, and for some of us, what we have learned while searching in the mountains. Others will have different opinions based on their own personal beliefs and experiences.

Matthew

 

[Oroblanco]

Great thread topic Randy!

How about this group of four for starters:

The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely
The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin
Trail of the Dutchman by Barry Storm
The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part One: The Golden Dream by Dr Thomas Glover

I am undecided what to add for the fifth one, may add it later.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Great thread topic Randy!

How about this group of four for starters:

The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely
The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold by Helen Corbin
Trail of the Dutchman by Barry Storm
The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz, Part One: The Golden Dream by Dr Thomas Glover

I am undecided what to add for the fifth one, may add it later.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

Roy,

I like your list, but would remove Dr. Glover's book for now. When his new book is published, I believe he will have weeded out some of the made-up parts that he received from a "trusted source". Despite that, I believe his book is one of the best ever written on the history of Jacob Waltz and the LDM. His research into the verifiable history of Jacob Waltz and the information he received from other sources is some of the best.

I would add "Tales of the Superstitions" by Robert Blair to the mix for #5.

I would also add "Superstition Wilderness Trails West", "Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness" and "Superstition Wilderness Trails East" by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart. While the last three are not LDM books (but very close) per se, I believe they should be required reading for every Dutch Hunter, and hiker, who explores the interior of the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I like your list, but would remove Dr. Glover's book for now. When his new book is published, I believe he will have weeded out some of the made-up parts that he received from a "trusted source". Despite that, I believe his book is one of the best ever written on the history of Jacob Waltz and the LDM. His research into the verifiable history of Jacob Waltz and the information he received from other sources is some of the best.

I would add "Tales of the Superstitions" by Robert Blair to the mix for #5.

I would also add "Superstition Wilderness Trails West", "Hiker's Guide to the Superstition Wilderness" and "Superstition Wilderness Trails East" by Jack Carlson and Elizabeth Stewart. While the last three are not LDM books (but very close) per se, I believe they should be required reading for every Dutch Hunter, and hiker, who explores the interior of the Superstitions.

Take care,

Joe

Well I still would keep Glover's among the list of "best" even with faulty info, for it has some excellent research; would you consider Barry Storm to have been a careful researcher? I included his first book as a good read, covers the legend pretty well despite obvious flaws. I did consider Blair's book too but can't find it, and am too lazy to hunt for it however have to agree that it is a very good book on the topic. <Even if I disagree with his conclusions>

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn,
Roy

PS also have to agree on your other book recommendations, would be very good for anyone hunting the LDM or just wanting to hike and take in the scenery, full of solid info that otherwise would take hard knocks to learn.

 

[cactusjumper]

Well I still would keep Glover's among the list of "best" even with faulty info, for it has some excellent research; would you consider Barry Storm to have been a careful researcher? I included his first book as a good read, covers the legend pretty well despite obvious flaws. I did consider Blair's book too but can't find it, and am too lazy to hunt for it however have to agree that it is a very good book on the topic. <Even if I disagree with his conclusions>

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn,
Roy

PS also have to agree on your other book recommendations, would be very good for anyone hunting the LDM or just wanting to hike and take in the scenery, full of solid info that otherwise would take hard knocks to learn.

Roy,

As I said, "Despite that, I believe his book is one of the best ever written on the history of Jacob Waltz and the LDM." If Dr. Glover wanted to write fiction, or a historical novel, he could easily do it. One of the most intelligent men I have ever met, as well as being honest and trustworthy. When Thomas tells me something.......I just take it to the bank........after I check it out for myself.

We are doing pretty well. Smokey is ornery as ever, laying at my feet and growling at the sounds the wind is making outside.

Our best to you, Beth and the pups,

Joe & Carolyn

 

[Gold Maven]

I love reading the old books, but hasn't it been proven that the Dutchman's gold was just from a high-graded stash that he took from the Vulture mine at Wickenburg years earlier?

I don't mean to ruffle any one's feather's, but I saw a documentary on this where they had a sample of the Dutchman's gold, and the Vulture mine, and they matched.

 

[gollum]

Horsey,

A lot of people believe the stone maps are modern creations, and not authentic treasure maps. Meh

1. The Lost Dutchman Mine - Sims Ely
2. Holmes Manuscript - Charles Kennison and Brownie Holmes?
3. Lost Dutchman Mine - Thomas Glover
4. The Sterling Legend - Estee Conatser
5. Making of the Motion Picture The Lost Dutchman Mine - Robert E. Lee (really more the movie than the book)

Mike

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I love reading the old books, but hasn't it been proven that the Dutchman's gold was just from a high-graded stash that he took from the Vulture mine at Wickenburg years earlier?

I don't mean to ruffle any one's feather's, but I saw a documentary on this where they had a sample of the Dutchman's gold, and the Vulture mine, and they matched.

Gold Maven,

The theory Waltz highgraded gold from the Vulture mine has been around for a long time. There is no definate evidence he ever did highgrade or even work at the Vulture. On the other hand there is no definate evidence he didn't. It is possible but in my own opinion I don't believe his gold came from the Vulture. Too many variations in the metalic minerals and quartz for me to be a good match. There are other verbal things that also lead me to believe it was not Vulture ore. You may very well have seen a documentary on Waltz highgrading from the Vulture. Several new videos have come out in past couple years.

An ore analysis (comparison) was done several years back on Vulture and Waltz ore. But the person guiding the testing wasn't up to the task and it became such a loose comparison the results were conjecture and a guess on the part of the person doing the testing. There was no analysis that would be anywhere near conclusive.

Many in the Dutchman community do not even agree on what Waltz ore is. It all comes down to what YOU believe. I've seen what I know to be Waltz ore and I've seen several samples of Vulture ore and in my personal opinion they are not the same. If you ask another dutch hunter he will tell you something entirely different.

There is no sense in endless arguments about the issue with people who for the most part just like to argue anyway. You decide what YOU truly believe and go from there. Trying to convince others or change their minds is pointless. I always listen to everyone's opinions but so far have not changed mine on the issue.

Matthew

 

[gollum]

I love reading the old books, but hasn't it been proven that the Dutchman's gold was just from a high-graded stash that he took from the Vulture mine at Wickenburg years earlier?

I don't mean to ruffle any one's feather's, but I saw a documentary on this where they had a sample of the Dutchman's gold, and the Vulture mine, and they matched.

Maven,

Here is a quote from the "Holmes Manuscript":

Some stories have been related at various times that Waltz might have been robbing the Vulture Mine or even might have obtained some of his gold ore from the Black Queen in Goldfield. Several assayers, one of whom I will mention, Joseph Porterie who was at one time the assayer at the Vulture and who had also seen lots of ore from the Black Queen, upon examining the ore I have in my possession which was obtained by me from Waltz, stated that he was positive it did not come from either of the afore-mentioned mines.

Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Gold Maven,

The theory Waltz highgraded gold from the Vulture mine has been around for a long time. There is no definate evidence he ever did highgrade or even work at the Vulture. On the other hand there is no definate evidence he didn't. It is possible but in my own opinion I don't believe his gold came from the Vulture. Too many variations in the metalic minerals and quartz for me to be a good match. There are other verbal things that also lead me to believe it was not Vulture ore. You may very well have seen a documentary on Waltz highgrading from the Vulture. Several new videos have come out in past couple years.

An ore analysis (comparison) was done several years back on Vulture and Waltz ore. But the person guiding the testing wasn't up to the task and it became such a loose comparison the results were conjecture and a guess on the part of the person doing the testing. There was no analysis that would be anywhere near conclusive.

Many in the Dutchman community do not even agree on what Waltz ore is. It all comes down to what YOU believe. I've seen what I know to be Waltz ore and I've seen several samples of Vulture ore and in my personal opinion they are not the same. If you ask another dutch hunter he will tell you something entirely different.

There is no sense in endless arguments about the issue with people who for the most part just like to argue anyway. You decide what YOU truly believe and go from there. Trying to convince others or change their minds is pointless. I always listen to everyone's opinions but so far have not changed mine on the issue.

Matthew

Could you tell more about this waltz ore you have seen? Thanks!

 

[Matthew Roberts]

"Could you tell more about this waltz ore you have seen? Thanks !"

Without going into the whole (long) story, it is believed by some that when Waltz died, Dick Holmes took a box of gold ore from under Waltz's bed and sold it to Charles Goldman at Goldman's Mercantile store in Phoenix. Holmes kept some of that ore for himself as a sample and to make jewelry. Goldman in turn sold the gold as bullion but also kept some select pieces to be sold for making jewelry due to the richness of the ore.

James Douglas claimed to have bought some of this ore from Goldman as did Emil Ganz and Gus Hirshfeld. All three of these men were famous throughout Arizona and either owned mines or invested heavily in them.

I have seen the matchbox, stickpin and cuff links made from this ore. Also saw a piece of Waltz ore Brownie Holmes carried with him in his pocket. A sample his father Dick Holmes did not sell to Goldman. I've seen a necklace James Douglas had made from that ore which is now owned by a lady in Pleasant Valley.
A few other examples that confidentiality will not let me divulge.

Once again, this all comes down to what you believe. Some do not believe Dick Holmes ever had any ore from Waltz. That is their opinion and they are welcome to it. I however do believe Holmes did have ore from Waltz. There is more than just the physical evidence of the gold and jewelry but again, confidentiality does not allow me to go into those details.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

"Did the German translation come from you and your family?"

FEMF,

Not sure exactly which German translation you are refering to. In a book, publication, article, manuscript ? Do you mean directly or indirectly ?

The latest on the Oak Flat Land Exchange is the House Bill could not get enough votes so the House sponsors would not let it come to a vote on the House floor and lose. Senator McCain did an end run and sponsored a seperate bill with New Mexico chairman of the Energy and Natural Resources Committee Jeff Bingman ( S.409). This was a marked up compromise to the House version of the bill. Rammed through with 35 other bills so no one would notice or object. McCain and Rio Tinto (the parent Company of Resolution Copper) confered on this compromise bill cutting out all other interested parties. This was done late December 2013 - January 2014 time frame. McCain has since been unable to get enough support for his compromise to bring it to a vote on the Senate floor so both the House and Senate bills are stalled while they try to drum up enough support for one or the other. That was the latest news last time I spoke with Martine at San Carlos.

Matthew

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Ah, confidentiality .

 

[hooch]

I could really care less about some fabled Dutchman Mine, but I truly love anything written by Tom Kollenborn, that guy is the **** and has been there done that in those mountains. Pretty much the only person I believe anymore on the subject.

 

[Randy Bradford]

Thanks, I've enjoyed the feedback tremendously. With so much to read knowing what to focus on later will be enormously helpful...

 

[cactusjumper]

Kraig wrote:

"I've seen a necklace James Douglas had made from that ore which is now owned by a lady in Pleasant Valley."

I have been told that the necklace was for sale. Don't know if it still is, or was sold. If anyone is interested, I will ask my source.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[roadrunner]

Anyone have a pic of this necklace by chance?
Or know of a pic any where.