Researchers open underwater 'living museum' in the Dominican Republic

[MiddenMonster]

On the surface, this sound good. But I've included a few quotes that are problematic. Link and quotes below:

Researchers open underwater 'living museum' in the Dominican Republic
"Newswise – BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- In partnership with the government of the Dominican Republic, researchers at the Indiana University Center for Underwater Science have opened their fifth "Living Museum in the Sea" in the Caribbean country -- a continuation of the center's holistic approach to protecting and preserving historic shipwrecks as well as their coastal environments."

So far so good. But then:

"The Living Museums in the Sea model provides a sustainable alternative to treasure hunting," Beeker said.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does seem to presume that treasure hunting is inherently a bad thing.

"Treasure hunters can only sell it once, but with the living museum model, we can sell history forever."

Again, is selling treasure "only once" really a bad thing? With all the millionaires and billionaires in the world, it's not unreasonable to believe that they can buy them and stock as many museums as they want.

"Tori Galloway, a research associate at the Center for Underwater Science, said the underwater museums are a creative solution to a problem unique to the Dominican Republic, where treasure hunting from shipwrecks is still legal as long as half of what is salvaged is returned to government. This creates a situation in which the government is often stuck with a large number of artifacts that can't survive above water but doesn't have the resources to devote to proper above-water conservation, she said."

True. This could be a problem for poor, impoverished countries that are clueless about capitalism. But again, with all the millionaires and billionaires in the world...

And where is the carved-in-stone rule that everything has to be curated by the country in which it was found. If the Elgin Marbles hadn't been taken to England they wouldn't exist now.

 

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[Bum Luck]

On the surface, this sound good. But I've included a few quotes that are problematic. Link and quotes below:

Researchers open underwater 'living museum' in the Dominican Republic
"Newswise — BLOOMINGTON, Ind. -- In partnership with the government of the Dominican Republic, researchers at the Indiana University Center for Underwater Science have opened their fifth "Living Museum in the Sea" in the Caribbean country -- a continuation of the center's holistic approach to protecting and preserving historic shipwrecks as well as their coastal environments."

So far so good. But then:

"The Living Museums in the Sea model provides a sustainable alternative to treasure hunting," Beeker said.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does seem to presume that treasure hunting is inherently a bad thing.

"Treasure hunters can only sell it once, but with the living museum model, we can sell history forever."

Again, is selling treasure "only once" really a bad thing? With all the millionaires and billionaires in the world, it's not unreasonable to believe that they can buy them and stock as many museums as they want.

"Tori Galloway, a research associate at the Center for Underwater Science, said the underwater museums are a creative solution to a problem unique to the Dominican Republic, where treasure hunting from shipwrecks is still legal as long as half of what is salvaged is returned to government. This creates a situation in which the government is often stuck with a large number of artifacts that can't survive above water but doesn't have the resources to devote to proper above-water conservation, she said."

True. This could be a problem for poor, impoverished countries that are clueless about capitalism. But again, with all the millionaires and billionaires in the world...

And where is the carved-in-stone rule that everything has to be curated by the country in which it was found. If the Elgin Marbles hadn't been taken to England they wouldn't exist now.

Treasure hunting is NOT an inherently bad thing. In fact, it can be argued that if the world's governments would be more practical about the issue, there seems to me to be ways to "have your cake and eat it too". England has a working system with found treasure. Along those lines, we could encourage private exploration by ensuring a cooperative and positive relationship built on trust instead of attack, vilification, and financial punishment. The "system" as it exists now seems to me to be "run" for the benefit of the archaeologists' scorn for treasure hunters - hardly the best of premises. And, the stuff gets put in hidden boxes somewhere if it doesn't get lost or stolen. Even the for less valuable artifacts, they admit that eternal storage is a burden even for governments.

As for the argument that "Treasure hunters can only sell it once", the fact is that no one lives forever. The worst case scenario is that someone keeps what they can buy private for their own lifetime. Not all do, as you point out. I have a few 1622 reals, but they are hardly unique and no one can make a case that they are better off in an archaeologist's box with ten thousand more, a very tempting target that once stolen insures that they will NEVER see the light of day, perhaps forever. Maybe in some palace basement in Saudi Arabia.

Government vs private: In general, governments have more resources and last longer than private companies. That's not always the case as I'm sure you all know. The point is that each can bring their situations and resources to the table for the benefit of - say it with me - ALL of us, from kids to us big kids. Not many governments can fund research and exploration, and we all know where the archies are sitting on that, but private firms can and will IF they are sure there is an outcome that will compensate them for their risk and work in the case of success. Once that happens, Governments can step in and offer not only trust, but support since the recovered artifacts (not always treasure) need conservation and long term care, including forever display and educational resource. This is so obvious, but no one seems to be interested for what is the best outcome, only their outcome.
The current 25% split in Florida is a workable solution, but as it's a blind mandate, serves its own process regardless. Less prosperous governments need the help from the private sector and even other governments to guard against corruption and help shoulder the burdens they can't. Sounds like a pracitical use for UNESCO, huh?

If the Elgin Marbles hadn't been taken to England they wouldn't exist now.

I agree. Most of their other treasures too. They are amazing. But in spite of grumpy Greeks in ‘Give Them Back’ T-shirts, and the risk of being banned for political comment, there is a case a stable civilization, something the Brits have been good at for centuries. The Greeks gave us Democracy, the Egyptians awesome mummies, the Assyrians the Lion Reliefs, but it's a tough argument that these countries would have enabled these treasures to survive those centuries. And they really belong to us all.

This is just a case for substituting simple problem-solving for the narrow-minded politics that have plagued this issue with failure for so long.

 

[Jason in Enid]

So they have adopted the route of "let it rot in the sea". Yep, a 3rd world nation, without the skills or labor pool for proper conservation. And how are they going to stop the local populace from looting the sites. When you live in rampant poverty, the blackmarket value of a single artifact will be too tempting for many.

 

[Salvor6]

Jason, that's what I found out. The poverty of the local populace drives them to scour the wreck sites for treasures. They wind up selling the silver and gold artifacts for scrap value. They don't understand the historical value and wind up selling the artifacts for bullion value. That is more money than they will earn in a lifetime.

 

[Bum Luck]

Jamaica is a sorry example of that. I love the country, but the net result is local looting, black market, and smuggling out of the country. Let's not forget bribery of officials either. That is conveniently ignored by archaeologists, I think part because they're easy targets and some jealousy.

The British model co-opts that by offering them more money than they could get from scrap - as well as credit for the finds.

 

[grossmusic]

Indiana?

This has been Captain Billy's dream. Hope it's not another move that pushes his years of efforts aside.

 

[Black Duck]

There always has been and now more than ever artifacts are being stolen from the sea due to no contracts being given now or in the near future.So Beekers statement is just wrong on every level ( although there is a right way to do U/W parks but not his way) and there is no Proof that what they are calling capt kids shipwreck in Bayahiba is even that ship ( I know the fisherman who found it) what a joke this guy is) yea Beeker I am calling you out, you are a lier and a terrible diver and stay out the U/W caves you are not Cave Instructor qualified and your going to kill your students. Taken credit for other peoples work is so wrong but all the aches do it.
Just my SA opinion

 

[Alexandre]

The difference being that money goes into the locals pocket, instead of going to some gringo ones. So, again, organized treasure hunting is the worst alternative.

Jason, that's what I found out. The poverty of the local populace drives them to scour the wreck sites for treasures. They wind up selling the silver and gold artifacts for scrap value. They don't understand the historical value and wind up selling the artifacts for bullion value. That is more money than they will earn in a lifetime.

 

[Black Duck]

The difference being that money goes into the locals pocket, instead of going to some gringo ones. So, again, organized treasure hunting is the worst alternative.

Well that is just not a correct statement in whole, so let me educate you, when ARS/GME and other companys was in the DR as many as and up to 18 Dominicans got paid every 2 weeks for 2 years 4 times what they would have gotten other wise,From ARS/GME 50% went to government before they screwed us in a LEGAL COnTRACT due to misiformed government officials and archaeologist that dive 2 weeks out of the year and setting around the rest of the year and talk about what they did not get done.

You I am sure haven't been to the scrap yards in the DR so you have no idea whats going on with that issue, and nothing is getting recorded now, as far as I know Tracy, Burt, Rick and even Deep blue did good recording work and spent there own money and time getting the job done correctly.

Just because you do not like treasure hunters doesn't mean you should not recognize the good that was done by the people that you are complaining about, you seam to be a typical cow following the herd around in cirlces all you u guys are the same no game just talk. No real work done or contribution to the public what so ever.

I just do not care for you much and I do not even know you

 

[Alexandre]

Do you even know Spanish?

I just do not care for you much and I do not even know you

 

[Bum Luck]

The difference being that money goes into the locals pocket, instead of going to some gringo ones. So, again, organized treasure hunting is the worst alternative.

I heartily disagree.

No one is going to leave treasure (gold, silver, astrolabes, etc.) on the ocean floor. It simply disappears, and tragically, some gets melted down to avoid the authorities and arrest. To pretend otherwise is just plain foolish. See my above post about Jamaica.

You can leave some stuff lying around on the ocean floor, as in the La Caleta Underwater National Park. We don't dive such sites to look for treasure, but to look at sunken ships.

People still dive the 1733 wrecks in the Keys and will continue to do so, but the treasure has gone long ago, to organized (and disorganized) treasure hunting.

 

[ARC]

Museums are businesses... Designed to make money.

"a place for everyone to see and learn about the history"

Everyone... yep... everyone WHO has enough money for the admission.

heh

 

[WaveJunky757]

AARC Exactly

 

[captbilly]

well OK this thread got my attention. Funny how the DR just opened a new museum in the capitol. And not one artifact displayed is not from a treasure hunting company. When they had contractors they got free archaeology. free excavation of shipwrecks (that by the way is very expensive.) they got first pick of all artifacts. Site plans. And fifty percent of all artifacts. And shipwrecks were discovered that otherwise would have not even been known about. However most are known by local fishermen who make extra cash by looting them. So now they get nothing and i have a hard drive full of photos of stolen artifacts that fishermen would bring by my house in hopes i could identify or give them a price or even hoping i would buy them.
Having contractors helps in securing and policing these historic areas in a country where law enforcement on the ocean is non-existent. The last two cat five storms that passed north of the DR made me want to have a look at the wrecks that we spent several years excavating. I knew these wrecks like the back of my hand, The sand had been washed away. The place was unrecognizable. Scoured clean like someone had just swept the place with a broom. Nothing was left. To me a prime example that these wrecks are vulnerable to ocean phenomena. And thank God we did do a complete archaeological excavation and rescued this historic underwater site before it ended all up on the beach for the beach-goers to put in their pockets. So instead of having nothing, with contractors this government gets a very professional archaeological site plan. Half of the artifacts. (Hahaha! no the contract said they would split the artifacts in half but nope they reneged on that contract and kept all of it. And are now displaying these items in a museum that does not even recognized the folks who found it. Or the companies that excavated it). And if they ever wise-up down here and let contractors back in who would ever trust this government after that last ordeal?
And when you see statements from overpaid over zealous people like Charlie Beeker and his minions about how bad treasure hunters are/were you have to assume it was he who played a role in this museum not to acknowledge the treasure hunters who brought these incredible items to the world to see. I watched through the years how he rolls. They are here playing treasure-hunter nothing more nothing less and on the dime of Indiana university they have no real equipment to do the job they hand out gifts to the cultureal folks and get them visas to visit the states and sit back bad-mouthing treasure hunters like somehow they can do them selves what five professional contractors were able to do. But with his gifts he has the ear of the people in charge here and the looting will continue and the degradation of these site by mother nature and time will continue. Its a shame to allow people like him with all the time and funds on his side to dictate to this government what he believes is how things should be run down here, as very professional hard working folks with years of experience in this industry sit side-lined because of a few gifts he passes out to insure his personal existent here. Lets hope the next president has a better vision for the heritage of this island nation and have these historical sites secured and all important items rescued before its too late.

 

[MiddenMonster]

And when you see statements from overpaid over zealous people like Charlie Beeker and his minions about how bad treasure hunters are/were you have to assume it was he who played a role in this museum not to acknowledge the treasure hunters who brought these incredible items to the world to see. I watched through the years how he rolls. They are here playing treasure-hunter nothing more nothing less and on the dime of Indiana university they have no real equipment to do the job they hand out gifts to the cultureal folks and get them visas to visit the states and sit back bad-mouthing treasure hunters like somehow they can do them selves what five professional contractors were able to do.

It probably also helps that he used the magic "S" word in describing the museum: "Sustainable". These days that word is worth all kinds of capital in grant money, and possibly even U.S. taxpayer funded foreign aid to the Dominican Republic when it is sprinkled liberally throughout publications, forms and other documents.

 

[grossmusic]

well OK this thread got my attention.

I thought it might!

 

[grossmusic]

Time to get ahead of the power players. https://www.facebook.com/bill.black.336/posts/3410966082278352