Nice Bell Found at Shipwreck Site...with pictures.

[elle]

Dear Joe:

Thanks for the info!
You shall see me one day on a June's solstice for the hunt...as my destination is an hour away from Tubares.
If there really are aquatic serpents around 80 feet and 1 meter thick,
I think I'll save my skinny dipping for another river...
far from the Rio Fuerte!
Sharks and gators are one thing...but 80 foot serpents...even I have my limitations...LOL.

Check out this site. It does say that University students are working at Tubares...maybe you were there before they started to reconstruct the tower.
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/sierra_madre/journey_two_tubares.html

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ELLE LUV: Did those pictures bring back memories, sigh. I was particularly pleased to see the two large bells that I spoke of. The last time that I saw them, they were at the entrance to the grave yard.

On the grave yard picture, if you project your sight to the back low hill, there is a small cement (local) tank near the bottom with a three step style to enter / leave. There is a tunnel from the grave yard to it, which has a fired brick roof. I don't remember where the northern entrance was, but it could be back tracked. This was a common practice in those days as an escape feature.

You must remember that it was in 1957 when I was last there. It was completely isolated and alone, no roads. Sigh, how it has changed. It took me 4 days by mule from Chinapas to reach it. 1 day to Temoris, another to La Reforma, another to the home of Agustin Bacera, then another to Tubares.

As for Ceracahui, it consisted of the Church and 5 houses when I first arrived there. Now even roads. sheesh. Check the church and it's bells for very interesting stories.

I entered Urique in Feb 1956 returning from a couple of months of exploring the Barranca de Cobre by myself. After 3 days being soaking wet on the trail, I was muddy, unkempt, with a scraggy beard, and as usual in those days, with a .357 S&W magnum pistol at my side. I must have been a pretty sight. In any event, most were drunk on the celebration, and probably never noticed, but gave me a hearty welcome. hhehe. Again, there were probably only a handful of intact houses.

Now they even have tours from Ceracahui. ??

When I first passed through that area the Chuihuahua/Pacifica RR was just being started. The only traffic was by air, foot or animal.

Yes Luv, you have started memories which have been filed away for a bit, to come back.

Incidentally, I reported that serpent to the University of Chicago I believe, but no action was ever taken. I can imagine where my report was filed. The last that I have head is that they were strictly fish eaters. Delectable human females are apparently not on their preferred diet. I often wonder if there are any of the serpents left. The Fuete river, where the bell is, was originally full of Alligators also, but now long gone.

You mentioned only 1 hr from Tubares?? Where and doing what? (me nosey)

SORRY Scuba, it's all her fault !! heheheh

Don Jose de La mancha

 

[ScubaFinder]

Don Jose, No need to apologize...Laura and I go way back, and it's always her fault. I'm enjoying the discussion very much, and am jealous of your adventures you took in the past. I've only gotten to make one exploration where I was literally the only human around for miles, it is one of my favorite memories. Please, share all you want, I love the stories and don't have much to offer my thread in the way of helpful input right now anyways. LOL

Jason

 

[elle]

Dear Joe,

You are fascinating! And I am envious that you and Jas have completed your Walkabout!
I did jump off a cliff in Hawaii and have it on video...does that permit me to enter your Explorers Club?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning ELlE/Laura LUV: Jumping off of a cliff? Was that trying to escape an amorous boyfriend, Scuba, or just a bit psycho? If psycho, welcome to the club. hehehe.

As for the Explorers Club go to > www.explorers.org


After you submit your qualifications, they may check on them, then the board will vote upon you for entrance.

For me, it was the fulfillment of a boyhood dream. Yep, I was / am a nut on the Iliad etc. Because I still believe in legends & fairy tales, I found Tayopa. Too many others have just dismissed it as being too nebulous, just a fairy tale.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[elle]

Dear Jas and fellow researchers:

What do you know about a Fleet belonging to Frey Nicolas de Ovando that supposedly wrecked off Saona Island in the Dominican Republic?

This man is quite interesting. He was known as Hispaniola's conquistador and was governor from 1502-1509. Nicolas de Ovando played a major part in building a hospital and religious foundations.

He brought hundreds of people over from Spain to colonize in the New World.
Imagine finding some of his ships. I can't seem to find a hugh amount of detailed information.

Ok...I found the story...Page 590.
http://books.google.com/books?id=T5...admiral+of+the+ocean+sea#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Did anyone have success in finding any remnants of his Fleet?

 

[Smithbrown]

http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Turner-MA1994.pdf
Smithbrown

 

[elle]

Thank you...intriguing reading on the tube-guns and the fact that the verso powder chambers were retrieved by the natives to be used as yuca root pounders for the island's cassava bread industry.
Wreck particles were put to good use, weren't they?
Are you the author of this thesis?


*Sorry Jas to get off the bell topic again...I'm sure we could start a "Dominican Wreck Thread" by itself eventually!
Can you ask Lobo if he got to the cathedral yet for pictures?

 

[elle]

In regards to the church artifacts again...I've been getting messages asking about the diverse kinds of relics that these Spanish ships contained traveling across the seas.
Every chaplain did carry his own church pieces or alter set with him to give mass during the voyage.
But I think what is admirable is how devoted the Spanish people were to their religion and how much faith they possessed.
It was the passengers of distinction who carried the most "powerful" relics.
It was said that the Viceroy traveling aboard the Concepcion to New Spain had a thorn from Christ's crown and one of St. Andrew's fingers. These were carried in his personal baggage for protection.
There is no doubt in my mind that religious objects exist on every Spanish wreck...maybe only being small crosses that the sailors wore...but those are precious items also!

 

[Smithbrown]

No, but I met Sam Turner many years ago when he was living in the UK

Smithbrown

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Smith: I have just spent a fascinating period reading that thesis. I loved it, but curiously enough, even though I am an unabashed firearm nut, I wasn't aware of just how far advanced they were in breech loading canon in those days.

However they must have swabbed the barrel and breech out after each shot or so since the accumulation of black powder fouling would increase the breach and barrel pressures greatly, plus making the handling of the powder chamber extremely difficult to put in or to remove.
~~~~~~~~~~


ELLE Luv: since some of those powder chambers weighed 300 # the women of those days must have been, err, ah, a bit stout. Easy to see who ruled the roost. sigh.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Jason, still waiting for that story !

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello Laura,

First of all, I did not forget it but I was extremely busy last week so I could not go to see Mercedes Church in Santo Domingo last weekend a I thought but I will go there this Friday, the day after tomorrow. I will let you know and if I manage to do some photos, I will paste them here as well.

Regarding some ships from the fleet of Frey Nicolas de Ovando that you mentioned that were supposed to wreck o Saona Island, it was actually so called "Bobadilla fleet" under the command of Torres. On the 27th of June of 1502 there were 32 ships in this fleet (some historian state that there were 28, respectively 30 ships) ready to sail for Spain with Francisco Bobadilla, some of Taino chieftains (casiques), rebel Rolan and incredible treasures on board. According to historical documents, almost half of the treasures including this famous gold nugget (.....the biggest one ever seen....) that had been found shortly before by a native Indian woman on the shore of Haina River about five miles west of Santo Domingo, was loaded on flag ship called "El Dorado". Christopher Columbus arrived to Santo Domingo harbor exactly at that time asking for the permission to enter the harbor with his small fleet but his petition was refused by Nicolas Ovando. Columbus sailed quickly off in direction to Puerto Viejo and he sent a message asking the Commander Torres not to sail and wait because huge hurricane was coming. The arrogant commander and ships' captains did not hear the warning of experienced Admiral and set sail. After only 48 hours of sailing when the ships were about to turn in Mona Channel the fleet was surprised by extremely strong hurricane that smashed into the fleet. The most of the ships sank within the first hours. According to the declarations of very few survivors they …never seen such a fury of the nature ……”El Dorado” was lost with everybody on board and with all its precious cargo. Some of the ships were driven to the eastern shore where they were broken into pieces in sharp coral reefs in shallow waters. It is said that some of them were wrecked on the reefs of Saona Islands as well but in spite of the fact that “El Dorado” and the rest of the “Bobadilla fleet” have been target of several treasure hunting operations, nothing has been found till now.

Best regards,
Lobo

 

[Panfilo]

I don’t know if you people have seen the Spanish film about the book “La Carta Esferica” which I just finished watching, regarding the search for a Jesuit shipwreck Dei Gloria. It reminded me about Jason’s bell and this thread. A must see for Elle for sure! It's based on the book by the famous Spanish writer Arturo Perez Reverte whose fascinating book on Trafalgar I just finished reading also.

http://videos.cinemavip.com/informaciondecontenido.php?con=282

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good evening Ladies & Gentlemen: regarding your lovely bell Jason, here in Alamos, the church has several bells one of the largest is used for the mass calls. But, unlike most that I have seen in movies etc, it is a grounded bell.

They deliberately allowed one lip of the bell to touch the bell tower, thus eliminating the sonorous tone. When it is rung it goes clunk. At about 5 in the morning the wake up first call sounds like an old fashioned garbage collector playing with your metal garbage can.

When I was working on the clock in the tower for them, I offered to free the bell, but was quickly overridden. The call is a series of quick clunks, terminated with the appropriate final series of clonks indicating which call in the series it was, one, two, or three.

A suggestion, check the lip of your bell to see if it is worn on a lip, if so, it obviously was a used bell.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. ELLE luv, when they built the tower, all of the women in town donated one plate of their most prized china. These plates were set in the side of the tower as parallel rings around the tower. Unfortunately, during the rev, many were shot out by the revolutionaries, plus a few dinks in the bells.

 

[elle]

Dear Lobo...thank you for taking the time to explain the "Bobadilla fleet."

Panfilo...that movie sounds like a good one to watch
I'll have to try to locate it in my neck of the woods!

And my dear friend Jose...you never cease to amaze me with your bright ideas
A worn lip of the bell could be an extremely valuable clue!
Hopefully Jas will be studying the artifact again inch by inch for any sign of distinct usage.
By the way, the bell tower in your town would have been a museum in itself with all the valuable china which was donated.

 

[Bobadilla]

Dear Laura,

Finally I went to see the church of Mercedes in the Colonial City of Santo Domingo yesterday. The church is generally closed, they open it just from time to time from 4 PM and I did not have time to stay there so long. Anyway, I was surprised that there were THREE bells in the tower of the church! Each one was of different size and shape - as you can see in the attached photo - but definitely the smallest one from them is still ten times bigger that "our" bell found in the ocean. I asked people around about the history but nobody knew, I am planning to go to the Natinal Archive this week to find out more if possible. So my humble opinion is that our bell "Maria 1639(5)" was not destined for this church because the tower of the church had been most probably constructed before they ordered the bell so they should know the dimensions.

Later in the afternoon I will post you also two bells on the tower of the first Cathedral built in the New World that stands on the Columbus Square in Santo Domingo. They are of the same size as these two ones from Mercedes church.

Best regards for now,
Lobo

 

[Bobadilla]

Sorry for the quality of the photo, I did not have my camera, it was borroved one.....shameful, I know.....Sorry......

Lobo

 

[sasnz]

Hey scuba finder,

How many cannon are with the wreck, the suggestion that there is cannon there is more interesting to me than the bell. Sounds like a very interesting site indeed, I will be very very surprised if you dont find some amount of coin or gold. have you raised any of the cannon yet. just out of curiosity and i appreciate you may not wish to say but what sort of depth are you working here?

sasnz

 

[elle]

Thank you, Lobo, for venturing out to take the photo.
The picture turned out fine. It is interesting to note the different ways used to fasten bells.
If iron was used, like in your picture, there would definately be marks of usage on this type of artifact.
The rawhide fastening, as in the picture below, would be used...I'm assuming...on the smaller bells.