Permission Issues

[FrequencyX]

Getting discouraged with permissions lately. Numerous individuals including our local manager of the county fairgrounds have denied me. The last response was from the manager of the county fairgrounds denying based on the fact that "too many people have asked recently, so we are not allowing it". When asking for permissions, I always state that I do not leave any traces and remove any trash that I come across.

Local playgrounds have been pounded too hard and local farmers never get back to me! Grrrr more of a venting session I suppose. Has anyone else had issues getting permissions lately?

 

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[Jeremy S]

The county fairgrounds here are actually private property, controlled by a fair board. The city/county has no control over them. I did ask and got permission to detect, but the place is pretty hunted out. I was once stopped by the groundskeeper, who is on the board, and asked to leave. When I mentioned that Mr.Whats-his-face in the office had given me permission, he said ok and let me be. He stated that the last guys he saw detecting were making a mess, and when he asked them to clean it up, they gave him an attitude, so the police were called.

As for city/county parks, if the rules don't state "no detecting" then I go for it and never ask. Unfortunately, most of the big old parks here have banned detecting State/DNA and federal land is almost always a no-go.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Bragg, you say:

"say that there was a law against it and I was ignorant to said law, but went about MD'ing and ran into an officer then the fact that I was ignorant of the law would not have been a suitable defense."

By all means, don't be ignorant of the potential that there might be a rule saying "no md'ing". I'm not advocating for anyone to not check (if they're skittish and wonder). That's not the issue at all here. No one here is advocating going and breaking a "no detecting" law, if one existed. I'm just wondering if you couldn't have availed yourself of that same info by looking it up yourself?

You did carefully word it I see, when you asked. You did not ask "can I metal detect?" (which risks putting you at the whims of an arbitrary "no", when/if no rule exists saying such a thing). Instead you asked: "are there any laws about metal detecting?" (so as to put the burden-of-proof on them to cite any law, if one existed, right?). The only fear I have about that improved way-of-wording, is they might STILL morph other things to apply. Like "harvesting and collecting" or "defacement", etc... (even though you never mentioned "dig" or mentioned you'd be taking "their" goodies, etc... it's just some people's natural image when they think of md'ing I guess). This has happened to folks even with the improved wording. And sadly, it can happen in places where detecting was never an issue for anyone up till then.

" I do not see the harm in simply contacting people to find out the laws that pertain to MD'ing in the area. "

If it was simply to find out if there were a "no detecting" law, I would agree. But as I say, I'd just be concerned that whomever you're asking can morph something else to apply. OR EVEN THIS : There's been cases where if there ISN'T a "law". And if the person you're asking catches the subtle clues that you intend to detect, unless they can cite a law. Well then guess what they do?? They bring it up at the next counsel meeting that "we need to have a law". YUP, this has actually happened. Laws invented to "address your pressing issue" ! I have the links to several such incidents, if you doubt that this can happen.

But you can satisfy your urge to talk to a live person, by instead asking them in this way: "where can I find the listing of all this entities rules, laws, and codes, available for public to view?". Then once they give you that link, or bring out the binder for you to look at, then you can merely answer your own question, by looking to and fro in said-listings for any mention made of "metal detectors" or "metal detecting". Afterall, that's the answer you were seeking from them in the first place, right?

 

[mark1427]

In some of the parks around here there is nothing about detecting, however there is a rule about "not disturbing the plants or wildlife." Where does the understanding of this fall?

 

[bragg765]

I see where you are coming from Tom. I just know how confusing legalese can be. I know when I first started looking through the state laws here I found myself turned around several times.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

In some of the parks around here there is nothing about detecting, however there is a rule about "not disturbing the plants or wildlife." Where does the understanding of this fall?

Mark, verbage about "defacement" "disturbing" "vandalizing" "altering" and so forth are in every single city and park code everywhere. All over the entire USA. I mean, seriously, did anyone expect they could "vandalize" and "alter" the park?

Here's your answer: Technically, all such verbage inherently implies the END result. Does it not? So if you leave no trace of your having been there (cover, stomp, ruffle up, leave no marks, etc...), then by logical definition, you have not defacED, disturbED, vandalizED, or alterED anything, now have you?

Sure someone might debate the semantics of that (d/t the temporary evil process of extraction). Avoid such busy-bodies, and pick lower-traffic times.

When I detect, I don't "disturb plants or wildlife".

 

[RobRieman]

In some of the parks around here there is nothing about detecting, however there is a rule about "not disturbing the plants or wildlife." Where does the understanding of this fall?

There are some odd people in this world that cut Christmas trees and fill there flower beds from public parks. They also spotlight deer at night and hunt in park woods. Laws have to be made to keep the disturbed people of this world in check. They were not intended to torture normal people. Do not read to far into the rules to try to make something out of them that does not exist. Detect the parks, act normal, leave it better than you found it and you will not have any problems. If an officer or park ranger tells you it is not allowed there, apologize nicely and move on to one of the other thousand parks or public areas. The only time I was ever confronted by the police or a ranger was to be asked if I was finding anything good. One ranger also had a detector at home and told me where to find two nice cellar holes in the woods on the property. They are normal people just like us if you treat them as you would like to be treated.

 

[PhilBarnett]

I sent an email to my city park director today asking if ther were any law pertaining to metal detecting and they sent me a copy that won't copy and past of all the city ordinances which of course hd all these rules about digging in the soil and removing ant thing for city parks which obviously covered everything from parking and riding by cycles to picking flowers. Lol. Nothing directly stating no metal detecting. But made it impossible to do without breaking city laws. I would put a copy of it here but it will not copy and paste. But in general if you child digs in the sand on the playgrounds you could be charged with a misdemeanor. Totally unreal. But if a cop wanted to give you problems they could. I checked on signs at the local parks and all of the had this ordinance cod number listed on the sign as rules. No rules just the ordinance number. So would they give you a problem. Probably according to who you were and if they were having a bad day or not. But yes you could be fined and charged f they wanted to.

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[PhilBarnett]

Additional note to my above comment. In the city ordinance there is not one word about metal detecting but plenty about using any type of tool or digging in the soil or removing any object for the grounds. Even to the point of removing rocks. So it is not breaking the law as long as you do not remove anything. The way it is written you could be fined for even removing trash as well as putting trash on the ground.

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[MinnesotaStateUniversity]

You found another person in Montana?!

Where you located?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

But yes you could be fined and charged f they wanted to.....

Phil, do you have any examples of anyone ever being "fined" or "charged" with detecting an innocuos city park, with such catch-all clauses like you cite? Those clauses about defacement, alterations, collecting and harvesting, etc... etc... at all parks, everywhere. Yet people *routinely* detect parks and ...... as long as you're not being a nuisance, and leaving holes (or sticking out like a sore thumb begging for attention), you're ok. Oh sure, this won't gaurantee you'll never get barked at. But no, not "fined" or "charged" for regular run-of-the-mill parks. If you have any examples, please let us know.

As for the "collecting" and "harvesting" and "taking" clauses: those pre-date detectors. Those are so that no one thinks he can back up his pickup truck to the park, and harvest all the tan bark and roses for use in his own garden. Or "taking" the swing sets home, etc... Could it be "morphed" to apply to singular coins or pulltabs? Sure! But most reasonable people realize that was NOT what those clauses were meant to do. Example: Could it be morphed to apply to your 7 yr. old daughter picking up a seashell on the beach for her grade school art project? SURE! But do you really think anyone cared if your daughter picked up a seashell? Of course not. But if you went to state capitol and asked "can I?", they would be obligated to tell you: No, you can not pick up seashells.

 

[FrequencyX]

You found another person in Montana?!

Where you located?

Great Falls

 

[PhilBarnett]

Nope don't have any examples as I don't know of any one around here that detects. That is why I am question these things. I don't want to put out a bunch of money on a machine and or equipment and have it taken away from me. I never see anyone around here with a detector out. I know that our local authorities some time like to show there authority. There is even a page every Wednesday I. Out local paper called sound off where people complain about our cops. Lol. I haven't hunted in many years and just getting back into to it and now I am to old to fight with the authority's. lol

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[PhilBarnett]

You found another person in Montana?!

Where you located?

I am in Athens Tennessee

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[Tom_in_CA]

Nope don't have any examples ........

And that's fine. That's usually the case. When the question of "permission" comes up (for public places with no rules saying "no detecting"), someone will invariably come up with the fear that "you can be arrested", jailed, fined, confiscated, ticketed, etc... But when you ask them for examples ....... the room grows strangely silent.

 

[PhilBarnett]

And that's fine. That's usually the case. When the question of "permission" comes up (for public places with no rules saying "no detecting"), someone will invariably come up with the fear that "you can be arrested", jailed, fined, confiscated, ticketed, etc... But when you ask them for examples ....... the room grows strangely silent.

That's a very good point. That's why I am asking my questions here. I figure if any one knows the answers to this topic it will be the people here. If any one is being bothered by officials I am sure it would be posted here quickly.

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