Question for bow only and anyone else familiar with dalton and Tallahassee points

[bookummdano]

I think I recall you mentioning in a reply some time ago that you believe that Tallahassee points are older than some believe. I could be wrong in my memory. I often see dalton characteristics in some tallahassee's. Some times I think I have found a dalton to be told it's a tally. And some times I find a tally and am told it's a Santa Fe.? This can be expecially hard when the point has been tumbled and sand blasted so as to the whole artifact appears ground. I do know all the tally's I have found are comprised of a high quality material. Any ones input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tonykidd]

I think I recall you mentioning in a reply some time ago that you believe that Tallahassee points are older than some believe. I could be wrong in my memory. I often see dalton characteristics in some tallahassee's. Some times I think I have found a dalton to be told it's a tally. And some times I find a tally and am told it's a Santa Fe.? This can be expecially hard when the point has been tumbled and sand blasted so as to the whole artifact appears ground. I do know all the tally's I have found are comprised of a high quality material. Any ones input would be greatly appreciated.

This is a pretty good guide by Kevin Dowdy. Maybe it will help, or help confuse the issue even more.

Artifacts Guide Store

 

[bookummdano]

Yes, thanks tony that is a very good guide. I have read the ode to the Tallahassee a few times. I have learned most all of my typology knowledge from his material and site, my applicable finds and fellow old time collectors. I am always interested in hearing other collectors thoughts and theories on anything local and Native American related. Bow only seems knowledgable on local typology and had mentioned something about the Tallahassee. I also enjoyed hearing about your excavation experiences and learned a lot in the one conversation we had.

 

[tonykidd]

I had an archaeologist tell me a few months ago that his theory is that an Indian hunted with a certain style of point until he saw that Running Bear was getting all the girls, because he brought home more game. Indian #1 would then modify his points or copy Running Bear's points so that he could be successful. Success meant life, so wholesale changes were not easily accepted. That's why the offshoots of different points carried on for thousands of years. That is paraphrased, but his general words.
Some points worked better than others in different situations with different types of game, atlatl species, etc. So a Dalton point, which supposedly dates back to around 11,000 -8500 years BP, may in fact have even been used historically rather than prehistorically if certain individuals or clans were successful. It's easy for anthros and arch's to lump things together to fit their narrative, but when you find a mixed bag of points from supposed different eras it makes you pause. We recently found a cache of points ranging from Kirk Stemmed and Kirk serrated to Adenas, Etleys and all points in between. There were approximately 20 or so within a few feet of each other, and the generally accepted ages of them were from 9500 to 1300 BP. Were they handed down? Maybe. Or maybe they were what worked the best.
Questions like yours are what keep me and others interested in this stuff!

 

[joshuaream]

Tallahassee points have been professionally excavated from Woodland contexts, and are a Woodland era artifact. As the type was defined, they are a Woodland artifact a couple thousand years old. Dalton points are an early archaic (and maybe transitional depending on who you ask and how you define paleo & archaic.) The issue, as you have accurately described, is that out of context it can be nearly impossible to tell them apart from Daltons. Daltons are generally beefier and have more grinding, but some Tallahassee points can be stocky and when tumbled or sand blasted, grinding can be hard to identify.

The issue that they are difficult to distinguish, doesn't mean they are directly related or the same type. The same would go for Dickson points from Illinois and Newnan points from Florida, or stemmed neolithic points from Africa and Perdiz points from Texas. Similar technology, and probably similar use (hafting, etc.) but not directly related. Actually geographical distances are much easier to explain than thousands of years of distance (anyone in good shape can follow a river down stream to the ocean given enough time, no evidence that people can go back to last week let alone 9000 years back.)

All Tallahassee type points are Woodland. Some Tallahassee-looking points are potentially as old as Dalton. Some Tallahassee-looking points are proto-historic (almost modern.)

(Qualification- I live in Florida and own some of both types.)

 

[bookummdano]

Thank you Joshua, as I stated the majority of my finds are out of context and in "catches" of multi occupational tools and points. I have found a cowhouse slough, Kirk corners, bolens, Hernandos, Taylor's, and tallahassee's etc...... in the same catch all comprised of primarily the same material. So this is a blessing in finding points. But a curse from an educational standpoint or in such a case a period of occupation could help you form a tie breaker so to speak. Still, in my opinion it is hard to beat a water polished or creek candy point....... Would you mind posting the points you have mentioned from the various time periods. I am pretty certain I have never found a dalton. Some of the others on the forum would be interested in the similarities.