River Bank hunt interrupted by misinformed landowner

[NEPA History]

I agree with you 100%. My whole point is that he DOESN'T own the river channel that I was hunting in. He can't tell me what I can and can't do on PUBLIC property. He can only own to the high water line, which I was well below. Thanks for commenting!

 

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[Nitric]

The point is, it isn't his property. I'm not removing bucket of fill gravel, I'm removing relics and trash. But it's not his property to tell me what I can't and can do there.. thanks for the response!

That's where the argument is....Not that your hurting anything. It's of who really owns the soil. Water use and the dirt below are different things.

Either way good luck and hope you find something good!!

 

[NEPA History]

The thing is, he only owns to the HIGH waterline of the river. The Commonwealth of PA owns the river channel, which is deemed public property. He doesn't own it, so had no right to tell me to leave, and there is no prohibition on metal detecting river banks in PA. Thanks for commenting!

 

[Clay Diggins]

Ever check out a tax assessor's map? Any property that is by a pond, river, lake or stream shows the property line stopping at the water's edge. If that person should happen to own land on the other side of the water, it will be shown as a different plat. No one owns the water or the land under the water. If it has public access, the water (and the land beneath it) belongs to the town, city or state.

It's possible that's the case Tim. It could also be that submerged lands in RI are not taxable so they wouldn't be shown on an assessor's map?

Each State handles the Water / Land issue differently. The Eastern and Western States have very different laws from each other. You really can't know what the law is in any given state until you read the law itself.

 

[NEPA History]

I've tried to respond to a few people, but I'm new to Treasure Net and am not tech savvy, so bare with me! To those of you who commented about the property owners right to tell me to leave, and that a landowner owning what's in the ground, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY correct! That is my point though..He is NOT the owner of the natural river channel, therefore had no authority to tell me to leave or make me stop detecting! Regardless of his assertion, the natural river channel in PA between the natural high and low water line is owned by the Commonwealth, held in trust for the use of the public for all legal activities. ( Of course, removing a truckload of gravel would be altering the water flow and not be legal without a permit.) Metal detecting, fishing, artifact hunting, etc are all LEGAL activities. The whole point of my post is that the man has the mistaken belief that he owns something he does not! I wanted to educate people on what happened to me and show that the law is on our side in this particular case, at least in PA. It can be found on the PA Fish and Boat Commission web site. Thanks for everyone's imput, I'm happy that there's a conversation about it. Good luck out there everyone!

 

[smokeythecat]

Property lines? Ours was surveyed two years ago and the property line is smack dab in the MIDDLE of the 20' wide creek.

I dig private permissions only now, so...but busybodies are everywhere, hiding in their snowflake enclosures. We live in odd times.

 

[Nitric]

Property lines? Ours was surveyed two years ago and the property line is smack dab in the MIDDLE of the 20' wide creek.

I dig private permissions only now, so...but busybodies are everywhere, hiding in their snowflake enclosures. We live in odd times.

I just thought of something too.....Where I live right now has the same water lines on the tax map. Half of it is our yard! I just mowed it. Couldn't imagine a guy out there with a shovel telling me he has the "Right" to dig around. That probably wouldn't work out too well for him!! My 12 Gauge would say he doesn't!

And yes, I added the last sentence on purpose and already know what's coming. That's why I did it!

 

[smokeythecat]

Nitric, just call the cops after getting a nice close up pic of the trespasser and his license plate.

 

[Rookster]

Glad to here you won the battle.

 

[xaos]

There is a vast difference between access/egress rights and ownership. The property owner on the OP may have been correct.

Many people own property, with a mining company owning the minerals rights on the same property. Utility easements are another example.
The open ocean, you have free travel, but an oil company owns the mineral rights to the bottom area.

The State or Government may have access rights to a waterway, but they do not necessarily own the property, nor have rights to the property under it.

Always interesting, off the Coast of Seattle, streets were platted, and people actually own these properties under Puget Sound!
http://www.seattle.gov/dpd/Research/gis/webplots/k9e.pdf

 

[jeff of pa]

I haven't read all the Responses Yet, So this Response may be a rerun.

No matter what The rule may be on Access, Which as far as I know
You are allowed to walk along some Creeks, Depending on If they could ever have been Officially accessed by Boat or Not
& All Rivers.
even if you have the backing of Fish & Game to Walk along it to Fish & Maybe Trap.
All Government Officials
from archies , to Deputy Fife Type up to the Supreme Court have their own opinion on
Metal detecting along these routes.

you may be told yes you have the right to fish from there but digging is environmentally harmful
to the stability of river or creek bank.

Just like some Uninformed Officials in California, Made laws against Dredging in Creeks.

and in PA State Parks, You can Metal Detect Land, but Not Pan for Gold in Creeks.
yet in State Forestry land you Can Pan for Gold, But I think I read there is a Rule against digging Buttons.

I'm afraid your Probably Screwed in this Case, because the Best option is the Quiet Option.
But if the Land owner won't be quiet

Again, it depends on if you Get Deputy Barney fife the wrong time of the Month,
or Sheriff Andy Taylor when Aunt Bea gave her self a Fresh Shave.

Good Luck !
Keep us Updated.

 

[Nitric]

I do know in Michigan, you can canoe and fish in the streams, step onto the bank for any reason and get a ticket. I thought it was pretty roten that they would wait to give tickets in a bend where people were tipping canoes. Ok in the water, step on shore and you would get a ticket.Come around the corner and they are on the bank waiting. Pere Marquette We had to worry more about getting hit by Salmon than tickets though. Haha The stupid things will jump right into the side of the canoe.

 

[Gare]

Just think of it this way. Ask your self do you have the right to go work someone elses gold mining stream claim.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Those types of statute lands are generally bounded by the “Ordinary High Water Mark”.
The “High Water Mark” is something different.

The two delineations can be very far apart.

You can most definitely own the land upon which water flows or ponds.
Navigable Waterways is an exception.

Assessor Tax Maps are just what the name implies. Assessor Parcel Numbers do not represent legal parcels.

 

[jeff of pa]

Those types of statute lands are generally bounded by the “Ordinary High Water Mark”.
The “High Water Mark” is something different.

The two delineations can be very far apart.

You can most definitely own the land upon which water flows or ponds.
Navigable Waterways is an exception.

Assessor Tax Maps are just what the name implies. Assessor Parcel Numbers do not represent legal parcels.

Yep ! All Tax sites have Disclaimers

 

[flinthunter]

Ever check out a tax assessor's map? Any property that is by a pond, river, lake or stream shows the property line stopping at the water's edge. If that person should happen to own land on the other side of the water, it will be shown as a different plat. No one owns the water or the land under the water. If it has public access, the water (and the land beneath it) belongs to the town, city or state.

Not in Illinois, I can assure you.

 

[huntsman53]

There are so many confusing laws concerning lands, waterways and coastal waters, I think we should undraw all the lines and start over! First off, we would give the coastal waters of Florida to the people, not to the State of Florida nor the Federal Government.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Just think of it this way. Ask your self do you have the right to go work someone elses gold mining stream claim

I'm not referring to dinky streams where you can pan for gold. I'm talking about streams, rivers and ponds that you can navigate a canoe through. If they're public access and navigable, then home owners along the shoreline cannot claim the land under the water belongs to them. If the town, city or state manages and maintains the body of water, they own the land under it as well.

The only people on earth who would try to claim that someone owns the land under the water in front of their house are people who own waterfront property. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. I know you think you and your neighbors control that small pond or stream that you live on, but you don't. You just own the land and access to the pond at that particular point, period.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

There are so many confusing laws concerning lands, waterways and coastal waters, I think we should undraw all the lines and start over! First off, we would give the coastal waters of Florida to the people, not to the State of Florida nor the Federal Government.

When it comes to coastal lands, you can just throw EVERYTHING out the window. There are so many restrictions and conditions, that private property really has little meaning.

The same goes for property within a municipality. Nearly every use is by permission only and each activity has a fee associated with it. Refuse to follow the rules and they will take your home and ultimate personal freedom eventually.

 

[coinman123]

Where I am, rivers and even old dirt roads that haven't been in use for decades show up as their own plot of land owned by the town, on all of the GIS assessor maps I use. If you get out of the river though and metal detect off of that public land, then you are probably trespassing. There is so much woods owned by the town around where I am that I just try to avoid anything that might look private. Depending on where you are though, the waterway might be owned by a property owner, with rights of use belonging elsewhere. In that case you might want to avoid metal detecting there, depending on what those rights of use are.