✅ SOLVED Railroad button? & old hardware from what?

[Charmin]

Found these things today near an old foundation here in Oklahoma......the foundation is near the old Midland Valley Railroad tracks.
Could the button be a uniform button from a railroad worker---it has three 5-pointed stars on it? and the old iron hardware from a stove maybe?
Here's some pictures:
First is the foundation---it is built back into the hill:
And here's the finds:

Thanks for any help!!

 

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[charlives]

That large iron thing with the loops on both ends is a bit for a horse. ..or at least that was what I was told when I found one. Nice job.

 

[Charmin]

That large iron thing with the loops on both ends is a bit for a horse. ..or at least that was what I was told when I found one. Nice job.

Right! I think those are called "snaffle" or "broken" bits. We usually just find the rings from those things.
Thanks charlives!

 

[skeeterd]

Yep. Snaffle bit. I have pile of them. The iron thing with the stars intrests me, but I have no idea what it might be.

 

[archer63]

the bullet is civil war era for sure. and for sure a broke bit. the thing with the stars looks like it was screwed on to something to me, no clue sorry.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Sorry to have to say, the very-wide flat nose on the bullet means it is from sometime after the civil war (which ended in 1865. Also, after doing two clicks to view the supersize version of the first photo showing the bullet, it appears to have a "reeded" body-groove encircling it. (You might want to use water and a toothbrush to gently scrub the dirt out of the grooves, to see whether they are or aren't reeded grooves.) The presence of a reeded body-groove on a bullet means it is from around 1880 at the very earliest -- and that type has been continuously manufactured ever since, right up to today. See photo below for an example of a reeded groove on a bullet.

If you can measure your bullet's diameter with Digital Calipers, tell us the measurement in hundredths-of-an-inch, and we might be able to give you its very-specific identification.

Your button is known as a Trainman's button, from the overalls/coveralls worn by the train's work-crew (but not the conductors or stewards). That version seems to start showing up in the 1880s.

Other posters have already correctly identified the snaffle horsebit for you. That version does date back to the civil war (actually, even earlier) ...but it too has been manufactured continuously ever since then. You can still buy the exacy same model today at horsegear stores.

Speaking of which ...your broken iron buckle is from a horse-harness.

Keep hunting that spot. There are always a few old coins around old foundations like that one.

 

[BosnMate]

From what I can tell in the picture, the bullet appears to be a 45-70 that was intended to be loaded in a tubular magazine. In other words, the bullets were stored in the rifle in a long tube, one behind the other, and they figured if pointed bullets rested on the primer of the one ahead, the recoil or other sharp jar to the gun could cause the bullets in the magazine to go off, which would be unhealthy to the shooter. The first use of 45-70 was early 1870's by the army, using single shot rifles. At one time I owned a Winchester 1886 45-70 with a tubular magazine, and shot a bullet just like yours. A knock off of the same gun is still manufactured today, as are 45-70 cartridges in exactly the same configuration as your bullet. My guess is based on your ruler, and if the bullet diameter is in fact smaller that .45 of an inch, then it could be a 38-55, same deal as previously stated.The magazine I'm talking about is the tube seen under the barrel in the photo.

 

[Charmin]

Thanks Archer63, CannonballGuy, and BosnMate.....that helps a bunch! We figured this old foundation to date around the late 1800's to early 1900's. The Osages(Indians) were allotted their land during that era.....most of the old home sites we find are Osage.

Appreciate the information on the Trainman's button, CannonBallGuy!

And BosnMate---we found quite a few bullet casings.....a "WRA Co. 38 WCF", a "U.S. 44 WCF", a "UMC 25-20" and some shotgun casings---I just figured the bullet came out of one of those. But thanks for the information! You guys are great!

I'm still curious what that iron piece with the 6 pointed stars came off of? It looks like a Star of David.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Actually, non-jacketed lead .45-70 bullets had 3 grooves ...and even the shortest version of them (for the .45-70 Carbine) are significantly longer than the bullet found by Charmin. (See the .45-70 bullets in the photo below.)

Please do clean the dirt out of the bullet's grooves, and let us know whether or not is has the many short parallel ridges inside the groove, meaning it is a "reeded" groove.

Is the flat nose of the bullet "solid," or have a round hole in it?

Also, if you don't have access to Digital Calipers, put the marked edge of a ruler on the bullet's flat base. If it measures really-really close to 7/16th-inch, it is a .44 caliber bullet. If it is really-really close to 3/8th-inch, it is a .38 bullet (or a bit less likely, a .36 bullet).

 

[vhs07]

The item with the two stars with holes thru them,...Is it cast iron or stamped steel? It look quite thin from the photo.
Also, the similar item with the hole minus the stars,...is it the same front and back? It looks thicker.

 

[Charmin]

The item with the two stars with holes thru them,...Is it cast iron or stamped steel? It look quite thin from the photo.
Also, the similar item with the hole minus the stars,...is it the same front and back? It looks thicker.

I think what you are seeing is the front and back of the same item...Sorry I forgot to put that with the pictures! And it is cast iron and kinda thin with a raised lip on the back,,,,,almost like it was an edge piece on something. Thanks vhs07~~

CannonBallGuy---I don't have any calipers for an accurate measurement but I did clean the lead up a little more and took pictures from all angles---here's a picture collage:

Thanks for the help guys!!

 

[cudamark]

I'm guessing it's a hinge cover of some sort, made to keep the hinge pin from sliding out.

 

[skeeterd]

Your bullet looks to measure at 3/8 inch which is equal to .375 inch. The . 38-40 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) matches this exactly. It was origanally chambered in the Winchester model 73 that does have a tubeular magazine and required a flat nosed bullet. Colt also cambered it in their Single Action Army revolvers and at the turn of the century, flat nose bullets became popular in revolvers. This bullet could have come from either gun or several other types of guns chambered for this round. I hope this helps you out a little.

 

[uglymailman]

could you show pic of back of RR button? Could it be a clip or snap or whatever ya call them off a pair of bibbers?

 

[Charmin]

Your bullet looks to measure at 3/8 inch which is equal to .375 inch. The . 38-40 WCF (Winchester Center Fire) matches this exactly. It was origanally chambered in the Winchester model 73 that does have a tubeular magazine and required a flat nosed bullet. Colt also cambered it in their Single Action Army revolvers and at the turn of the century, flat nose bullets became popular in revolvers. This bullet could have come from either gun or several other types of guns chambered for this round. I hope this helps you out a little.

Thank you, skeeterd! That does help!!

And here's a picture of the back of the button for you uglymailman:

 

[BosnMate]

Cannonballguy, Did the 45-70 flat nose 300 Grain WRA bullet also have three grooves? Also there is the option of the 45 Colt long, did it have more than one groove? I don't know either of those questions for antique bullets, but the 1897 Sears catalog lists a flat nose 300 gr. black powder load and a jacketed, or as they said, copper patched smokeless cartridge. I know it's foolish to guess at a bullet size in a photo, because it's impossible in to eyeball the difference between .40, .44, and .45. I shoot black powder cartridge guns now and also in the past, but the only cast lead bullets I'm familiar with were cast by me or purchased modern bullets. I do know that there was multi ball load in the 45-70 that had two round balls underneath a bullet that only had one groove. Collectors call this one a "sentry load."

 

[archer63]

man i learn stuff here every day. this is a great site with lots of great folks

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Cannonballguy, Did the 45-70 flat nose 300 Grain WRA bullet also have three grooves? Also there is the option of the 45 Colt long, did it have more than one groove? I don't know either of those questions for antique bullets, but the 1897 Sears catalog lists a flat nose 300 gr. black powder load and a jacketed, or as they said, copper patched smokeless cartridge. I know it's foolish to guess at a bullet size in a photo, because it's impossible in to eyeball the difference between .40, .44, and .45. I shoot black powder cartridge guns now and also in the past, but the only cast lead bullets I'm familiar with were cast by me or purchased modern bullets. I do know that there was multi ball load in the 45-70 that had two round balls underneath a bullet that only had one groove. Collectors call this one a "sentry load."

Regarding the "45-70 flat nose 300 Grain WRA bullet" you're asking about:
In all my years of research, I've never come across an "antique" .45-70 bullet which is lead-only (not copper-jacketed) and has a "true" flat nose (like the bullet found by Charmin). All of the 1870s-1890s lead-only .45-70 bullets I've seen have either a rounded or semi-rounded nose. I've never seen the lead-only bullet you mention as being in the 1897 Sears catalog. So, I cannot answer your question from "direct observation." I do know that the 1870s-1880s lead-only .45-70-500 and .45-70-405 had three grooves. Theoretically, it's possible that a .45-70-300, being a lighter, shorter bullet than the 500 and 405, might have had only two grooves. But I think it's more likely that it had three grooves, with just a shorter nose.

Yo asked if the .45 Colt Long cartridge's bullet had more than one groove. I assume you mean the cartridge for the US Army's Model-1874 Colt Revolver. If so, my answer is yes, it did. It had two grooves. See the photo at the end of this post, showing an excavated, white-patina specimen.

I asked Charmin to put the marked edge of a ruler up against the flat bottom of his bullet, and tell us (or show us in a photo) whether its diameter is closer to 3/8th-inch or 7/16th-inch. He still hasn't done that. I suspect that his flatnosed bullet with two reeded grooves is a .44 caliber, not a .38 caliber. Specifically, I think it is an 1880s-or-later .44-40 bullet, for the Model-1873 Winchester .44-40 Rifle. I've seen a photo of a flatnosed lead-only .44-40 which looks like an exact match for Charmin's except that this one is a hollow-point. See the other photo below.

 

[Tnmountains]

Looks like they got you squared away pretty good. They are good. How is the deer herd this year. Got a call from Watonga they said mighty warm this year.

 

[BosnMate]

Regarding the "45-70 flat nose 300 Grain WRA bullet" you're asking about:
In all my years of research, I've never come across an "antique" .45-70 bullet which is lead-only (not copper-jacketed) and has a "true" flat nose (like the bullet found by Charmin). All of the 1870s-1890s lead-only .45-70 bullets I've seen have either a rounded or semi-rounded nose. I've never seen the lead-only bullet you mention as being in the 1897 Sears catalog. So, I cannot answer your question from "direct observation." I do know that the 1870s-1880s lead-only .45-70-500 and .45-70-405 had three grooves. Theoretically, it's possible that a .45-70-300, being a lighter, shorter bullet than the 500 and 405, might have had only two grooves. But I think it's more likely that it had three grooves, with just a shorter nose.

Yo asked if the .45 Colt Long cartridge's bullet had more than one groove. I assume you mean the cartridge for the US Army's Model-1874 Colt Revolver. If so, my answer is yes, it did. It had two grooves. See the photo at the end of this post, showing an excavated, white-patina specimen.

I asked Charmin to put the marked edge of a ruler up against the flat bottom of his bullet, and tell us (or show us in a photo) whether its diameter is closer to 3/8th-inch or 7/16th-inch. He still hasn't done that. I suspect that his flatnosed bullet with two reeded grooves is a .44 caliber, not a .38 caliber. Specifically, I think it is an 1880s-or-later .44-40 bullet, for the Model-1873 Winchester .44-40 Rifle. I've seen a photo of a flatnosed lead-only .44-40 which looks like an exact match for Charmin's except that this one is a hollow-point. See the other photo below.

You are right. I went back to the catalog and looked using a magnifying glass, and the flat nose black powder is a 45-90 with 90 grains of powder and a 300 grain flat nose bullet. The 45-70 WRA advertised for the 86 Winchester is jacketed and smokeless, the other 45-70 black powder load, which is advertised as being for the 86 Winchester called the "45-70 Government," with 70 grains of BP and a round nose 405 grain bullet. By golly, I learned something today.