Pushing water 630ft with 300ft elevation rise?

[northern_sierras]

Just wondering, would any gasoline powered water pump small enough to pack a short distance be able to do this? If it cant do it all at once, i'll have to pump to a tank half way up the hill, and then pump from that tank to the main tank. I currently own this water pump http://www.amazon.com/DuroMax-XP652...-Portable/dp/B000MX9RQI/?tag=treasurenet01-20

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[kcm]

The pump info says max 117' total head. That's the amount of max suction + max lift. These pumps are not designed for those kinds of lifts - just for general use. For 300' rise, you'd need a high pressure pump. A good quality pump should be able to do it in 2 passes, but it sounds like this one would take 3.

You would probably be better off building a ram pump. That would lift water around the clock, just slowly. Best part is, no fuel!

Check out this .pdf:
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs142p2_041913.pdf

Someone posted it recently and I downloaded it. It's very informational. You can also find lots of videos on ram pumps.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Head pressure on that pump is only 91 ft. At 91 ft you would not be moving more than a dribble. The suction side is 26 ft. Same story with the dribble there. As a rough guide I'm guessing the pump could move water 40 foot uphill with about a 70 gal per minute flow with the stock 2 inch outflow.. Or ~70 ft uphill with 30 gal per minute flow with a 1 inch outflow.

For your situation you would need 7 tanks about 84 foot apart if the slope is even. Figure a few extra tanks for the steep spots. Pumping time alone for 1500 gallons of water would be about 8 hours into the 7 tanks plus the final delivery pump cycle. Figure 24 hours of labor and pumping time to get that 1500 gallons up your slope. 100 feet of 2 inch layflat hose is about 16 gallons to fill so you need to add that in X8=128 gallons.

The pump weighs 62 pounds. The gas to run it for 8 hours (3.3 gal) = 20 pounds. 100 foot of layflat hose and fittings = 30 pounds. Intake hose, fittings and foot valve = 25 pounds. Water tank 1500 gallons x2 = 550 pounds. So figure about 687 pounds.

For a working operation a better solution might be an electric submersible capable of 300 foot of lift @ 60 GPM. Figure 100 pounds with for the pump another 212 pounds for the 23 amp generator and electric fittings. About the same amount of fuel to move 1500 gallons of water = 20 pounds. Layflat hose w fittings = 175 pounds. Tank weight = 0. Total weight about 412 pounds. Cost about $6,000 - $7,000.

Less weight for the single stage lift setup and cut your time to move water to about 7% of the time to do it in multiple lifts with the 7 hp pump. Neither setup is in reality "portable". If you could do a semi permanent setup for a season the second option would give you about 15 times as much mining time as the pump you have now.

Heavy Pans

 

[kcm]

Water tank 1500 gallons x2 = 550 pounds. So figure about 687 pounds.

Huh?? Sorry Clay, ya' lost me on that one!

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Another choice, if you wanna stick with gas, would be to get a roller pump, then connect it to a 5hp gas engine via belt & pulleys. Surplus Center has a couple that go to 300 PSI. One pump head is $128 and another is $160. Output for each is 3/4" NPT.

Next option would be a 500 PSI pump with 1/2" NPT outlet for just under $300. Pumps 3gpm @ 500 PSI using 1hp.

Could use 3/4" garden hose with a 500 PSI working pressure for the first two and probably for the 3rd also, only in 1/2". However, I'd probably use pressure washer hose or low pressure hydraulic line for the 500 PSI pump.

What GPM's are you needing? How much water per day? There's more options out there - just need to know what final needs are.

 

[northern_sierras]

Water tank 1500 gallons x2 = 550 pounds. So figure about 687 pounds.

Huh?? Sorry Clay, ya' lost me on that one!

**************

Another choice, if you wanna stick with gas, would be to get a roller pump, then connect it to a 5hp gas engine via belt & pulleys. Surplus Center has a couple that go to 300 PSI. One pump head is $128 and another is $160. Output for each is 3/4" NPT.

Next option would be a 500 PSI pump with 1/2" NPT outlet for just under $300. Pumps 3gpm @ 500 PSI using 1hp.

Could use 3/4" garden hose with a 500 PSI working pressure for the first two and probably for the 3rd also, only in 1/2". However, I'd probably use pressure washer hose or low pressure hydraulic line for the 500 PSI pump.

What GPM's are you needing? How much water per day? There's more options out there - just need to know what final needs are.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm trying to fill a 1200gallon water tank which will last me a couple months. Time is not a big issue and if i can do it over the course of a week that would be fine. If i have to make multiple trips packing equipment down the hill thats fine too. I dont want to spend more than $1500 if i can get away with that. Never had to pump water over such a long distance so pretty clueless on the power of gas water pumps. Thanks for your help.

 

[kcm]

Keep in mind that the pump you ordered is made in China - engine and all. I bought the 3" model of the same pump. Had a 10' suction hose on it with water to within 7"-8" of the pump, the pump was primed, had a 20' lay-flat discharge and EVERYTHING was just about level (was trying to pump water across a driveway that had a frozen culvert). The pump wouldn't do a thing. Still haven't torn into it yet to see what's wrong. Will probably wait a couple more weeks for the skeeters to be out in full force.

Sounds like a ram pump might be your best bet. It would continue pumping regardless, and without fuel. Also, wouldn't cost very much. If I were doing it, that would definitely be the route I'd go.

 

[Hoser John]

What you seek is called a positive displacement pump-think car engine-waters sucked , in valve closes to capture,gets compressed and then another valve opens and it's blown out. Pump straight up ,just about anywhere. Rent as save a fortune since you perceive a years water BUT your not talking much water at all for any mining use-John

 

[releventchair]

Keep in mind that the pump you ordered is made in China - engine and all. I bought the 3" model of the same pump. Had a 10' suction hose on it with water to within 7"-8" of the pump, the pump was primed, had a 20' lay-flat discharge and EVERYTHING was just about level (was trying to pump water across a driveway that had a frozen culvert). The pump wouldn't do a thing. Still haven't torn into it yet to see what's wrong. Will probably wait a couple more weeks for the skeeters to be out in full force.

Sounds like a ram pump might be your best bet. It would continue pumping regardless, and without fuel. Also, wouldn't cost very much. If I were doing it, that would definitely be the route I'd go.

I looked up ram pumps last night thinking to suggest one.
500 feet was the max. recommended run..
I did not look into the logistics of running two in tandem or try to figure amount of loss of pressure through a given run.

 

[kcm]

...Then could have a ram pump get the water most of the way there, then the gas pump could finish when needed.

 

[releventchair]

...Then could have a ram pump get the water most of the way there, then the gas pump could finish when needed.

With the tank northern sierras wrote of, and the time being available too for a ram to fill it ,it is a very interesting consideration you have of relaying from the tank with a gas pump.....
Terrain options of use for runs and angles would need to be considered , as well as material lengths and draw/pressure ratio from tank.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Water tank 1500 gallons x2 = 550 pounds. So figure about 687 pounds.

Huh?? Sorry Clay, ya' lost me on that one!

Sorry kcm. I meant to write 1500 gallon water tank = 275 pounds X2 = 550 pounds. My 10 mph typing finger just couldn't keep up with my 12 mph brain.
To move water in more than one stage two water tanks are needed no matter what the flow rate.

If you only need to move 1200 gallons once and you don't care how long it takes you can reduce the output hose cross section as kcm pointed out. Your pump might hold up but being a trash pump I'm not sure it could develop the required 430+ PSI needed on the outlet side.

kcm's suggestion of a 500 PSI 3GPM sounds like a good option if you aren't in a hurry. I'm with Hoser though - 1200 gallons isn't much processing water for a day much less a season. You might want to recalculate your needs before you drag a 1200 gallon tank 630 foot up a 40[SUP]o[/SUP] slope.

Heavy Pans

 

[kcm]

Is this for a recirc system? If so, you'll have to take moisture evaporation into account, as well as the water that is held within the waste material. That'll add up pretty quick. No matter how much filtering you do, the water will have to be changed out and added to eventually.

***************

Clay -- 'Tis ok. I've got a 12mph mind, a 65 mph attitude, but a 1.3 mph body!

 

[northern_sierras]

Thanks for all the advice. Isn't the 500 PSI 3 GPM the same used in a pressure washer? How exactly would that work? Just run the line straight up the hill and leave the engine running most of the day? I have a powerful pressure washer, maybe that will work?

The goal is to start with 1200gallons to get us going...not sure how much water we'll go through so this is going to be the starting point to calculate our weekly water needs

 

[kcm]

Yes, a pressure washer pump would work. However, good-quality piston pumps are VERY expensive. Roller pumps are relatively inexpensive, easy to repair and use less hp to pump the water - albeit at a lower PSI.

Here are a few roller pumps for consideration:
6500-C HYPRO 6 ROLLER PUMP CAST IRON
7560-C HYPRO 8 ROLLER PUMP CAST IRON
Roller Pump, Roller Pump PTO, Ferroni Roller Pump | Agri Supply, 12242, MLI-25

Just about any high-pressure roller pump will work. Just keep in mind that the higher the PSI, the lower the GPM. Therefore, your suggestion of a pressure washer is NOT a bad one. They normally run from 1,500 PSI up to 5,000 PSI. ANY of those will pump water the height and distance you need. Try to get the best quality pump you can afford here. Also, as piston pumps run at such high pressures, they normally wear out more quickly than centrifugal pumps. However, you would know for certain how much water to expect. Even a 1,500 PSI pump will deliver close to its rated GPM at that distance. Would be good to have some way of turning the pump off as soon as your tank is full to prevent unnecessary wear to the pump. CAT brand pumps are very good.

There was a time when pressure washers were commonly 500 PSI, but that was long ago. You can still get 500 PSI pumps, but they are not commonly used in pressure washers any more.

Added: The main drawback to pressure washer pumps is that it is CRITICAL to have a good quality filter at the water input. These pumps cannot take any solids - not even cloudy water. Silt and/or rust in the water can easily score the pistons and cylinders. Using an oversized filter would be advisable.