Odds And Ends

[bean man]

Odd's And End's

Looks like we're shut down for the year. I already showed everything descent we found this year, so now I guess it's time for some beano's. Here's just a few.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Upgraded Night Vision Monocular Digital Infrared Monocular Telescope for 100% Darkness with 8X Zoom - Grab it through Amazon!

[t-bucket]

Re: Odd's And End's

Very nice,I do the same thing on hammer stones to see if they were right or left handed.Cool finds !!!!!!

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

Thanks T.

 

[Adena_man]

Re: Odd's And End's

The round one looks like a hammerstone. I like the bowl-shaped one. Cool finds!



Good luck!


Brian

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

Thanks Bri!

 

[pickaway]

Re: Odd's And End's

Right on bean!

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Odd's And End's

I hope the pictures of you holding the rock with the divits isn't meant to show how the thumb and or fingers wore the rock down from use or how it was "made" to fit just right in the hand! You've found too many things and made too much progress over the past year to revert back to these rocks as artifacts bean!!!!!!!!!!!!! That rock may be a hammerstone but even if it is the "wear" spots are natural and not made by human hands as resting spots for the thumb and/or fingers. I think most of the other pieces are just rocks also, perhaps we could take a look at them one at a time and make a group discussion out of them for all of us to learn from? What do you think they may have been used for?

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

I believe you are wrong about the hammerstone. I believe the divets were made for comfort. The omar, I think was utilized. The pestle thing with it, I'm not sure about. The quartz rock, some kind of chopper. The sandstone scraper, the GRANITE knife and a mano grinder type thing. Come on Cannon, don't think so much like a white man.

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Odd's And End's

I guarentee you that the divits were not put there intentionally for comfort. Guarentee. I have made ground stone tools by traditional peck and grind methods so I am familiar with what it takes. Likewise I have flintknapped for many years and am familiar with the tools of the trade so to speak. That being said, there is absolutely no way any Native American was going to spend the time to shape a hammer stone with places for his finger because 1) it's not needed, it just doesn't improve the function of the tool anywhere as much as you think it would. When you multiply that by the fact that it takes a fair amount of time and effort to creat something like that it just makes it impossible to be honest. Now don't get me wrong here-! If I had to choose between what you found and another river cobble and yours fit in my hand better I would use that one over the other BUT that's coincidence, the divits are not made to fit the thumb and fingers. If you don't believe me go and make one like that by traditional methods, learn to flintknapp, and use both the altered hammerstone and smooth hammerstone, you would then see that it makes no/so little difference as to not be worth it.
As for some of the other stuff... I can't even figure out what you think is a pestle? There's nothing close to one in the picture. Sandstone makes very poor scrapers to say the least.. and what you have is a piece of sandstone but not a scraper. Look for evidence in the pieces themselves.... don't revert to your imagaination.
The quartz piece looks like it may have been used, that's the only one you have a shot on convincing me on.

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Odd's And End's

I forgot to mention the granite knife.... knifes, with rare exception, were flaked.... which leaves behind tell tale signs, mostly concoidal fracturing scars and the like. This rock you have shows absolutely NO signs of having been worked at all. Tell me why you think it is, I will listen to all you have to say with an open mind but refuse to use nothing but imagination when looking at artifacts.. make your case to me with scientific observations!!

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

I'm not sure what you mean by scientific observations. If that was what your arguments against these pieces was, well, I thought they were kind of weak. They sound like opinions based on observations, but still opinions. There is really no way for me to prove if they are artifacts. Just like someone really can't prove if their point is real or fake. I figured if I posted iffy stuff, other people might have picked up something like it and we could help each other figure some of this stuff out. Thousands of natives lived for thousands of years, right here around my creeks. You will never convince me, that the only thing they left laying around was polished hardstone and finely knapped chert.

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Odd's And End's

Okay, you have me confused now. By scientific observations I mean evidence- tell me why you have any reason to believe these rocks are anything. My "opinions" are based on evidence, physical, tangible evidence. Also from experience.
Now if I post pictures of my artifacts, which I have many times, I can point out a long list of things (besides it being obvious) of why they are, they all show signs, they show scratches, chips, abrasions, etc. Yours are based on... because you think so. That just doesn't work.\
You can't prove these rocks are artifacts because to be blunt, they are NOT artifacts... except perhaps that Quartz as it does look like there might be some flaking scars on the edge and it was a common material to make points/blades from.
I am NOT trying to convince you that the only artifacts left behind after thousands of years of Native Americans living here are polished stone and finely chipped stone artifacts... but I will try to convince you that very nearly all artifacts that have been altered in one form or another (accounts for about 98% of the total) will show signs of having been worked. Now if a Native picked up a random rock and threw it at a bird I suppose in some abstract way it would be an artifact and wouldn't show any signs of use... but artifacts in the traditional sense...like the type you mention, pestles, knives, etc... are easy to tell apart from regular rocks because there are obvious signs of them being altered. The rocks you have posted here don't have any obvious signs of being altered, they are a pestle or knife or whatever simply because you say so with nothing for evidence. I'm not trying to be rude or fight with you at all bean, I like you, I like having you on here as a very active member of the forum, I hope you don't get mad at me for all this but at the same time I don't want to watch the spread of missinformation and not step in. There could be somebody new to the hobby see your post of "artifacts" and get started on the wrong foot right off the bat.

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

Your not making me mad! OK, a little bit, but that's my problem. I think you can see the wear marks pretty good on the nutting stone, hammerstone and mano. You know they used sandstone abraders, and that shape is not natural. The knife thing, I don't know what they would have used that for, but I do not believe it to be natural. I would be interested in seeing some of your iffies. Surely you have some.

 

[Cannonman17]

Re: Odd's And End's

Good, I don't want you ticked off. The nutting stone.... could be. I don't see any wear marks really though... the stone laying next to it definitely has nothing to do with it's not a miniture mortar and pestle... nutting stone, could be. What you have to remember though is stones like this are also naturally formed.. can't remember what they are called. If it had been made that way intentionally there should still be some peck marks visible. None the less I will concede that it could be. Loooooong shot IMO but could be. The hammer stone... doesn't look like a hammerstone to me, again could be but on the ones that I have found (I'll try to find one to post a pic of) there's no doubt, thousands of tiny pit marks on generally one or two areas of the stone. The mano is the same... they are usually pretty well formed and smoothed to a point where it becomes obvious they were ground down by use.. this... while it could be just doesn't appear to be and I would be willing to bet that if you look at the surface under intense magnification there probably is just random marks and not the linear striations that you would expect to find on a mano. The granite piece... I can't even stretch my imagination far enough for... there is just no evidence at all of having been altered in any shape way or form.. you still haven't given me a reason why you think it is... The sandstone... why do you think that's not natural? There are a lot of sandstone formations around this area and there are tens of thousands of odd shaped pieces laying about...I'm positive they aren't all abraders. Now I have seen abraders made of sandstone but the only ones I have seen and have been confident in have had one or more major/minor grooves gouged into them from rubbing another material, stone, bone, or wood most likely, across the surface for one reason or another. I will take a look about the house and try to find some iffies but I really don't think I can come up with much to be honest...either I find an artifact or a rock and the rocks I let out in the field. The only real exception being some chunks of chert that have fractures but I can't tell if they are from human hands or natural and when that's the case... where I'm trying to tell if a fist sized rock was broken once by some water freezing in a crack or by a Native hitting it once with another stone two thousand years ago then I don't stress over it and I leave it out there. I will look around the house for some things to scan to show you what I'm talking about if you don't mind. It's good to get in a lively discussion like this once in a while bean- thanks!

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

Thank you Cannon. I think the Hammerstone, might be a grinding stone. You mentioned chunks of chert. I would be interested in seeing them. I have some chunk chert tools that you are going to love. Anyways, I do realize we need to keep a healthy skepticism about this stuff, but I don't think you'll let me forget that.

 

[Atlantis0077]

Re: Odd's And End's

Hey Beanman,

Looking at your stuff. I have to concur with Cannonman on most of it. Looking at the first object the, the one with the large hole and the "L" shaped piece of rock that you are using as some sort of pestle. First of all its rather small....now this isn't always true, but normally for them to spend enough time on a piece to grind a hole, its larger and also more uniform in shape...your rock isn't uniform on the back side. Also for a piece to have had a hole that large ground into it and for the other piece to have been used as a pestle there would be a much greater degree of polish on both pieces than they have. My opinion of course....but I have looked at a lot of stuff in 30 odd years of searching.

The tan sand stone appearing piece I really cant tell much about. Sandstone was sometimes used as a hone or scraper for removing the last stages of "meat" from hides during the tanning process. These are usually made from "tight" sandstone...not the crumbly type that sheds sand during use.

The white quartz piece could be an artifact. If you found it in context with other chips or broken points or tools I would say yes, if not then no. Quartz like that is often found with "chips and angles" showing....such is the nature of the geology....it is fractured throughout and normally not used for point manufacture for this reason. You do find a few, normally smaller or more crudely made points, though there are exceptions.

Of all your pieces the rounder reddish tan stone looks more interesting to me. If I found that here in one of my sites I would call it a hammerstone. Look for impact fractures on the terminal ends...small speckles of lighter material cause by impact with another piece....its normally unmistakable if a piece has these marks in the right places.

The blacker round stone with the small divots on the sides appears to me to be just an interesting rock....yes you can fit it to your hand, but most any roundish rock can be made to fit your hand. Look for more polish on a piece...grinding down to have holes or depressions in a stone takes time and effort and results in a very smooth surface, not a deeply pitted one such as your stone has.

Lastly, the long black piece that appears to perhaps be petrified wood. That would be a rock as well...no sign of use on it at all.

Not trying to dash your enthusiasm...you are finding some good stuff along the way, just want to make you aware of the fact that not everything that looks good is actually an artifact.

I put a few photos of hammerstones and nut stones on. Look at the holes in them and you can see the polish...also the more substantial nature of the pieces. Hammerstones for the most part are hand sized.

Happy Hunting,

Atlantis

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

Hi Atlantis,

I don't know if you saw post on Omars. They are a natural formed,pitted, grey stone. I have dozens. A few appear to be utilized. This is my best one. I believe the hole was enlarged from use, and clearly shows a circular wear pattern. Remember, I have a lot of Omars to compare to. The tan stone clearly shows the impact fractures in the one picture. You got some nice stuff in your pictures there, but I got to tell you, I think my stuff looks a lot more like an artifact, then some of that stuff. A bunch of those look like plain old river rocks, and show no sign at all.

 

[Atlantis0077]

Re: Odd's And End's

LOL,

Overconfident Jedi..............

I never look in rivers....too many distractions.

Keep an open eye and temper the imagination...at least on relics.

Atlantis

 

[bean man]

Re: Odd's And End's

All those years of digging. You have found hundreds of points, and really, very few other tools. Just seems a little strange. Oh, by the way. I wasn't into Star Wars.

 

[Atlantis0077]

Re: Odd's And End's

LOL,


No sir....all those years of digging I have found thousands of points....tons of tools, pottery, grinding stones and wannabees. Would hardly say few tools as normally you find more of that sort of thing than you do points, but because something looks interesting doesn't make it a tool.

I could fill a small museum with the stuff I have gathered. That's why my own counsel will I take on artifacts. Much to learn still........experience and wise counsel are your best sources of information. Keep digging and you will be rewarded.

Shame about Starwars...you don't know what you missed.

Atlantis