Saving what you find

[Jyorsky]

With talk of economy tanking,,,will the cr'er be ahead as paper money will be worthless
And only, silver type coins will have any value for commerce
Just random thoughts,,,,,
Oh yeah long dry spell here

 

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[ugotit22]

I'm sorry but you've just not done your research. All I see are a lot of whats ifs and badly timed "buyins" to justify your reasoning. Your example is a great one for why trying to buy-in is such a gamble which has already been discussed in previous posts. I can easily say that those who bought silver in the early 70s and sold in early 2011 made off with the best investment in history. You see why that is all unbased and not a valid rebuttal? The point is you think silver is only valuable if it's got a high dollar amount attached to it. Thats the classic thinking of someone who does not understand what AU and AG are. They ARE the value. During the collapse of the Zimbabwe fiat currency some years ago, I wouldn't have sold my AG for trillions of their dollars. It does not matter at what price you could sell PMs the paper currency in question is worthless. Your flawed assumption is that AG is what has been changing value when it's only the dollar (aka fiat) that has been changing. 1oz of AG is always 1oz of AG. There is a reason why its so easy to sell your AG.

During every economic collapse (not social collapse) throughout history there has always been one thing that has consistently preserved wealth. Hmmm I wonder what it could be?

Also regarding hoarding ammo, food etc. As i mentioned in my first post, I'm talking about a financial collapse. Not social collapse. There is a very big difference.

You can speculate about AG being worth only pennies (I prefer the term cents) 75 years from now based on nothing but your opinion or you can look at the the history of the dollar and realize that any sort of investment you've made in the Dollar has been a complete loss. It's actually the Dollar that is now worth mere "pennies" than what it was years ago. AG is a much better inheritance to leave for my posterity 75 years from now. History and economics are not wrong.

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Good luck with that

 

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[ugotit22]

Paper money can't be worthless and at the same time convenient to pay bills and cover living expenses.

Yup

 

[Darth Walker]

I sell all. Sorry, I mean I donate it. Sorry IRS.

 

[SilverFace]

Paper money can't be worthless and at the same time convenient to pay bills and cover living expenses.

Fiat currencies are worthless in reality. The problem is we no longer live in a world of economic reality. We have let governments, central banks and absurd Keynesian nonsense taught by most econ professors in colleges and universities and so-called financial experts in the media completely screw up our economy and monetary system and our minds. The USD is really nothing more than just an illusion of money. Even someone as mainstream as Steve Forbes who just wrote a book himself about the demise of the USD recently said "when a private citizen prints money in their home/garage its called counterfeiting, when the government does it (prints money) its called stimulus." Regardless of who does the money printing its all counterfeiting.

As statch's pic so accurately illustrates, the USD has lost at least 95% of its purchasing power in the past 100 years since the Fed was created, which is not a coincidence - rather its a consequence. And its not just the USD that is an illusion. This whole economic recovery we supposedly have is just an illusion as well. The Fed with its cheap money policy and continued price fixing of interest rates at 0% has managed to re-inflate asset bubbles and encourage reckless speculative investing in the housing, stock and bond markets (as well as the USD) to give the illusion of an economic recovery. But this Keynesian nonsense of growing an economy with cheap money, more reckless irresponsible spending and debt mainly for the purpose of just blowing it all on consumption is not what grows an economy - all that does is further weaken an economy. What actually grows an economy is responsible savings, capital investment and production.

This isn't a matter of opinion people. The basic fundamentals of economics are like basic math. Its just a matter of understanding the truth. Statch, I agree with you and firmly believe that history and economics are very strongly correlated and to have an accurate understanding of real economics requires an accurate understanding of history. But most people don't even understand or remember recent history and what caused the financial crisis of '07/'08. That was caused by years of artificially low interest rates, a cheap money policy and reckless spending. So what has been the supposed solution to that problem? Even lower interest rates (from 1% to 0%), more money printing and more spending. What's even more ludicrous than the ridiculous monetary and fiscal policies themselves is that most people actually believe this insanity is how economies should work and think that anyone who refutes this blatantly absurd nonsense is/are the ones who are idiots and extremists.

Wake up America! The fundamentals of economics don't just apply to everyone else - they apply to us as well. We cant just make up our own absurd laws of economics and expect it to last indefinitely. We've been screwing the world with this USD/world reserve currency con for decades now but it cant last forever. And the longer it takes to come to an end the worse it will be for all the believers in and owners of the USD. Like I said before, having an opinion about the basic fundamentals of economics is like having an opinion about basic math. It doesn't matter what you believe, 2 + 2 still equals 4. Its just a matter of understanding and recognizing the truth.

 

[ugotit22]

Fiat currencies are worthless in reality. The problem is we no longer live in a world of economic reality. We have let governments, central banks and absurd Keynesian nonsense taught by most econ professors in colleges and universities and so-called financial experts in the media completely screw up our economy and monetary system and our minds. The USD is really nothing more than just an illusion of money. Even someone as mainstream of Steve Forbes who just wrote a book himself about the demise of the USD recently said "when a private citizen prints money in their home/garage its called counterfeiting, when the government does it its called stimulus." Regardless of who does the money printing its all counterfeiting.

As statch's pic so accurately illustrates, the USD has lost at least 95% of its purchasing power in the past 100 years since the Fed was created, which is not a coincidence - rather its a consequence. And its not just the USD that is an illusion. This whole economic recovery we supposedly have is just an illusion as well. The Fed with its cheap money policy and continued price fixing of interest rates at 0% has managed to re-inflate asset bubbles and encourage reckless speculative investing in the housing, stock and bond markets (as well as the USD) to give the illusion of an economic recovery. But this Keynesian nonsense of growing an economy with cheap money, more reckless irresponsible spending and debt mainly for the purpose of just blowing it all on consumption is not what grows an economy - all that does is further weaken an economy. What actually grows an economy is responsible savings, capital investment and production.

This isn't a matter of opinion people. The basic fundamentals of economics are like basic math. Its just a matter of understanding the truth. Statch, I agree with you and firmly believe that history and economics are very strongly correlated and to have an accurate understanding of real economics requires an accurate understanding of history. But most people don't even understand or remember recent history and what caused the financial crisis of '07/'08. That was caused by years of artificially low interest rates, a cheap money policy and reckless spending. So what has been the supposed solution to that problem? Even lower interest rates (from 1% to 0%), more money printing and more spending. What's even more ludicrous than the ridiculous monetary and fiscal policies themselves is that most people actually believe this insanity is how economies should work and think that anyone who refutes this blatantly absurd nonsense is/are the ones who are idiots and extremists.

Wake up America! The fundamentals of economics don't just apply to everyone else - they apply to us as well. We cant just make up our own absurd laws of economics and expect it to last indefinitely. We've been screwing the world with this USD/world reserve currency con for decades now but it cant last forever. And the longer it takes to come to an end the worse it will be for all the believers in and owners of the USD. Like I said before, having an opinion about the basic fundamentals of economics is like having an opinion about basic math. It doesn't matter what you believe, 2 + 2 still equals 4. Its just a matter of understanding and recognizing the truth.

Again the whole point is at this given time you have to pay your bills with the fiat bills you speak of. If you and stash are in such agreement of the impending fiancal callapse of the dollar then it begs the question. Why waste time sorting coin silvetr and start stashing 999 bars or gold.
Your reasoning for crh is increase your pm hoard the impending doomsday of our fiancal system.
If it's as close as you both feel stop wasting time searching boxes and start buying as much pm as you can.

 

[TXJohn777]

Very well put, I wouldn't trust my money anywhere else.. PM's are the way to go. Great post..Thank you.

 

[SilverFace]

Again the whole point is at this given time you have to pay your bills with the fiat bills you speak of. If you and stash are in such agreement of the impending fiancal callapse of the dollar then it begs the question. Why waste time sorting coin silvetr and start stashing 999 bars or gold.
Your reasoning for crh is increase your pm hoard the impending doomsday of our fiancal system.
If it's as close as you both feel stop wasting time searching boxes and start buying as much pm as you can.

I was buying and hoarding silver years before I started CRHing on a regular basis. My only regret is that I didn't learn and understand about money and economics years before I did. If I had allocated my wealth out of the USD and the U.S stock market and into PM's 15 years ago I would be a relatively wealthy man today. Although my past ignorance about money and economics has cost be significantly in the past, my current allocation of savings and investments in PM's and PM stocks today will still reward me significantly in the years ahead. But as long as I can still keep finding silver @ face, I plan on continuing to CRH as well.

 

[SilverFace]

Statch, you have given a very accurate and articulate assessment concerning the truth about sound money and the importance of understanding history to accurately understand real economics. And your pic gives a great illustration of how the Fed has been so instrumentally important in inflating the value of our currency away. The primary role of central banks is to inflate the money supply to perpetuate and facilitate increasing amounts of irresponsible government spending. Inflation is good for debtors like the US government because all the inflation erases the debt away without it ever actually having to be repaid to the creditors and 0% interest rates further enables the government to continue its reckless irresponsible borrowing and spending.

The single best reason for the importance of owning PM's today can be summed up in two words - Janet Yellen. She is a perfect example of a failed school system taught by clueless, ignorant and ideological teachers and professors that teach and brainwash students into believing Keynesian nonsense and inaccurate and personally biased and ignorant views of history. That's why she was chosen as the new Fed head - because she understands politics and is a devoted and brainwashed Keynesian, but understands nothing about and has no regard for real fundamental economics.

 

[fish on!]

All of the people talking about history being the best indicator for the future should really look at historical silver charts. Other than the last few years and the manipulation in the 1980's silver historical charts indicate that silver is quite possibly the WORST investment on the face of the planet. I think I am going to come back and bump this thread in 10 years when you are all sitting on a giant pile of silver that is worth roughly $20 an ounce.

 

[ugotit22]

All of the people talking about history being the best indicator for the future should really look at historical silver charts. Other than the last few years and the manipulation in the 1980's silver historical charts indicate that silver is quite possibly the WORST investment on the face of the planet. I think I am going to come back and bump this thread in 10 years when you are all sitting on a giant pile of silver that is worth roughly $20 an ounce.

Agreed

 

[SilverFace]

Silver shouldn't really be thought of as an investment. It's sound money with a real store of value. It's actually supposed to be $1 an oz. The fact that's it's currently $20 oz even with the artificial market manipulation of world central banks spending hundreds of billions of dollars every year just to keep the USD from collapsing proves silver's real value.

As statch's chart of the 100 year depreciation of the USD clearly shows, the worst monetary/financial decisions throughout history have been in repeated failed attempts in creating, using and owning fiat currencies. Fiat currencies have and always will fail and gold and silver have and always will be sound money. This time is no different and next time wont be either.

 

[Joe777Cool]

I disagree. CRHrs will not necessarily be ahead but rather PM hoarders. I've been amazed to see many CRHrs sell off their finds for worthless paper. When I started this hobby a long time ago I realized that CRH consists of three types of individual.

1) Someone like me who started the hobby looking to trade their counterfeit debt backed promissory notes for real money (@ face value).

2) Avid coin collectors who see the numismatic value of each find and love the rich history and diversity of their collection.

3) Those who are motivated by the accumulation of fiat and see CRH as a way of paying some bills.

I personally have never understood group 3. When you get involved in CRH, I would assume that there would be some concept of real value. You cull the AG and dump the clad. Have they ever asked themselves why they do that? Because when you sell your AG, you're really actually dumping it for clad.

Welcome to the site.....with that having been said what you posted above is crap. The majority of the people that I personally know who do this dont fall into any 1 or your 3 categories but overlap several you mentioned along with some you didnt. I, for example, stack silver (1), am a coin collector and seller (2), have often used my finds to help pay bills (3), but often I find myself hunting for the pure excitement of possibly striking it rich (4 - not mentioned). We all understand the real value of silver - but I also understand the real value of my house, car, and groceries so sometimes those CRH gains/proceeds help make ends meet.

 

[statch]

Welcome to the site.....with that having been said what you posted above is crap. The majority of the people that I personally know who do this dont fall into any 1 or your 3 categories but overlap several you mentioned along with some you didnt. I, for example, stack silver (1), am a coin collector and seller (2), have often used my finds to help pay bills (3), but often I find myself hunting for the pure excitement of possibly striking it rich (4 - not mentioned). We all understand the real value of silver - but I also understand the real value of my house, car, and groceries so sometimes those CRH gains/proceeds help make ends meet.

I've actually been a member here long than you have but I do appreciate the gesture though.

Anyways, your group 4 still fits within my group 3. Your desire to accumulate fiat by "striking it rich" is pretty clear. I never said you couldn't be a combination.

Please feel free to tell me what other reasons people have that you've encountered. I'd love to hear them.

Your home and putting food on your table should ALWAYS be more important than AG. No doubt about it. My point of view comes from this:

CRH is not a get rich quick scheme. Many CRHers don't typically make much more then they spend doing it. It has a very low ROI. Although we all hit it good at times, it typically only makes up for long dry periods. If you're so concerned about keeping a roof over your head or food on the table the return on your time and gas would be much better spent on a real income producing job or business. Just my opinion. I have a family I provide for and own three business in order to accomplish this. Everyones financial circumstances are different but I personally would never rely on CRH finds to pay my bills. I've got too many important obligations to rely on such an inconsistent hobby to make ends meet.

If my main income was not enough to support my family and basic lifestyle I would do one of two things. 1) Cut back my spending to meet my income or 2) Increase my income to meet my spending. I would do this not by *hoping* to strike it rich with a silly hobby but rather spend less time on my hobbies and get another stable job or start another business.

I look at CRH as a fun and productive hobby which helps save for the future but definitely not to pay my bills with. Do you see my point? If i'm finding myself paying bills with my CRH finds then I would be worried. What would happen if I don't find much this month? Would I default on my bills? My CRH finds function as a high interest bearing long term savings account for me. Not as a source of paying my day to day bills. I choose to spend now that which does not provide any returns in the future (fiat), and save that which will increase my returns over time (AG). Simple.

Again this is just me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and financial decisions. Silverface has done a great job explaining the current US economic outlook but I feel that no one will understand US or world economics until they understand and come to terms with their personal economics. Smart choices vs Not so smart choices. Long term planning vs The here and the now. Patience vs Instant gratification.

 

[starkizzle]

The best part of this whole thread is that we all get looked at alil funny asking for change at the bank but you guys all have a firm grip on reality, I'm glad to be in this community

 

[Jyorsky]

Side question......
Even though Ike's, clad version, do not have, ag, it is still hard cash, versus paper money......
Keep or spend

 

[SilverFace]

Side question......
Even though Ike's, clad version, do not have, ag, it is still hard cash, versus paper money......
Keep or spend

Even with the debasement of silver dollars to clad dollars, clad Ike's at least still have some intrinisic value (18.25% of fv - same as clad half dollars) whereas fiat currencies like the USD have no intrisic value whatsoever. But obviously its much better and more practical to hoard and save silver than debased clads coins like Ike's. Saving, spending or selling your Ike's is a personal decision but its obviously more rational and logical to own them than devalued fiat currency - but we don't live in economically rational times.

I currently have 100 or more Ike's that I might try to sell sometime soon for a small profit. Not because I really want or appreciate fiat currency but debased coins still are only worth a small fraction of thier fv and because like everyone else, Im forced to use fiat currency to pay my bills and use for pymt in daily transactions which we all need to do. But since fiat currencies are so risky to own, the strategy is to not own or have too much of your savings and wealth in the USD at any one time. For the average person's personal finances, I'd say having any more than 6-12 months worth of savings in USDs for bills and emergencies is very risky. For people who own businesses and need USDs for cash flow and other business expenses they may obviously need more than that.

Its kinda funny about the term hard cash. You're right that even debased clad coins still have some intrinsic value compared to fiat currencies which have no intrinsic value whatsoever. But most people today think "hard cash" (fiat currency) is real sound money and are completely clueless to the fact that hard assets like PM's are actually the real sound money. But those of us that understand the truth and are prepared for the economic times ahead and allocate our savings and investments appropiately, we will be the one's to profit from other people's economic and financial ignorance, complacency and collectivist stuborness.

 

[LooseChange]

This notion of wealth and wealth accumulation vs wealth preservation is too complicated to summarize (or even understand). It is a surprisingly abstract concept.

How do you quantify your wealth? Is it in terms of . . .
- USD?
- Oz of PM?
- Guilders?
- Tulip bulbs?
- Hours of skilled labor?

If a Dutch cabinet maker in 1633 considered his 100 guilder hoard to be his "wealth", would the effective wealth delta be an increase, decrease, or wash under the following circumstances:
(Assuming that his annual income potential was a typical 300 guilder)

1) If he bought a Semper Augustus Tulip bulb in 1637?
Semper Augustus Tulips were selling for up to 4500 guilder in 1637 (remember, the annual income for skilled craftsmen in 1637 was 300 guilder).
That transaction would be the equivalent of 15yr of skilled labor. Arguably an increase in "wealth" from some perspectives, a total loss from other perspectives.

2) If he sold to a smelter in 1980 (getting spot price in USD)?
100 guilder contained 106g ASW. Round numbers, 4oz Ag @ $50/oz would be $200.
That transaction would be the equivalent of less than 1wk of skilled labor in 1980 dollars. Arguably a decrease in "wealth" from most perspectives.

3) If he converted the face value to Euro in 2001?
That transaction would be the equivalent of 1 minute of skilled labor. Clearly, a loss of "wealth".

4) If he still to this day continues to hold the guilders?
I guess that's a wash. Until he sells them, trades them, etc there is no way to reference the impact that they have on his "wealth". He's exactly as wealthy as he was in 1633.

While we are not 17th century cabinet makers...

There can be no argument that buying Ag coins at face value is an incremental accumulation of wealth in that instant. Consider trading $1 in FRNs to the teller for 2 90% kennedy halves. In that instant in time, you've exchanged something with a normalized value of 1x for something with a relative value of approximately 15x. History suggests that your 2 kens will never fall below 1x. Sure, it might become 5x or 45x over the long term (or even the short term), but it is still an increment in wealth accumulation unless that $1 FRN invested elsewhere could have generated more buying power. Believe it or not, $1 in 1964 invested in the DJIA or S&P500 would've yielded much more buying power today than if it were held as uncirculated Ag Kens.

You can't predict the future (or the past!).

 

[SilverFace]

If you understand real basic fundamental economics and sound money you can predict and foresee what the consequences of artificial economic stimulation and inflationary market manipulation will be in the future. Peter Schiff has been accurately predicting the bubbles in the housing market and Nasdaq stock market and the current bubble in the bond market and the USD for years. He has been advocating buying gold since it was below $300 oz over 15 years ago. Check out some of the different Peter Schiff was right YouTube videos where in 2005, 2006, 2007 & 2008 he was predicting the housing market bubble on CNBC and Fox Business and everyone was laughing at him and saying he didn't know what he was talking about. They were clueless and wrong and he was right because he understands real basic fundamental economics and sound money.

But predicting the exact timing when bubbles will pop is just a guessing game because there are just too many variables involved, especially when there is so much illogical economic ignorance in the equation. But what's important is understanding what's really happening in the economy and being prepared to profit when (not if) the artificially inflated bubbles pop and markets correct.

 

[dreamboxvip]

Fiat currency is worth only what the government says its worth. The worthless fiat currency is still king though. Most americans are uneducated about gold and silver. They can't see past the "face value" of the coin. Five years ago when i first started to learn about gold and silver, checked ebay to see if people were actually buying silver coins over face value and laughed when i saw all the sold items. I didnt wanna believe it but the proof was in front of me. If you had a roll of 90% half dollars in one hand and a worthless 100 dollar fiat bill in the other, how many people on the street would take the 100 dollar bill over the halves? 99 Out of 100 probably. Fiat currency has no true value except for exchanging bills for goods and services. Gold and silver is real wealth but how many actually know or care?

 

[dreamboxvip]

All of the people talking about history being the best indicator for the future should really look at historical silver charts. Other than the last few years and the manipulation in the 1980's silver historical charts indicate that silver is quite possibly the WORST investment on the face of the planet. I think I am going to come back and bump this thread in 10 years when you are all sitting on a giant pile of silver that is worth roughly $20 an ounce.

Investing in silver with fiat could possibly be a huge mistake but trading clad coins for silver ones is one of the best investments in history lol.