robert marx's clue on the 1641 fleets location of loss

[ivan salis]

in one of his books he speaks about a patache being sent from Havana which found the patache PERSA from the 1641 fleet …..and at what distance it was "offshore" when found --5 leagues = 13 miles at 2.6 miles per Spanish league ---using this data and other "private information" (items found on the beach like a olive jar rim with a DR stamp that matched up exactly with one found on the conception off the DR)… so I think I have found the possible location of the patache PERSA ----NOTE it was reported by survivors from THE PERSA that they saw other 1641 fleet vessels sink within visual range of their vessel --thus once the pataches exact location is established --the location of the other 1641 fleet vessels should be fairly easy to find

 

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[Magoopeter]

in one of his books he speaks about a patache being sent from Havana which found the patache PERSA from the 1641 fleet …..and at what distance it was "offshore" when found --5 leagues = 13 miles at 2.6 miles per Spanish league ---using this data and other "private information" (items found on the beach like a olive jar rim with a DR stamp that matched up exactly with one found on the conception off the DR)… so I think I have found the possible location of the patache PERSA ----NOTE it was reported by survivors from THE PERSA that they saw other 1641 fleet vessels sink within visual range of their vessel --thus once the pataches exact location is established --the location of the other 1641 fleet vessels should be fairly easy to find

Hi Ivan, 13.5 miles out, were the top masts of the vessel still visible, or was it floating wreckage?

 

[Jason in Enid]

Hi Ivan, 13.5 miles out, were the top masts of the vessel still visible, or was it floating wreckage?

That was the same thought I had.

 

[Salvor6]

Ivan you are leaving out one important clue. Potter says after the survivors were rescued the Persa drifted for two days before finally sinking. It could be 100 miles north of the last reported position. The area you described has been searched to death with nothing found.

 

[Alexandre]

Using Potter and Marx to inquire about shipwrecks? You would be better off with a crystal ball..

 

[ivan salis]

records * alexandre -- salvor 6 --- while the boat might have sank 2 days after the crew was recovered * the important thing was when they were recovered they said that several vessels sank within visual range of them ---they clearly hit something to smash a hole in the vessel * now where would that be at? --once found that spot is the key ---to the vault (several 1641 ships in a smallish area )

 

[Magoopeter]

records * alexandre -- salvor 6 --- while the boat might have sank 2 days after the crew was recovered * the important thing was when they were recovered they said that several vessels sank within visual range of them ---they clearly hit something to smash a hole in the vessel * now where would that be at? --once found that spot is the key ---to the vault (several 1641 ships in a smallish area )

I have only seen a brief mention of this in one of Marx’s books, 5 leagues around latitude 30, has any one seen the actual Spanish report, is it relating to three ships sunk of shore within sight of each other, or is it the distance and latitude were the survivors were picked up?

Other post in previous threads seem to indicate that three ships sunk offshore others against a cliff?

How accurate would the report of the position be, could this be PA, what amount of leeway would you allow for it being an approximant position?

Ivan your on to something?

 

[Bum Luck]

I have only seen a brief mention of this in one of Marx’s books, 5 leagues around latitude 30, has any one seen the actual Spanish report, is it relating to three ships sunk of shore within sight of each other, or is it the distance and latitude were the survivors were picked up?

Other post in previous threads seem to indicate that three ships sunk offshore others against a cliff?

How accurate would the report of the position be, could this be PA, what amount of leeway would you allow for it being an approximant position?

Ivan your on to something?

I can't say I've kept records on this, but what I can remember was that latitude positions that I've been able to verify have commonly been off as much as a degree which at the common diameter of the astrolabe wheel would be only a millimeter. A degree is 69 nautical miles at 26 degrees North, so you can see that it wasn't precision GPS. Lotta ocean. Most results were probably better than that though, the least reading was probably a quarter of a degree (millimeter), or 15 miles.

Sources of error were failure to adjust if that were possible, manufacturing tolerances (ha!), a pitching and rolling deck, and since they were suspended by a string, wind. Let's not forget not being adept at the principles of math either, including not understanding errors. Results were best taken on land, and repeated measurements from different astrolabes over time and averaged out.

The Davis quadrant was also used, but the accuracy of observations were limited by the length (or diameter) of the device, about what I outlined above.

Hope that helps.

 

[Alexandre]

I pretty much doubt a Spanish ship of this time would be named "Persa".


Also, if you cannot match a Marx reference with an actual historical document, it was a figment of his imagination. My two cents are: the ship never existed.

 

[Magoopeter]

Old post but good,
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/292181-1641-plate-fleet-information.html

 

[ivan salis]

alexander * ever heard of DURO -- THE FAMOUS SPANISH NAVAL HISTORIAN? -- yes that duro ---well in his book it list ships lost from the 1641 fleet -- including the 6 gun patache vessel PERSA * and I will take his historical research over your "thoughts" everyday of the week---records and facts that is the basis of real research --not "I think but rather I know" ...

 

[ARC]

Hmmm perhaps there is some misinformation here...

Ivan... I have heard you mention the "Persa" many times...

I for one have never heard of this ship...

But I have heard of the "La Presa".

AKA... The "San Pablo La Presa"

 

[Alexandre]

alexander * ever heard of DURO -- THE FAMOUS SPANISH NAVAL HISTORIAN? -- yes that duro ---well in his book it list ships lost from the 1641 fleet -- including the 6 gun patache vessel PERSA * and I will take his historical research over your "thoughts" everyday of the week---records and facts that is the basis of real research --not "I think but rather I know" ...

Which book? Duro wrote several books.

Here you have all of his Spanish Armada books, online. Kindly look at them and point me to volume and page number for that "Persa" ship...

Cesáreo Fernández Duro - Armada Española (desde la unión de los reinos de Castilla y Aragón) - Magazines & Bulletins - Armada Española - Ministerio de Defensa - Gobierno de España

 

[Alexandre]

I will take his historical research over your "thoughts" everyday of the week---records and facts that is the basis of real research --not "I think but rather I know" ...

What you are looking for is this...

Here are my thoughts on the 1641 fleet...View attachment 1772066

 

[Alexandre]

.. and this...View attachment 1772067

 

[ivan salis]

a very simple typo by me -- persa vs presa--(being the E and R keys are next to one another)-- the 100 ton 6 gun patache listed on the page shown in duro's book * bottom line is due to the find of a olive jar neck piece with the same exact DR markings to that of ones found on the Conception found by none other than bert webber -- photos of which were sent to mr webber who stated this --leads me to believe I found the area where the 1641 fleet sank at

btw the attachment will not work

 

[Alexandre]

It works fine, here. By the way, the patacho did not sink.

 

[Alexandre]

The register of the san pedro y san pablo, of 100 tons, aka the Patacho La Presa, as so well pointed by AARC.

 

[Magoopeter]

Hi Alexandre, I have found the links to the attachments are not working on your posts, I would be most interested to read your thoughts on the 1641 fleet, could you copy and paste the information into a post please.

Also have you any published work on your work or excavations, would be interest in reading any work published by yourself, could you post links to any of your work, videos are interesting thanks for posting them

 

[Alexandre]

Hi Alexandre, I have found the links to the attachments are not working on your posts, I would be most interested to read your thoughts on the 1641 fleet, could you copy and paste the information into a post please.

I am posting pictures of relevant documents, I see them fine, here. You don´t?

Also have you any published work on your work or excavations, would be interest in reading any work published by yourself, could you post links to any of your work, videos are interesting thanks for posting them

You can find several papers and articles of mine, here, but they are mostly in Portuguese:

https://fcsh-unl.academia.edu/AlexandreMonteiro