New discovery!
- Thread starter sgtfda
- Start date
Old
Hero Member
Facts do get in the way of a good story. Drat! what a boring concept.
That may have more to do with why the Legends show rating fell than base subject matter. Wet paint black hand prints, fresh medicine wheels, hide and seek crosses........You can fool some of the people some of the time.....etc., etc. Poor choice from the production side. Just saying..........
You are right that I rarely post these days. I miss the old days <g>. Alas, I miss the threads of substantive and lively debate. Where I think I have something to contribute to something that interest me......I do post occasionally.
If you track back to some of my earlier post re: Tumlinson, I chose to back away because it always turned to allegations of ulterior motives as this has, falsely I might add. However; I reserved the basic right to challenge when I felt there was misleading/incorrect information being put forward. Sometimes it is harmless, some is not. Sending folks thinking down a rabbit hole is just wrong. At least, I think so. Too much of that has already muddied the waters.
Robert/Travis and Garman were not trail partners, IMO. Robert was a pen pal very late in his life (82 ish) when he tried to sell the story to Garman, a writer he had met, maybe once many years earlier and exchanged campfire stories with. Robert needed money and human interaction at that late stage in his life. His letter(s) were a plea for both.
Garman couldn't pick out the subject from a line up. That OUGHT to tell you, of all people, something. They had little direct face to face involvement. Most folks would remember what the person looked like that gave them an opportunity to photograph a map that may have lead them to a million dollars. The thought process (to me) just falls apart that the source of the slide is via a face to face interaction with "Tumlinson". Third or forth hand, perhaps. Who knows
If Robert had given Garman a special map to photograph it would be something burned into his memory.
If that doesn't sway you, Robert Tumlinson's letter(s) ought to seal the deal for you.
I truly wish you the best in your pursuits. I hope your map finds you wealth and happiness beyond measure.
That may have more to do with why the Legends show rating fell than base subject matter. Wet paint black hand prints, fresh medicine wheels, hide and seek crosses........You can fool some of the people some of the time.....etc., etc. Poor choice from the production side. Just saying..........
You are right that I rarely post these days. I miss the old days <g>. Alas, I miss the threads of substantive and lively debate. Where I think I have something to contribute to something that interest me......I do post occasionally.
If you track back to some of my earlier post re: Tumlinson, I chose to back away because it always turned to allegations of ulterior motives as this has, falsely I might add. However; I reserved the basic right to challenge when I felt there was misleading/incorrect information being put forward. Sometimes it is harmless, some is not. Sending folks thinking down a rabbit hole is just wrong. At least, I think so. Too much of that has already muddied the waters.
Robert/Travis and Garman were not trail partners, IMO. Robert was a pen pal very late in his life (82 ish) when he tried to sell the story to Garman, a writer he had met, maybe once many years earlier and exchanged campfire stories with. Robert needed money and human interaction at that late stage in his life. His letter(s) were a plea for both.
Garman couldn't pick out the subject from a line up. That OUGHT to tell you, of all people, something. They had little direct face to face involvement. Most folks would remember what the person looked like that gave them an opportunity to photograph a map that may have lead them to a million dollars. The thought process (to me) just falls apart that the source of the slide is via a face to face interaction with "Tumlinson". Third or forth hand, perhaps. Who knows
If Robert had given Garman a special map to photograph it would be something burned into his memory. If that doesn't sway you, Robert Tumlinson's letter(s) ought to seal the deal for you.
I truly wish you the best in your pursuits. I hope your map finds you wealth and happiness beyond measure.
sgtfda
Bronze Member
- #43
Thread Owner
Old
I too believed as you do. Funny thing about history. New facts can set it on it's ear. There is no question Garman was involved with the Tumlinsons before 1952. The slides prove that without a doubt. I'm personally taking a new look at Garman. I don't care what others do or think. Following new evidence others don't have frequently has positive results. I am only touching on the subject with this thread. Any stoner would be a fool not to take a close look at Garman considering what has come to light.
Again it should be noted I do not own the new material. I have no say on how or when it is used. This material is independent of previous material on the subject. It's part of a family history.
Oh and Old. Nothing shown on TV about the Superstitions has come close to touching the ratings on the Legend show. Which is still being aired around the world. Many millions have viewed it. I'm proud to have been part of it.
I too believed as you do. Funny thing about history. New facts can set it on it's ear. There is no question Garman was involved with the Tumlinsons before 1952. The slides prove that without a doubt. I'm personally taking a new look at Garman. I don't care what others do or think. Following new evidence others don't have frequently has positive results. I am only touching on the subject with this thread. Any stoner would be a fool not to take a close look at Garman considering what has come to light.
Again it should be noted I do not own the new material. I have no say on how or when it is used. This material is independent of previous material on the subject. It's part of a family history.
Oh and Old. Nothing shown on TV about the Superstitions has come close to touching the ratings on the Legend show. Which is still being aired around the world. Many millions have viewed it. I'm proud to have been part of it.
Last edited:
Old
Hero Member
Frank,
We have never been in the same boat. Not even the same lake. Our take aways are totally different and from a different perspective. Purposely so.
I do not now have, and have never had, a financial profit motivation from any of this. I have never had a goal or the desire for notoriety from this in any form. Not even so much as a name mention in the title credits. No desire whatsoever to appear on screen or anywhere in close proximity. No desire whatsoever to go to Arizona to dig for the pot of gold. I only want the story told as accurately as possible.
If you write a new chapter I look forward to it as well. But I will challenge what I see as conflicts in the record. If they are true unresolvable conflicts one will prevail and the other must be set aside. Both can not continue. Having multiple competing branches to the same story is what has gotten us to the confused mess we have today.
This is a hobby for me. Not a career. There is nothing wrong with those who do see this (and similar) as a career, its just not my objective. I have provided some research although that role has lessened as the product moved forward. I have been, and continue to be, a sound board. A sound board is quite different than an echo chamber. But; you knew that. The only boat I row is the one that fills MY purpose to get out a full, complete and accurate account of what happened.
Is it a perfect process Heck no, but its one I can live with and sleep well. If that ruffles feathers I can live with it.
We have never been in the same boat. Not even the same lake. Our take aways are totally different and from a different perspective. Purposely so.
I do not now have, and have never had, a financial profit motivation from any of this. I have never had a goal or the desire for notoriety from this in any form. Not even so much as a name mention in the title credits. No desire whatsoever to appear on screen or anywhere in close proximity. No desire whatsoever to go to Arizona to dig for the pot of gold. I only want the story told as accurately as possible.
If you write a new chapter I look forward to it as well. But I will challenge what I see as conflicts in the record. If they are true unresolvable conflicts one will prevail and the other must be set aside. Both can not continue. Having multiple competing branches to the same story is what has gotten us to the confused mess we have today.
This is a hobby for me. Not a career. There is nothing wrong with those who do see this (and similar) as a career, its just not my objective. I have provided some research although that role has lessened as the product moved forward. I have been, and continue to be, a sound board. A sound board is quite different than an echo chamber. But; you knew that. The only boat I row is the one that fills MY purpose to get out a full, complete and accurate account of what happened.
Is it a perfect process
Heck no, but its one I can live with and sleep well. If that ruffles feathers I can live with it.
wrmickel1
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Sgtfda
The answers not hidden in any private collection, There in a collection because they never found a ending.But I do agree with Joe, The people who made the maps spent a lot of time there. Just not the one's in the story, it way bigger then them, and they never found a ending either. Now there is one person with the artistic no how who comes to mind but I highly doubt it was him.
But on the other hand your show was Awesome, Loved every bit of It, And nothing wrong with making a few bucks. Old just got a stick up his, But I could be wrong it might just be jealous[emoji106][emoji3]
Wrmickel1
The answers not hidden in any private collection, There in a collection because they never found a ending.But I do agree with Joe, The people who made the maps spent a lot of time there. Just not the one's in the story, it way bigger then them, and they never found a ending either. Now there is one person with the artistic no how who comes to mind but I highly doubt it was him.
But on the other hand your show was Awesome, Loved every bit of It, And nothing wrong with making a few bucks. Old just got a stick up his, But I could be wrong it might just be jealous[emoji106][emoji3]
Wrmickel1
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Anything to keep the money flowing I guess. Two old guys sitting in front of a beggar's hovel, talking about how they wasted their time looking for something that was never there doesn't impress me. Glad you guys are happy with these extraordinary "finds." 
Oroblanco
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Anything to keep the money flowing I guess. Two old guys sitting in front of a beggar's hovel, talking about how they wasted their time looking for something that was never there doesn't impress me. Glad you guys are happy with these extraordinary "finds."
Glad to hear that this made you happy too!
Old
Hero Member
To each his own, I guess.
Being cautious and skeptical is apparently not favored around these parts.
I owe Matthew R a big apology. Little did I know that his methods of introducing a "new discovery" was not only acceptable, but welcomed with open arms by some. My bad, he was obviously keeping up with tradition. I could have made progress on my theories long ago by just wishing them so and totally ignoring any hard evidence that cast them in an unfavorable light.
Present presenter is but the tip of the iceberg. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes what has been presented to him. As said, he's far from the only one still, to this day, perpetuating assumptions as facts.
Its not so easy, and far less fun, to put the "new discovery" to the test of authenticity of does it fit with known, well established history or is it a stand alone anomaly. I know how easy it is to see, especially a picture, that looks so compelling but falls apart under further investigation. Its heartbreaking. I truly hope Frank's new finds are authentic. If so they would add a much welcomed new chapter and put to rest some others. But they have much to overcome in meeting that threshold. Not impossible, but improbable.
Here's the discrepancies. Color film during the late 40's and all of the 1950's was rarely used outside of professional hands and very expensive. A quick comparison of cost puts a single roll (12 to 24 shots) at current day price of $54. Using it to record an icon such as Herman is totally reasonable. Using it to record happenstance strangers encountered along the trail makes you go hmmmmm? I've discussed and won't bore you further with Garman's early misconceptions of Travis and Robert's family relationship, Travis' military history (none), etc. Garman's rewrites got better but they were wholly off the mark in the mid 70's. The real clincher, for me, is the photo of Travis, who Garman labeled as Robert, in Garman's book. If Garman had a desert photo of Travis, or Robert or Phil in his collection wouldn't you think he would use it in his defining written work on the subject If he had close meaningful interaction with Travis or Robert who were quite different looking wouldn't he know the difference?
For each individual discrepancy an argument can be made to overlook it. Taken as a whole........it overwhelming.
Being cautious and skeptical is apparently not favored around these parts.
I owe Matthew R a big apology. Little did I know that his methods of introducing a "new discovery" was not only acceptable, but welcomed with open arms by some. My bad, he was obviously keeping up with tradition. I could have made progress on my theories long ago by just wishing them so and totally ignoring any hard evidence that cast them in an unfavorable light.
Present presenter is but the tip of the iceberg. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes what has been presented to him. As said, he's far from the only one still, to this day, perpetuating assumptions as facts.
Its not so easy, and far less fun, to put the "new discovery" to the test of authenticity of does it fit with known, well established history or is it a stand alone anomaly. I know how easy it is to see, especially a picture, that looks so compelling but falls apart under further investigation. Its heartbreaking. I truly hope Frank's new finds are authentic. If so they would add a much welcomed new chapter and put to rest some others. But they have much to overcome in meeting that threshold. Not impossible, but improbable.
Here's the discrepancies. Color film during the late 40's and all of the 1950's was rarely used outside of professional hands and very expensive. A quick comparison of cost puts a single roll (12 to 24 shots) at current day price of $54. Using it to record an icon such as Herman is totally reasonable. Using it to record happenstance strangers encountered along the trail makes you go hmmmmm? I've discussed and won't bore you further with Garman's early misconceptions of Travis and Robert's family relationship, Travis' military history (none), etc. Garman's rewrites got better but they were wholly off the mark in the mid 70's. The real clincher, for me, is the photo of Travis, who Garman labeled as Robert, in Garman's book. If Garman had a desert photo of Travis, or Robert or Phil in his collection wouldn't you think he would use it in his defining written work on the subject
If he had close meaningful interaction with Travis or Robert who were quite different looking wouldn't he know the difference? For each individual discrepancy an argument can be made to overlook it. Taken as a whole........it overwhelming.
sgtfda
Bronze Member
- #59
Thread Owner
Seems this discovery has caused a stir in the community. It was well known Garmin owned a expensive camera during the time period. Others who could not afford even a basic camera would have him photograph things. The color slide set exists. The slides are from that time period. The subject matter is as described. I knew this question would come up. I photographed the slide with the Pegleg map being held in my hand against a lighted background. You never know. Things happen. There are Garman original documents never seen before. None of this will be made public and is in private hands. The owner is a huge Legend fan and wants to use that media. I started this thread at the suggestion of the owner. I told him it would cause a stir. I prefer surprises. I was very happy being allowed view the items. Personally I could care less what others think. Most have a agenda. Not all. Some of my friends are just happy seeing the one photo. That and knowing the items exist. I don't think there is much more I can say on this subject at this time. It's not my decision to make. It's a fact there are items in personal collections that would shed new insight into many of the legends. Many things accepted as fact today are not fact! As time goes on things can come to light. Or things can be overlooked. The TV show strange inheritance is a prime example!
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