River Bank hunt interrupted by misinformed landowner

[Nitric]

When you look at the summary of Pennsylvania in this link, it does appear to state that the area between the high and low water line is owned by the Commonwealth, the landowner above can only own to the high water line. Thanks for the info..

Also, watch taking links as "true" sometimes things have changed, or whatever. But it's info and a starting point. According to that, and if I understood it or part of it, Yes, you are correct. Where the issue is going to be if..your allowed to detect or remove things from that area.

Ohio is different, you couldn't detect state land. Some beaches made an exception. I was stopped when I was detecting around a picnic table by a park Ranger. He said as long as I was in the "Beach sand" that they allowed it. He agreed that it was silly and that I wasn't hurting anything around the picnic tables, but he had to enforce the law, it was his job. He could have been a lot worse about it and wrote a ticket.

But.....In PA I was given permission by a Park ranger to detect a state Park while they were on duty. haha I know it was wrong but... what can i say?

It's really hard to say what they are going to tell you! That may depend on the persons mood for the day too!

In AL, I'm still sticking with...I own the soil under the water. My Deed states that. People are allowed to use the water, but if I didn't want them digging in the soil for whatever stupid reason, I could. doubt I ever would. Just cool to know!

 

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[NEPA History]

Also, watch taking links as "true" sometimes things have changed, or whatever. But it's info and a starting point. According to that, and if I understood it or part of it, Yes, you are correct. Where the issue is going to be if..your allowed to detect or remove things from that area.

Ohio is different, you couldn't detect state land. Some beaches made an exception. I was stopped when I was detecting around a picnic table by a park Ranger. He said as long as I was in the "Beach sand" that they allowed it. He agreed that it was silly and that I wasn't hurting anything around the picnic tables, but he had to enforce the law, it was his job. He could have been a lot worse about it and wrote a ticket.

But.....In PA I was given permission by a Park ranger to detect a state Park while they were on duty. haha I know it was wrong but... what can i say?

It's really hard to say what they are going to tell you! That may depend on the persons mood for the day too!

In AL, I'm still sticking with...I own the soil under the water. My Deed states that. People are allowed to use the water, but if I didn't want them digging in the soil for whatever stupid reason, I could. doubt I ever would. Just cool to know!

I know not to take everything you see on the links as truth. But as you said, it's a starting point. That's why I contacted the PA Fish Commission. They actually did call me back yesterday, but when the phone # came up as "Restricted" on my cell, I didn't answer. But the officer left a message and said he would call me back. Also, here in PA, you can hunt in a state park, with permission. It varies from park to park though. One place I go camping at, you go to the park office and fill out a form specifically for metal detecting. If anyone stops you, as long as that form is on file, you're good. Other parks don't allow it at all. The only stipulation at the place I go is that you can't detect the lake beaches during the day, and anything found of "historical significance" has to be turned in. They have a little museum at the park, and I have given them almost everything I've found, besides the pocket change. Gave them a few oxen shoes, some early spoons, shotgun brass etc, and they loved it..lol. There was an 1850's farm site on part of the park, so every time I go there I spend a few hours looking for stuff for them.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I know not to take everything you see on the links as truth. But as you said, it's a starting point. That's why I contacted the PA Fish Commission. They actually did call me back yesterday, but when the phone # came up as "Restricted" on my cell, I didn't answer. But the officer left a message and said he would call me back. Also, here in PA, you can hunt in a state park, with permission. It varies from park to park though. One place I go camping at, you go to the park office and fill out a form specifically for metal detecting. If anyone stops you, as long as that form is on file, you're good. Other parks don't allow it at all. The only stipulation at the place I go is that you can't detect the lake beaches during the day, and anything found of "historical significance" has to be turned in. They have a little museum at the park, and I have given them almost everything I've found, besides the pocket change. Gave them a few oxen shoes, some early spoons, shotgun brass etc, and they loved it..lol. There was an 1850's farm site on part of the park, so every time I go there I spend a few hours looking for stuff for them.

If may also boil down to if the state actually owns THE LAND IN FEE ( between the ordinary low water and the ordinary high water), or in actuality holds a superior RIGHT IN TRUST to protect specific public uses. **That is an important distinction when it comes to removing things from the earth.**

They likely will actually not know one way or another. They will only know what their regulations state, what their signs say, what the guy training told them, what their permit applications show. There IS often a difference between that and what’s correct. Their legal council, if called upon would provide actual legal opinions. However you may just get enough documentation to cover your activities that very few people even give a shout about.

 

[darktower007]

It was mentioned above but in Tennessee in a non navigable water way (creek) if a stream cuts through an owners land, they own everything under the water. The water is “common use” and you cannot trasspass in the water. However, once you step on land, either in the creek or on the bank.... your trespassing. (Unless you have permission).

There are ways around this though. If you find city/county land a creek runs through, your good to go because it government property. This only applies if your in an unrestricted, non native American sensitive creek, and you know all local laws.

I admit.. it sucks. In Tennessee we have a couple jackwagons that we’re caught digging Arrow heads on the bank and now the river is forever closed to hunting.

 

[NEPA History]

Still waiting for the Fish Commission to get back to me. Thought I would have heard something by now, but if I don't soon, I'll call them back later this week. Just wanted to keep the thread updated. As soon as hear a definitive answer from them, I'll update this. So far, all my research seems to be pointing towards my assertion that this guy does NOT own the river bank below the high water line, and I have every right to be in the channel. I'll let you know how it turns out just as soon as I get an answer. Thanks everyone for your feedback and input on this..

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Still waiting for the Fish Commission to get back to me. Thought I would have heard something by now, but if I don't soon, I'll call them back later this week. Just wanted to keep the thread updated. As soon as hear a definitive answer from them, I'll update this. So far, all my research seems to be pointing towards my assertion that this guy does NOT own the river bank below the high water line, and I have every right to be in the channel. I'll let you know how it turns out just as soon as I get an answer. Thanks everyone for your feedback and input on this..

Just remember the land by default comes with many connected rights that can be retained/sold and owned by others in absolute. As Nitric stated, think of the water and the land as two seperate things. Same goes for access rights and land ownership.
These rights can be taxed and are treated just like any other real property. They will not show up on a tax assessors map.

It is possible for others (including the state) to hold superior rights that severely restrict the use of the surface which others own. For example the surface owner can have the right to erect a dock to access the navigable stream, but not tell people they cannot trespass. That same owner could restrict removal of property from the ground having nothing to do with commerce, transportation, recreation, environmental protection, ect.
Point being, just because the guy can’t trespass you, doesn’t necessarily mean he doesn’t own what your digging up.