Romania metal detecting question.

[JustKeepDigging]

Hello all! I had a quick question in regards to metal detecting in Romania. My fathers side of the family lives in Romania and they own a bunch of land. They told me to just buy a ticket and I could detect all I wanted. Now, I read online that it may be illegal? Is that so even if I'm on my own land? What's the best way going about this?

 

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[pepperj]

I'll be the first to admit I have a very low caution threshold risk assessment. 40 yrs. of md'ing has brought me to be calloused I guess :/ But on the other hand, I feel that many md'rs are *too* cautious, and are over-thinking things.

If I were going to hunt there, I'd correspond with locals. See their show & tells (which you can see on-line they post) and get the real skinny. Because as you know: Sometimes actual practice and technicalities, can be two different things. Perhaps it's religiously enforced and kept by all the locals there . So they only ever hunt for modern stuff, and always-ever turn in their old coins, gleefully accepted by the police ? And if they find a bonanza, they don't sell themselves, and ... instead .... wait to get the 35 or 45% reimburse ? Could very well be.

I guess it's one of those things if a person that obtained a permit, than did find a hoard and was alone in a field with no eyes around would 35-40% of what they(law) deemed the value cut it, or would the 100% of the market value be the worth the risk. There were countries that I travelled through that the desire of detecting around things that were 1000's of years old was appealing, but common sense of being free quickly squashed those desires, then again times change and the world is smaller now.

 

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[WaterScoop]

Well here we are, 49 posts into the thread, and someone has finally posted an actual law. ?

I beg to differ...I posted the law in post #3. Your tools are getting dull you need to sharpen your ax next time you want to “chop”some wood.



I appreciate your calluses and all your years of experience in metal detecting .it is because fine people like you I joined this forum. To further my wisdom. One of my favorite quotes of all time is a quote from Socrates...


however that being said I know of may cops that died weeks and days before their retirement ...

WHY?
because all of their training and caution was thrown to the wind because they were too focused on Retiring...

Im pretty sure there is a life lesson in there somewhere.

Stay SHARP Tom!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I guess it's one of those things if a person that obtained a permit, than did find a hoard and was alone in a field with no eyes around....

Kind of reminds me of a permit, that I think the parks dept. of New York issued for their parks. It was easy and cheap to get. Not sure if anyone ever got carded to show it , but .. oh well. And there were various small print rules printed on the back of the card. Some silly stuff like "not within 10 ft. of a tree" and "turn in all items of $25 or-more value to the city", etc...

At the end of a few years, with lots and lots of cards passed out, the city was asked if anyone had ever actually come in to turn in items of value. I think they could recall perhaps 2 objects (rings or whatever) as a result of someone following that rule on the card. Ok, you tell me: Were all those legions of md'rs simply never finding objects over $25 value ? And the average NY city hall person probably didn't even know of the minutia fine print on the card anyhow.

And so too, do I wonder, if people are coming in to police stations with 101 yr. old coins in Romania (now that we know it's not illegal to detect), I wonder if this would simply annoy the police. I mean, how long is it going to take, with these things being brought in, before someone thinks "gee, do we really want all these yahoos digging up the past ?" In other words, it just keeps a perpetual spotlight on our hobby, the more bureaucracy we create.

Bear in mind that "100 yrs." is NOT old in Romania. I bet that, like England, coins less than 500 yrs. old are almost a nuisance, like clad. So I would check with local hunters, see who's ever found (gasp) a 101 or more year old coin, and ask if they really trot down to the nearest police to turn in. Perhaps they do.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I beg to differ...I posted the law in post #3. ...

You copied and pasted something in Romanian language. Dunno how to plug text into a translator. And usually, don't those computerized translators leave the grammar scrambled up ? But in any case, it was foreign language that wasn't translated before paste.

The other 2 links were of a cache or whatever found there (which didn't go into laws or legal issues, that I could tell). And a wiki link to the country in general (not addressing md'ing issues, that I could tell).

Aside from that, thanx for the compliments. Yes this is a bee in my bonnet, I admit. And I appreciate you intellectually challenging forumites too. You give good "balanced" comment as well.

 

[pepperj]

Kind of reminds me of a permit, that I think the parks dept. of New York issued for their parks. It was easy and cheap to get. Not sure if anyone ever got carded to show it , but .. oh well. And there were various small print rules printed on the back of the card. Some silly stuff like "not within 10 ft. of a tree" and "turn in all items of $25 or-more value to the city", etc...

At the end of a few years, with lots and lots of cards passed out, the city was asked if anyone had ever actually come in to turn in items of value. I think they could recall perhaps 2 objects (rings or whatever) as a result of someone following that rule on the card. Ok, you tell me: Were all those legions of md'rs simply never finding objects over $25 value ? And the average NY city hall person probably didn't even know of the minutia fine print on the card anyhow.

And so too, do I wonder, if people are coming in to police stations with 101 yr. old coins in Romania (now that we know it's not illegal to detect), I wonder if this would simply annoy the police. I mean, how long is it going to take, with these things being brought in, before someone thinks "gee, do we really want all these yahoos digging up the past ?" In other words, it just keeps a perpetual spotlight on our hobby, the more bureaucracy we create.

Bear in mind that "100 yrs." is NOT old in Romania. I bet that, like England, coins less than 500 yrs. old are almost a nuisance, like clad. So I would check with local hunters, see who's ever found (gasp) a 101 or more year old coin, and ask if they really trot down to the nearest police to turn in. Perhaps they do.

In having done 8 trips to England detecting any silver still brought a smile, digging a 200 yr old one also did, so did a 2000 yr old one did. Digging a hundred greenies over a couple of weeks was the norm, getting ones with some detail still got a smile especially ones that had great detail and were laying on the top. The 300 yr-10% silver/gold for an item applied and everything I saw dug that qualified was turned over in a heartbeat.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... The 300 yr-10% silver/gold for an item applied and everything I saw dug that qualified was turned over in a heartbeat.

Yes. Britain is a unique and rare exception. And yes, UK hunters have no problem with the "crown rule" (caches and stuff have to be reported). It has turned out to be a workable system, that the hunter gets fair market value, and museums and archies get to study stuff, etc... Thus practically no reason to fudge the system or not report, and so forth.

However, I believe the UK system doesn't even count individual coins and singular rings and such in this "report" system. It's got to be something very stupendous. Like a cache, or gold jewel encrusted sword, etc... A FAR cry from the supposed "100" yr. thing of Romania.

 

[WaterScoop]

Just go to Google and type :” google translator romanian to english“

 

[WaterScoop]

...

However, I believe the UK system doesn't even count individual coins and singular rings and such in this "report" system. It's got to be something very stupendous. Like a cache, or gold jewel encrusted sword, etc... A FAR cry from the supposed "100" yr. thing of Romania.

Nevertheless if you want to detect in Romania the GOLDEN RULE applies....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Just go to Google and type :” google translator romanian to english“ ...

thanx. I did that with your text, and here's what it comes up as:

"Order no. 251/409/2275 / M 115 of May 31, 2004 for the approval of the Technical Norms regarding the possession and commercialization of metal detectors, Government Ordinance no. 43/2000 on the protection of archaeological heritage and the declaration of archaeological sites as areas of national interest, Law 182/2000 republished in 2008 and Law 422/2001 republished in 2006."

Couple of observations: I see the word "possession" there, but nothing about "permit"
or possession = "wrong", or whatever. So that part is rather cryptic and
inconclusive. As for all the "protection of archaeological sites", this is
interesting. Because not all land, border to border, is an "archaeological site". Right ?

 

[WaterScoop]

thanx. I did that with your text, and here's what it comes up as:

"Order no. 251/409/2275 / M 115 of May 31, 2004 for the approval of the Technical Norms regarding the possession and commercialization of metal detectors, Government Ordinance no. 43/2000 on the protection of archaeological heritage and the declaration of archaeological sites as areas of national interest, Law 182/2000 republished in 2008 and Law 422/2001 republished in 2006."

Couple of observations: I see the word "possession" there, but nothing about "permit"
or possession = "wrong", or whatever. So that part is rather cryptic and
inconclusive. As for all the "protection of archaeological sites", this is
interesting. Because not all land, border to border, is an "archaeological site". Right ?

You’re killing me Tom....LOL

That law references additional subsections 251/409/2275/M115 and title of the ordinance “possession of metal detectors”

It’s like saying 187 of the Penal Code is MURDER. Now you need to dive into the statute and see the elements of the crime and punishments for MURDER

Remember my post #49 36 pages OF THE LAW.

YOU are NOT going to win this one Tom. WHY you ask? Because I have a TommyGun... But I will give you an A+ for effort. LOL

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....Remember my post #49 36 pages OF THE LAW....

Yes, that's where actual law (chapter and verse) came out. And perhaps "possession" is defined there And we then saw that md'ing is not illegal. In-so-far as if you had a "permit" (which can be routine attainable perhaps?). Yes I figured post # 3 had tentacles to follow.

As for the 36 pages of Romanian language laws linked in #49, that's too much to feed into the google translator. It has a space limit, which would be a few pages at a time. So do tell: Does the law define "archaeological site" to specify that that means the entire country ? Or just "archaeological sites" ? In England they would call those "registered" sites. In the USA, they'd have a smithsonian trinomial # assigned . To receive such a designation.

Thus in-lieu of post #'s 3's reference to sites like that , that are off-limits (within the 100 yr. rule ?) then is that rule for "archaeological sites" ? Or border to border ? Because if we're talking "archaeological sites", well gee, SO TOO can ARPA be said to cover (in the context of land-it-pertains to) certain sites. Yet we know that not all land is an "archaeological site".

Have you translated to discern that distinction ?

 

[WaterScoop]

If you will not translate for yourself there is NOTHING Ican say or do to explain to you.


METAL DETECTORS ARE ILLEGAL without proper paperwork. I am sure you can metal detect all you want with your bare hands
According to the law The entire country is considered an archeological site. I’m sorry you can not t read Romanian and you don’t have time to translate. All 36 pages. You have given me more excuses then facts my dear Tom from California.

View attachment 1532115

When I offer you proof you say you can’t read it because you do not read Romanian, when I Tell you to use a translator you tell me that you dont know how, when I show you how you say that the law is missing sections when I tell you about the missing sections in the 36 page post #49 you say that you dont have time to translate it.

NOT MY FAULT You can not read and write Romanian
NOT MY FAULT You don’t have time to use the translator


I now must call BS on your statement that the entire country is NOT an archeological site.
SHOW ME where YOU have the back up for that statement.

YOUR lack of ability to debate about Romanian culture, customs and government is
Not a lack of knowledge in my ability to debate with you. I can honestly say that I know more
About this topic then you and from the support I have gotten in this post I would say that others feel the same.

I am all for debating you but please dont be a bully.




200+ years of US history is a drop in the bucket to The Balkans rich history deep history.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

If you will not translate for yourself .....

Ok, I gave it an effort. The translator will allow up to about 3/4 of a page full of digits at a time . Got through several pages. The grammar is very chopped up & disjointed. That left sentences making little to no sense. I will just take your word for it on the definition of "archaeological sites" to mean every inch of land, public or private.

But I must tell you that I was not pulling this question out of thin air. Because the EXACT SAME scenario happened with the EXACT SAME words, here in the USA :

In our state of Kentucky, a purist archie (bless his little heart) in a university there made the claim that ARPA's reach (our fed. level law, that spells out cultural heritage) extends down. Not only to federal land , but also state, to county, and to city lands within Kentucky. Thus the "50 yr. rule" would even apply to city & county land, for example. The archie making this claim did indeed point to laws on Kentucky books, that showed this subrogation of law for "archaeological sites" to lower level public lands below fed. level.

This link circulated around, and caused some Kentucky hunters fears. As I studied the archie's claim in the article, I spotted the curious wording: "archaeological sites". I found the archie's email address, since he was listed at the university's website, and send them an email. Explaining I'd read their article. And that I took issue with the claim that ARPA extended to all other levels of land. Pointing out that not all public land in Kentucky is an "archaeological site". Explaining that to GET such a designation, is a function of the Smithsonian Trinomial system. If a city or county or state land spot had such a designated site on it, then sure, perhaps those are added to the list of spots you can't bother. But if they do NOT get that designation, then ... logically... they are not an "archaeological site". Doh. And thus not covered by ARPA. The archie lost that debate. See ?

So you see , it was not a baseless musing. Might not apply to Romania , but ... was a valiant effort, eh ?

 

[pepperj]

The one thing that no one can debate on the issue is this fact that here we have the basis of "presumed innocent until proved guilty" In the other countries I wouldn't push this as many it's the 180 " presumed guilty until proved innocent".

 

[Mackaydon]

For some unknown reason this thread reminds me of two sayings:
(1) [FONT=&quot]It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. Mark Twain[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif](2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. Unknown
[/FONT]I'll remain silent except for my initial post to this thread.
Don......

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... " presumed guilty until proved innocent".

And the other one thing we can know here is: There are ways it can be practiced legally there. Hence nothing to be "guilty" about, in the first place

I think there's a mental image that comes up, in westerner's minds, whenever a country of middle-eastern culture is discussed: The go-to image is something out of Raiders of the Lost Ark movie. Swashbuckling camel-riding warriors. That run around cutting people's heads and hands off for minor offenses. But ... believe it or not ... they're people too. They have normal cities, with buildings, streets, jobs, churches, friends, family, etc....

Or if the country-in-question is any of the former soviet union or their satellite states: Then the immediate image is a Hollywood movie scene of KGB police running around roughing up people, demanding ID papers. Meanwhile ... James Bond is doing some other stunt. Made for great movies though!

Not saying that some countries , and their laws, aren't more corrupt than the USA or Britain. But on the other hand: the images cast about by some Hollywood movies isn't exactly accurate either.

 

[wingmaster]

It isn't so cut and dry in this country either most states have laws that state if an object is over 100yds old, it's illegal to dig them up and I dont think it makes a difference if its on your property or not. HH

 

[Tom_in_CA]

It isn't so cut and dry in this country either most states have laws that state if an object is over 100yds old, it's illegal to dig them up and I dont think it makes a difference if its on your property or not. HH

Yes. I have no doubt that if a foreigner were to be travelling to the USA, and were to "inquire ahead of time" to enough bored pencil pushing bureaucrats, HE TOO could receive "dire warnings" of various laws and stiff penalties that apply to his question. Eg.: Lost & found laws, ARPA that may or may not subrogate down, alter/deface, shipwreck salvor laws, tax-laws on values, annoy/molest, disturb wildlife, take/remove/harvest verbiage, parade permits, etc.....

But as you can see, reality is far different. Reason is ? : Actual practice. Example: If 100 people gather to ply their model RC controlled toy boats on the pond in Central Park New York, NO ONE WONDERS: "Is it legal to float a toy boat on the water?". It's just ASSUMED that it's ok. Lest how else would these 100 people be doing it ? Doh!

Thus my test for md'ing legalities is : What is REALLY going on and does anyone REALLY care. Not : Can I fetch a no if I ask enough bored archies.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

And then ... humorously ... if an oddball country comes up on these discussions: Where ANYONE thinks it's "not allowed" and someone else says "where is that written ?" Guess what each side will do to resolve any question or interpretation ? Drum roll ..... they'll ask ! I mean, ... who better to ask, than the entity themselves , to resolve this tie ?

Is anyone starting to see the self-fulfilling vicious loop ? This attempt to "get to the bottom of it" will often mean: Rush to a local consulate lawyer archie in authority (after all, you "wouldn't want to get arrested"). Then ... lo & behold: The self-fulfilling vicious loop of more safe answer "no's", as your question is couched in national antiquity laws (that never applied to casual fumble fingers stuff or beaches, etc....). The old "no one cared till you asked" phenomenon on a national basis. But hey, we can all sit around and pat ourselves on the back now, eh ? It's as if md'rs can be their own worst enemy

 

[pepperj]

And then ... humorously ... if an oddball country comes up on these discussions: Where ANYONE thinks it's "not allowed" and someone else says "where is that written ?" Guess what each side will do to resolve any question or interpretation ? Drum roll ..... they'll ask ! I mean, ... who better to ask, than the entity themselves , to resolve this tie ?

Is anyone starting to see the self-fulfilling vicious loop ? This attempt to "get to the bottom of it" will often mean: Rush to a local consulate lawyer archie in authority (after all, you "wouldn't want to get arrested"). Then ... lo & behold: The self-fulfilling vicious loop of more safe answer "no's", as your question is couched in national antiquity laws (that never applied to casual fumble fingers stuff or beaches, etc....). The old "no one cared till you asked" phenomenon on a national basis. But hey, we can all sit around and pat ourselves on the back now, eh ? It's as if md'rs can be their own worst enemy

It only takes one phone call to wreck somebody's day even over here Tom. Happened a few years ago a jealous person called on a few members of another forum. They received the knock on the door and had to prove where and how they got their collection of finds from. I received a email of warning from two members about what was happening and not to post up finds as it could happen as well.

We're very fortunate to be living where we are in this world and from travelling in many other countries and seeing how the law works it's not fantasy/Hollywood it actually does happen we just sensationalize points for our liking/profit for viewership.