MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
The countdown is on Jeff, If Spain decides to settleJeff K said:
on how they go back? ship them, of fly them backfirst class, the same way they were taken.
Ossy
Odyssey Marine Exploration sinks after judge rules $500 million treasure belongs
- Thread starter Mudpie
- Start date
on how they go back? ship them, of fly them backfirst class, the same way they were taken.
Ossy
ivan salis said:
prospector40 said:
Finders fees? Recovery of costs? Get real, guys. If somebody breaks into your house and takes your stuff, and he is arrested and found guilty, do you have to cover the expenses associated with his burglary before you get your goods back? That's what the court thinks so far about Odyssey's actions. I am sure Odyssey understands the rules, and therefore the risks.
Mariner
SamDaniels
Tenderfoot
All governments are like condoms, they make you feel safe while you get screwed. Odyssey made a mistake. They dotted all their "i'"s and crossed their "t"'s and trusted the government courts. That 'll screw you everytime. Trust no one, especially governments or large corporations. SamDaniels
diverlynn
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Re: Odyssey Marine Exploration sinks after judge rules $500 million treasure bel
Heard from my host in Peru, they have 12 days to respond and they have plans to. We will see what they say.
diverlynn
Heard from my host in Peru, they have 12 days to respond and they have plans to. We will see what they say.
diverlynn
jeff k
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billinstuart
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Re: Odyssey Marine Exploration sinks after judge rules $500 million treasure bel
So why shouldn't Peru be entitled to have it's stolen items returned? If indeed the courts feel the find belongs to Spain, then Peru should have it returned to them as reparations for the destruction the Spanish inquisitors caused. If Egyptian antiquities must be returned, why not Peruvian?
The LAST people to receive the find should be the Spanish.
So why shouldn't Peru be entitled to have it's stolen items returned? If indeed the courts feel the find belongs to Spain, then Peru should have it returned to them as reparations for the destruction the Spanish inquisitors caused. If Egyptian antiquities must be returned, why not Peruvian?
The LAST people to receive the find should be the Spanish.
JahMan2003
Jr. Member
Regardless of the outcome, the head of Odyssey Gregg Stemm is making good cash in my mind (if 350,000 per year on a profet losing venture is acceptable to your standards).
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article6328172.ece
More of the same-- scamming investores, whether its wall street or treasure hunting.
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article6328172.ece
More of the same-- scamming investores, whether its wall street or treasure hunting.
jeff k
Bronze Member
Judge Merryday has four options at this point.
1. He could agree with Judge Pizzo's recommendation.
2. He could disagree with Judge Pizzo's recommendation.
3. He could call for an evidentiary hearing.
4. He could defer his decision on FSIA until trial.
1. He could agree with Judge Pizzo's recommendation.
2. He could disagree with Judge Pizzo's recommendation.
3. He could call for an evidentiary hearing.
4. He could defer his decision on FSIA until trial.
CanadianTrout
Hero Member
So would now be a good time to purchase Odyssey stock? What with it being at a 6 year low and all...
I believe in Odyssey and what they do. With all their "leads", technology, abilities, is it not safe to assume they will make another big discovery at some point?
I believe in Odyssey and what they do. With all their "leads", technology, abilities, is it not safe to assume they will make another big discovery at some point?
Moe (fl)
Hero Member
It would be hard to believe that Spain will get 100% of this treasure just because they claim it was one of their Spanish galleons.
The treasure should be divided in 3 parts.
30% for Odyssey for recovery and finding the treasure
50% for Peru/Bolivia
20% for Spain
If Spain wants to play fair they should pay reparations to Peru/Bolivia for the millions of indigineous people that died mining the silver at Potosi!
Here are some historical facts about the silver that was extracted from Peru/Bolivia during the Spanish colonial era.
"Around two billion ounces of silver were extracted from the city’s Cerro Rico (Rich Mountain) during the Spanish colonial era. Cerro Rico silver paved Potosi’s streets, fuelled the European Renaissance and helped fund the “Invincible Armada”, the Spanish fleet that sailed against Elizabethan England in 1588.
In 1572, in colonial times, Spanish Viceroy Francisco de Toledo created a system of forced labour called “la mita”. Every seven years, for a period of four months, all males between 18 and 50 were ordered to work in the mines. They were paid a pittance and rarely saw the light of day. Eighty per cent of the male population of the 16 provinces of the viceroyalty of Peru died in these conditions. “Every peso coin minted in Potosi has cost the life of 10 Indians who have died in the depths of the mines,” wrote Fray Antonio de la Calancha in 1638.
It is from Potosí that most of the silver shipped through the Spanish Main came. According to official records, 45,000 tons of pure silver were mined from Cerro Rico from 1556 to 1783. Of this total, 7,000 tons went to the Spanish monarchy. Indian labour, forced by Francisco de Toledo, Count of Oropesa through the traditional Incan mita institution of contributed labor, came to die by the thousands, not simply from exposure and brutal labor, but by mercury poisoning: in the patio process the silver-ore, having been crushed to powder by hydraulic machinery, was cold-mixed with mercury and trodden to an amalgam by the native workers with their bare feet. [2] The mercury was then driven off by heating, producing deadly vapors.
To compensate for the diminishing indigenous labor force, the colonists made a request in 1608 to the Crown in Madrid to begin allowing for the importation of 1500 to 2000 African slaves per year. An estimated total of 30,000 African slaves were taken to Potosí throughout the colonial era. African slaves were also forced to work in the Casa de la Moneda as acémilas humanas (human mules). Since mules would die after couple of months pushing the mills, the colonists replaced the four mules with twenty African slaves. (Angola Maconde 1999)
In 1672, a mint was established to coin silver and water reservoirs were built to fulfill the growing population's needs. At that time more than eighty six churches were built and the city's population increased to nearly 200,000, making it one of the largest and wealthiest cities in Latin America and in the world.
After 1800 the silver mines became depleted, making tin the main product. This eventually led to a slow economic decline. Still, the mountain continues to be mined for silver to this day. Due to poor worker conditions (lack of protective equipment from the constant inhalation of dust), the miners still have a short life expectancy with most of them contracting silicosis and dying around 40 years of age.
It is estimated that, in the past years of indigenous labour, roughly 8 million Indians died, "eaten" by the Rich Hill."
The treasure should be divided in 3 parts.
30% for Odyssey for recovery and finding the treasure
50% for Peru/Bolivia
20% for Spain
If Spain wants to play fair they should pay reparations to Peru/Bolivia for the millions of indigineous people that died mining the silver at Potosi!
Here are some historical facts about the silver that was extracted from Peru/Bolivia during the Spanish colonial era.
"Around two billion ounces of silver were extracted from the city’s Cerro Rico (Rich Mountain) during the Spanish colonial era. Cerro Rico silver paved Potosi’s streets, fuelled the European Renaissance and helped fund the “Invincible Armada”, the Spanish fleet that sailed against Elizabethan England in 1588.
In 1572, in colonial times, Spanish Viceroy Francisco de Toledo created a system of forced labour called “la mita”. Every seven years, for a period of four months, all males between 18 and 50 were ordered to work in the mines. They were paid a pittance and rarely saw the light of day. Eighty per cent of the male population of the 16 provinces of the viceroyalty of Peru died in these conditions. “Every peso coin minted in Potosi has cost the life of 10 Indians who have died in the depths of the mines,” wrote Fray Antonio de la Calancha in 1638.
It is from Potosí that most of the silver shipped through the Spanish Main came. According to official records, 45,000 tons of pure silver were mined from Cerro Rico from 1556 to 1783. Of this total, 7,000 tons went to the Spanish monarchy. Indian labour, forced by Francisco de Toledo, Count of Oropesa through the traditional Incan mita institution of contributed labor, came to die by the thousands, not simply from exposure and brutal labor, but by mercury poisoning: in the patio process the silver-ore, having been crushed to powder by hydraulic machinery, was cold-mixed with mercury and trodden to an amalgam by the native workers with their bare feet. [2] The mercury was then driven off by heating, producing deadly vapors.
To compensate for the diminishing indigenous labor force, the colonists made a request in 1608 to the Crown in Madrid to begin allowing for the importation of 1500 to 2000 African slaves per year. An estimated total of 30,000 African slaves were taken to Potosí throughout the colonial era. African slaves were also forced to work in the Casa de la Moneda as acémilas humanas (human mules). Since mules would die after couple of months pushing the mills, the colonists replaced the four mules with twenty African slaves. (Angola Maconde 1999)
In 1672, a mint was established to coin silver and water reservoirs were built to fulfill the growing population's needs. At that time more than eighty six churches were built and the city's population increased to nearly 200,000, making it one of the largest and wealthiest cities in Latin America and in the world.
After 1800 the silver mines became depleted, making tin the main product. This eventually led to a slow economic decline. Still, the mountain continues to be mined for silver to this day. Due to poor worker conditions (lack of protective equipment from the constant inhalation of dust), the miners still have a short life expectancy with most of them contracting silicosis and dying around 40 years of age.
It is estimated that, in the past years of indigenous labour, roughly 8 million Indians died, "eaten" by the Rich Hill."
Moe (fl) said:
I don't think you can assert that Spain is after the 'treasure'. After all Spain refused Odyssey's request to salvage the Mercedes in the first place. As judge Pizzo has pointed out in his recent judgment, Spain is trying to prevent anyone disturbing what is in effect a war grave. According to judge Pizzo the Mercedes was a Spanish navy frigate (not simply a Spanish galleon) which was sunk by a British naval squadron in an unprovoked act which caused Spain to declare war on Britain.
Spain is simply trying to stop Odyssey from benefiting from their unlawful act - that's all.
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Seafarer, First I would like to welcome you aboard TreasureNet!
Second, I would be interested in knowing just what Illegal act it is that you alledge that Odyssey Marine may have committed in this case. I was not aware that any criminal charges have been made against anyone in this case.
Tom
Second, I would be interested in knowing just what Illegal act it is that you alledge that Odyssey Marine may have committed in this case. I was not aware that any criminal charges have been made against anyone in this case.
Tom
billinstuart
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Re: Odyssey Marine Exploration sinks after judge rules $500 million treasure bel
I may be extreme, but I've lived in Florida long enough to fully understand the horrific damage the spanish caused in the new world. My problem is their attitude; It's the absolute arrogance of the Spanish to think they were beneficial in their plundering and pillaging of Americas ancient cultures. They then claim that any shipwreck anywhere in the world is theirs, and that anything stolen from the cultures they obliterated is also theirs.
Sorry, no sympathy for the plight of the "poor mistreated" Spanish and their ill gotten gains.
I may be extreme, but I've lived in Florida long enough to fully understand the horrific damage the spanish caused in the new world. My problem is their attitude; It's the absolute arrogance of the Spanish to think they were beneficial in their plundering and pillaging of Americas ancient cultures. They then claim that any shipwreck anywhere in the world is theirs, and that anything stolen from the cultures they obliterated is also theirs.
Sorry, no sympathy for the plight of the "poor mistreated" Spanish and their ill gotten gains.
architecad
Hero Member
Billin
Everything that you said about the past of what the Spaniard did is completely true but the past doesn't justify what you do in the present. The shipwreck hunter soon will disappears,or they will operate illegally because always somebody will come to you with some claim.
My point of view it's not fair that I find a gold coins, cache or whatever and come to me somebody that never contributed with me to try to makes some claim over the treasure.
Everything that you said about the past of what the Spaniard did is completely true but the past doesn't justify what you do in the present. The shipwreck hunter soon will disappears,or they will operate illegally because always somebody will come to you with some claim.
My point of view it's not fair that I find a gold coins, cache or whatever and come to me somebody that never contributed with me to try to makes some claim over the treasure.
architecad
Hero Member
Ossy
Jeff still hold a hope. I don't know what is his agenda with this case??
Ridiculous!!!wreckdiver1715 said:
Thanks for the welcome Tom. Under Spanish law (Article 324 of the Criminal Code) it is unlawful to interfere with or to damage a Spanish arqueological site. I believe that it may also be unlawful to disturb a war grave.
Judge Pizzo has determined that the "Black Swan" is the Spanish naval frigate the "Mercedes". Referring to the Mercedes he stated the following in his recent decision: "More than two hundred years have passed since the Mercedes exploded. Her place of rest and all those who perished with her that fateful day remained undisturbed for the centuries – until recently. International law recognizes the solemnity of their memorial, and Spain’s sovereign interests in preserving it. ...This Court’s adherence to those principles promotes reciprocal respect for our nation’s dead at sea".
G.I.B.
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Seafarer said:
That Spanish law sounds as if it is only a law enforceable within the country of Spain.
It would not logically apply to any instance outside Spain's borders.
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Spanish law is not applicable outside of Spain’s territorial waters, and would only apply if the Black Swan site was inside the 12 mile limit, and it is not. So Odyssey Marine broke no laws there.
Outside of any nations Territorial waters is considered International waters, and international salvage law does apply. And you are correct in that Sovereign Vessels lost in international waters are protected under international law.
While it is reasonable to assume today that the Black Swan site may indeed be that of the Mercedes. I think it would have been difficult to make that assumption with any reasonable degree of certainty a couple of years ago, given the lack of actual wreckage on the site. Odyssey Marine legally filed its salvage claim on that site along with a couple other sites prior to any salvage operation, and even invited the Spanish government to have an archeological representative on site as the recovery was being made. Again, no laws were broken by anyone.
Once the treasure was recovered, under international law Odyssey Marine became to legal custodian and charged with the responsibility to protect the recovery, and that they have done.
Under international salvage law, any party who believes that they have the right to claim ownership of all or part of the recovery may do so in the court where the original salvage claim is made. This can be done by any Government, Corporation, Insurance Company or individual who may believe that he can prove his case in an international court of law. Again, this is all just a part of the legal process established by many treaties over the centuries and incorporated into today’s international law. Still, no laws have been broken.
Spain has every right to claim Sovereign Immunity in this case, and they have made a strong case, and on the surface it may even appear to be an open and closed case. However, Odyssey too makes a strong case against Sovereign Immunity based on the legal definition of Sovereign Immunity as defined under international salvage law.
In any case, this case is far from over and I doubt we will see it resolved anytime soon. I don’t think it good or honorable for anyone to make disparaging remarks against either Spain or Odyssey Marine. I think it’s a good thing that we can all discuss the merits of both sides argument, as it is a very interesting and intriguing case that will ultimately establish some precedence for any future salvage cases under international law.
Outside of any nations Territorial waters is considered International waters, and international salvage law does apply. And you are correct in that Sovereign Vessels lost in international waters are protected under international law.
While it is reasonable to assume today that the Black Swan site may indeed be that of the Mercedes. I think it would have been difficult to make that assumption with any reasonable degree of certainty a couple of years ago, given the lack of actual wreckage on the site. Odyssey Marine legally filed its salvage claim on that site along with a couple other sites prior to any salvage operation, and even invited the Spanish government to have an archeological representative on site as the recovery was being made. Again, no laws were broken by anyone.
Once the treasure was recovered, under international law Odyssey Marine became to legal custodian and charged with the responsibility to protect the recovery, and that they have done.
Under international salvage law, any party who believes that they have the right to claim ownership of all or part of the recovery may do so in the court where the original salvage claim is made. This can be done by any Government, Corporation, Insurance Company or individual who may believe that he can prove his case in an international court of law. Again, this is all just a part of the legal process established by many treaties over the centuries and incorporated into today’s international law. Still, no laws have been broken.
Spain has every right to claim Sovereign Immunity in this case, and they have made a strong case, and on the surface it may even appear to be an open and closed case. However, Odyssey too makes a strong case against Sovereign Immunity based on the legal definition of Sovereign Immunity as defined under international salvage law.
In any case, this case is far from over and I doubt we will see it resolved anytime soon. I don’t think it good or honorable for anyone to make disparaging remarks against either Spain or Odyssey Marine. I think it’s a good thing that we can all discuss the merits of both sides argument, as it is a very interesting and intriguing case that will ultimately establish some precedence for any future salvage cases under international law.
WD1715,
You keep talking about the 12 nm limit, but a State's authority on issues such as shipwreck salvage extend through the contiguous zone, which is generally 24 nm. I don't think this makes any difference in the case of the Black Swan, but it might in the case of the Sussex, for example.
Mariner
You keep talking about the 12 nm limit, but a State's authority on issues such as shipwreck salvage extend through the contiguous zone, which is generally 24 nm. I don't think this makes any difference in the case of the Black Swan, but it might in the case of the Sussex, for example.
Mariner
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