Nice coin - but is it genuine atocha?

[Km82]

Hi,

I bought a necklace with what I thought was a nice old coin. Then I was curious and googled it, found atocha - then found out there were many fakes. im in Australia and had not heard of these shipwreck coins before!

So, I suppose I'm asking for help determining if what I've bought is a genuine Atocha (in your opinion - not as an appraiser) based on your knowledge or if it is a replica.

Either way, I'm not upset if it isn't genuine - I think the pendant itself is attractive & seller wasn't representing it as authentic atocha.

Thanks in advance

 

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[Rigo]

I would be glad to research it for you but I have been so busy with my site lately. Just from taking a quick look, it does look authentic to me. Has what looks to be normal wear and seems like real silver as well. Best of luck.

 

[Iron Patch]

You lost me how you are making a connection between what you bought and the Atocha.


My opinion of that sale is it's nothing more than someone (definitely not a professional) being crafty by putting a hammered silver coin in a bezel and probably marking the price up by $100.... depending on what the coin is, and if the bezel is actually gold and not just plated. This is much more a jewelry item than anything of historical significance, at least from what I am seeing.

 

[Jason in Enid]

If there is no certificate of authenticity from the Fisher museum, it's not real "Atocha" coin. the price is another spoiler. The cost of recovered Atocha coins are in the thousands, not a couple hundred.

 

[Km82]

I would be glad to research it for you but I have been so busy with my site lately. Just from taking a quick look, it does look authentic to me. Has what looks to be normal wear and seems like real silver as well. Best of luck.

Thanks - I don't have any experience with this sort of thing except that it did look like real silver and the gold has a proper hallmark. If you did get a chance to look into it - I would be very grateful!

You lost me how you are making a connection between what you bought and the Atocha.

My opinion of that sale is it's nothing more than someone (definitely not a professional) being crafty by putting a hammered silver coin in a bezel and probably marking the price up by $100.... depending on what the coin is, and if the bezel is actually gold and not just plated. This is much more a jewelry item than anything of historical significance, at least from what I am seeing.

Hi, the connection is purely on the design on the coin - in my online searches the atocha coins (genuine or replica) most match the design - shield on one side and four quarters with lion/castle. What this one lacks (apart from certificate) is actual text on the coin that would identify it- but it could be a legitimate coin with that information worn away over time.

I DID buy it as a jewelery item I'm not expecting it to be a thousand dollar coin - just curious to see what you all thought. Thanks for your comment!

If there is no certificate of authenticity from the Fisher museum, it's not real "Atocha" coin. the price is another spoiler. The cost of recovered Atocha coins are in the thousands, not a couple hundred.

Ok. Do you think there is ever the possibility that a genuine coin could have been passed through several hands and parted from it's certificate? I suppose it's a long bow to draw. I don't know why but my intuition tells me it is a genuine "old coin" - perhaps just not one of the atocha recovered ones.

 

[Diver_Down]

It's a cast fake and not a good one at that. Note the numerous bubbles and dimples.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Well, it's possible that it could be real and the certificate has been lost but I seriously doubt it. There were millions of those types of coins minted. It could be a real coin, but it would have to be taken out of the bezel and examined by an expert.

 

[Jason in Enid]

It's a cast fake and not a good one at that. Note the numerous bubbles and dimples.

I think you're right, I hadn't looked that closely at it. The more I look at it, the more "wrong" it looks.

 

[Km82]

It's a cast fake and not a good one at that. Note the numerous bubbles and dimples.

I think you're right, I hadn't looked that closely at it. The more I look at it, the more "wrong" it looks.

Thanks for your comments & time.

Oh well, i suspected as such - I don't mind though because I didn't even know about these atocha coins when I bought it! (I.e. didn't buy it thinking it was anything other than a design in silver) has been interesting learning about the shipwreck and discovering the world of coin collecting - some lovely stuff.

Bit annoying that it is indeed a replica of a known coin - id rather it was just a random design!
The latest things I found tend to suggest some of the fisher coins are now being contested as fakes, even with certificates - he's been sued apparently by some collectors - Sunken Treasure's Sinking Fortunes; 'X' No Longer Marks the Spot For Governments or Investors - New York Times

Kim Fisher, Mel's son, said the other half of Treasure Salvors' $1.7 million budget comes from selling artifacts and coins, most of which come with a certificate of authenticity signed by Mr. Fisher, a marketing device that elevates $7 in silver bullion to an $1,800 keepsake. Of 90,000 marketable Atocha coins, all but 3,000 have been sold.

 

[Iron Patch]

Thanks for your comments & time.

Oh well, i suspected as such - I don't mind though because I didn't even know about these atocha coins when I bought it! (I.e. didn't buy it thinking it was anything other than a design in silver) has been interesting learning about the shipwreck and discovering the world of coin collecting - some lovely stuff.

Bit annoying that it is indeed a replica of a known coin - id rather it was just a random design!
The latest things I found tend to suggest some of the fisher coins are now being contested as fakes, even with certificates - he's been sued apparently by some collectors - Sunken Treasure's Sinking Fortunes; 'X' No Longer Marks the Spot For Governments or Investors - New York Times

Kim Fisher, Mel's son, said the other half of Treasure Salvors' $1.7 million budget comes from selling artifacts and coins, most of which come with a certificate of authenticity signed by Mr. Fisher, a marketing device that elevates $7 in silver bullion to an $1,800 keepsake. Of 90,000 marketable Atocha coins, all but 3,000 have been sold.

A couple things.....


If it's a fake coin, and I don't really doubt it is, it's not an oh well moment... it's a you've been scammed and fight back one. Your positive attitude is how these people do this over and over and over again making thousands of dollars. I see the sale is pending, so if it's you, you should get out. If it's not you, and your coin looks exactly like the one for sale then without a shadow of a doubt it's a cast fake because the real ones do not look exactly alike.

The 2nd thing you should know is there's really no difference between shipwreck coins and the same type coins you can buy on ebay every day for far less. I would NEVER buy a shipwreck coin without some form of documentation and the higher the price, the more credible the papers better be. I say that based on buying coins steady for the last 12 years including some shipwreck stuff.

 

[Diver_Down]

Most definitely don't treat it as an Aw-Shucks moment. Your item might not even be silver. It very well could be cast pot metal with silver plate. If the sale is pending, then I would run from this "deal". If you want to buy a replica but want actual Atocha silver, than buy from Atocha1622.com. They don't hide what they do. They actually melt down Atocha bars and cast them in a replica coin design. They look a heck of a lot better and are much cheaper.

 

[Km82]

A couple things.....


If it's a fake coin, and I don't really doubt it is, it's not an oh well moment... it's a you've been scammed and fight back one. Your positive attitude is how these people do this over and over and over again making thousands of dollars. I see the sale is pending, so if it's you, you should get out. If it's not you, and your coin looks exactly like the one for sale then without a shadow of a doubt it's a cast fake because the real ones do not look exactly alike.

The 2nd thing you should know is there's really no difference between shipwreck coins and the same type coins you can buy on ebay every day for far less. I would NEVER buy a shipwreck coin without some form of documentation and the higher the price, the more credible the papers better be. I say that based on buying coins steady for the last 12 years including some shipwreck stuff.

Most definitely don't treat it as an Aw-Shucks moment. Your item might not even be silver. It very well could be cast pot metal with silver plate. If the sale is pending, then I would run from this "deal". If you want to buy a replica but want actual Atocha silver, than buy from Atocha1622.com. They don't hide what they do. They actually melt down Atocha bars and cast them in a replica coin design. They look a heck of a lot better and are much cheaper.

Thanks guys.

Provided its silver - Im ok with it being a 'fake' coin as I wasn't actually in the market for a coin - just thought it looked attractive.

I do feel like a bit of an idiot though as I have already paid for it and it's in transit. Should have asked here first. SIGH

I know you mentioned being scammed but in this case, it's more buyer beware - it's my fault - the seller wasn't saying it was a certain coin.

The worst bit is that I actually like it - imperfections and fakeness notwithstanding - but you mention it's a 'bad' cast and I'm just feeling like an idiot that I didn't pay more attention to the bubbles - I can see them now.

Ive emailed the seller about it and to confirm the silver content.

 

[Diver_Down]

The seller didn't say the "coin" came with a provenance, but they did emphasize that it was a coin. That alone is false. You edited your original post so there is no link to reference. But I do recall that in the first few sentences, the seller mentions how that it is an ancient coin. I would guess that that it is 90 days ancient from it's cast mold. It takes time to ship from China to the seller.

 

[Km82]

The seller didn't say the "coin" came with a provenance, but they did emphasize that it was a coin. That alone is false. You edited your original post so there is no link to reference. But I do recall that in the first few sentences, the seller mentions how that it is an ancient coin. I would guess that that it is 90 days ancient from it's cast mold. It takes time to ship from China to the seller.

That's true - they did say "ancient" coin - I removed the link in case the seller found this thread by searching. I will wait and see how they respond - I've sent a query through. Aspects of it do appear vintage (type of gold setting, how it has been worn and hallmark) but it doesnt mean the coin itself is genuine. It could just be an 'older' fake. I honestly don't believe, from the rest of the thing they are selling, that this was a deliberate fabrication by the seller - it looks like estate/vintage jewelery that they have bought and are on-selling. Apart from claiming the coin itself is really old, it's going to be hard for me to prove it ISN'T - if you know what I mean? I've done an extensive trawl of Internet re fake atocha coins in settings particularly and I can't find anything else that resembles this.

 

[rwd mo]

If you havent been to the Mel Fisher museum in fla. Was in key west- you missed a montumental moment in time. Was there a few times and met them all and seen the hundreds of silver ingots sitting around the walls on the floor,What a wonderful moment for me .There was some gold ingots that you could hold in your hands.And just to see Mel and his hired crew in real life was a wish come true. rwd mo

 

[Diver_Down]

That's true - they did say "ancient" coin - I removed the link in case the seller found this thread by searching. I will wait and see how they respond - I've sent a query through. Aspects of it do appear vintage (type of gold setting, how it has been worn and hallmark) but it doesnt mean the coin itself is genuine. It could just be an 'older' fake. I honestly don't believe, from the rest of the thing they are selling, that this was a deliberate fabrication by the seller - it looks like estate/vintage jewelery that they have bought and are on-selling. Apart from claiming the coin itself is really old, it's going to be hard for me to prove it ISN'T - if you know what I mean? I've done an extensive trawl of Internet re fake atocha coins in settings particularly and I can't find anything else that resembles this.

One of the best ways to pass off fakes is to place a bezel around it. It conceals a cast seam that will be along the edge. Bust it out of the bezel, and I guarantee that you'll see the tell-tale seam. The seller itself might not know that it was a fake, but it doesn't change what it is. The bezel itself might be the only thing worth the $180 price.

 

[Iron Patch]

"Rare Silver Hand Stamped Ancient Coin 14k Gold Pendant"


Not rare, not hand stamped, not ancient, being silver is questionable, and if I was a betting person I'd bet plated 14k.

Part of the description reads.... "The coin is awesome, it appears to be an ancient hand stamped coin. I am unaware of the origin or exactly what is represented. The stamps on the front look like ancient hieroglyphic and the back looks like an ancient structure." <<<<<<<<<<< That my friend is a fraud disclaimer, and if you write voicing your displeasure with the purchase, I GUARANTEE that's what they will refer to... which is rather funny considering the title (which no doubt drew you in) doesn't really question anything at all.


I assume you paid with a credit card so if they will not let you return it you can take matters into your own hands. Just mention "charge back" and "fraud investigation" and I'm sure Tanya will be more than happy to give you your money back. I really hope you don't look at it as a lesson learned because you will be setting up the next guy to be taken advantage of. When you're a seller you have a responsibility to make sure your items are authentic, and if you do make a mistake, you gladly refund the money.... so maybe you can ask nicely to return it and see what happens, but if they refuse, well then it's game on.


Here is what you probably got for a bezel, and when added to a coin that has no value because it's a modern fake, that means you paid $189 for something that is worth $12. They might have paid $3 for the coin, so their profit was $174.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coin-Bezel-...008417?pt=Fashion_Jewelry&hash=item20c475cea1



PS: This is from her page, so I think she will refund you. Obviously it's not completely true, but my gut says she'll take care of you... and a guarantee is a guarantee. I guess it is possible it's an honest mistake, but that's only based on the quality of the other items. Fake coins in plated bezels is definitely nothing new.

Our Service Pledge To You:
I guarantee the authenticity and quality of all my items, every piece of jewelry I list is researched and tested thoroughly. I take pride in the honesty of my descriptions and my photographs along with the Ruby Lane return policy. My photo's are up-close and personal, I focus on the piece of jewelry only, so you can see exactly what you are buying, from all angles.

 

[Km82]

Again, thank you all for taking the time to help me assess it - and I think you've convinced me to ask for a refund. I'm not happy - and, yes, arguably I should have been more astute at the time but I do think it was a bit misleading, especially seeing the eBay bezel link - wow. Seems like the seller is most likely genuinely not aware (dealing in jewelery mostly not coins) but I'm hoping will be amenable to refund/exchange.

Thanks - appreciate it. Will let you know how I get on!

 

[Iron Patch]

Again, thank you all for taking the time to help me assess it - and I think you've convinced me to ask for a refund. I'm not happy - and, yes, arguably I should have been more astute at the time but I do think it was a bit misleading, especially seeing the eBay bezel link - wow. Seems like the seller is most likely genuinely not aware (dealing in jewelery mostly not coins) but I'm hoping will be amenable to refund/exchange.

Thanks - appreciate it. Will let you know how I get on!

Yes, most jewelry people wouldn't have a clue if a coin was genuine, and I see enough posts on here where the poster's local coin guy doesn't even have it right. There's just so much going on with that listing it's hard to imagine it's legit.

If the coin is fake, and it looks that way, there's zero chance the bezel will be solid gold. As I said before once I got more into my post, reading her page it does seem like someone who will probably give you a refund without too much trouble. If I had to guess she's buying ebay items and then listing them at Ruby Lane, and if so she might not know the difference and be a victim herself. It's hard to really know what the truth is, but the bottom line is if you're not happy get your money back.


PS: If you like the look do it yourself! If you find Asian hammered coins at all appealing you can pick up a legit old nice looking one quite cheap, and then just buy one of those plated bezels. It wouldn't even cost you $50, maybe much less but depends on what coin you buy. It would be more fun too picking your own. Years ago I was tempted to do it, but wanted a gold hammered coin which was a great idea until I figured out what this little project would have cost me.

 

[Iron Patch]

Here's an example of a coin you could pick up fairly cheap and make your own. There's certainly no shortage of neat stuff to choose from. And for the record, it's definitely not from the Atocha.