Scute or turtle toe pad and other fossils

[BeachComber7]

Was wondering if this domed small circular fossil was a scute or a toe pad?

I also found these! A fragment of a horse tooth, showing top and both sides. Love the lines in these things!

The other pics, no idea what they belong to but they are cool finds any way! These photos did not up;load to the post in the order
I put them ughh!!

 

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[Age_old]

Nice stuff. Yes, I would say the round thing is a giant tortoise foot pad. Fourth photo is the top of a deer leg bone.

 

[BeachComber7]

Thanks for the help Old Age!!

 

[GatorBoy]

Nice finds.. I like the legbone piece. Also the pad. The one in photo 5 looks like it might be a section of the top of an aligator skull.

 

[BeachComber7]

Thanks GatorBoy! I will take a closer look at it.

 

[Harry Pristis]

Was wondering if this domed small circular fossil was a scute or a toe pad?

I also found these! A fragment of a horse tooth, showing top and both sides. Love the lines in these things!

The other pics, no idea what they belong to but they are cool finds any way! These photos did not up;load to the post in the order
I put them ughh!!

I am not certain what a "toe pad" is. Is it one of the tortoise osteoderms (the bone armor) in the skin of tortoise limbs? Or, is a toe pad one of the marginal or tail osteoderms from a glyptothere? In any case, I don't recognize the object in the last image. Maybe you could post other views..

The bone in the 4th image appears to be one side of a camel distal cannon bone. See if it fits the "v" bone you showed us a few days ago.

 

[BeachComber7]

Hi Harry,
I just played with both pieces to see if they fit together-I am missing a piece in between them. Was worth a try though!! The larger piece I found recently seems to be thicker, so they may even be from two different animals and, it has a rounded end, as if it was a joint. From my pic above, yes it does look like a gator skull, but I think that was due to the angle of the shot. Now that the bone is drying, it barely resembles the initial photo! I kept thinking, is this the same piece?

What everyone calls a toe pad is both those pictures above. I was told they are from the bottom of the feet/paw/claw but I know little about the anatomy of a giant tortoise. Some others that have been found, have a more prominent point, while others are smaller, like the one I found. The one on the left I saw in person yesterday at a meeting, that was very cool. Here is another pic of the one I have, a top view. The large shell in background I dug out of the same area, is there any way you know if to date shells found where these bones have been found? These are in such good condition when i pull them out, they are pear whelks from what I see.

 

[Age_old]

That is defiantly a giant tortoise leg spur/foot pad IMO. Tortoises grow leg spurs for traction while they are crawling. It is also speculated males used them for fighting. They start off long and prominent, but they wear down to look like yours; with a nearly nonexistent point. When that happens, they shed like shark teeth and grow back. That is what they are not very uncommon finds.

As for the sea shells, they are not very likely same age as the fossils; they are probably modern. Fossils on a beach are pulled from the lower fossil layer into the modern shell layer by tides. You might find a fossil shell on that beach, but even if you did, it would be hard to tell is was a fossil or not.

Oh, and Harry is right, the leg bone is camel. I got it confused with something else.


Thanks for sharing your finds! Happy hunting!

 

[Harry Pristis]

Hi Harry,
I just played with both pieces to see if they fit together-I am missing a piece in between them. Was worth a try though!! The larger piece I found recently seems to be thicker, so they may even be from two different animals and, it has a rounded end, as if it was a joint. From my pic above, yes it does look like a gator skull, but I think that was due to the angle of the shot. Now that the bone is drying, it barely resembles the initial photo! I kept thinking, is this the same piece?

What everyone calls a toe pad is both those pictures above. I was told they are from the bottom of the feet/paw/claw but I know little about the anatomy of a giant tortoise. Some others that have been found, have a more prominent point, while others are smaller, like the one I found. The one on the left I saw in person yesterday at a meeting, that was very cool. Here is another pic of the one I have, a top view. The large shell in background I dug out of the same area, is there any way you know if to date shells found where these bones have been found? These are in such good condition when i pull them out, they are pear whelks from what I see.

View attachment 676659

Tortoise "toe pads" or "foot pads" are mythical. These bones are osteoderms from the skin of the limbs (not the feet) of tortoises. Their obvious function is defensive, but may have served other purposes as well. Some are spikey, some are flat with a low peak. None is ever shed in life.

Some of these osteoderms bear an uncanny resemblance to the marginal and caudal armor of glyptodonts. Dealing with only one or two of these can be vexing. Your example seems smallish. My guess is that your bone is from a tortoise; but, here are images of glyptotheres:

​

Too bad the camel bones don't match. But, if they had, I would have recommended that you immediately head to the jai-lai fronton or to a casino!

 

[Age_old]

Tortoise "toe pads" or "foot pads" are mythical. These bones are osteoderms from the skin of the limbs (not the feet) of tortoises. Their obvious function is defensive, but may have served other purposes as well. Some are spikey, some are flat with a low peak. None is ever shed in life.

Some of these osteoderms bear an uncanny resemblance to the marginal and caudal armor of glyptodonts. Dealing with only one or two of these can be vexing. Your example seems smallish. My guess is that your bone is from a tortoise; but, here are images of glyptotheres:
<img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=676758"/><img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=676752"/>

Too bad the camel bones don't match. But, if they had, I would have recommended that you immediately head to the jai-lai fronton or to a casino!

I see your point Harry, but I disagree. I may be wrong about them being shed, but I have seen glyptodont tail material, and it is distinctly different than tortoise leg spurs. Trust me, tortoises leg spurs/foot pads are real, and I think beachcomber has found one. Just my 2 cent.

 

[Harry Pristis]

I see your point Harry, but I disagree. I may be wrong about them being shed, but I have seen glyptodont tail material, and it is distinctly different than tortoise leg spurs. Trust me, tortoises leg spurs/foot pads are real, and I think beachcomber has found one. Just my 2 cent.

Ordinarily, I would let this oblique response pass, but Google has picked up this thread, so let's get it straight. These osteoderms are not properly called "foot pads" because they don't occur in the foot of a tortoise. Frank Kocsis, in his 1997 edition of his fossil guide, mistakenly calls similar bones "foot pads." Frank is an amateur who made a number of errors in his first edition. I can find no other source in print for this error.

Why would we have to trust you when you can show us your images, your evidence that glyptodont osteoderms and tortoise osteoderms are distinctly different? C'mon, show us.

 

[Age_old]

Ordinarily, I would let this oblique response pass, but Google has picked up this thread, so let's get it straight. These osteoderms are not properly called "foot pads" because they don't occur in the foot of a tortoise. Frank Kocsis, in his 1997 edition of his fossil guide, mistakenly calls similar bones "foot pads." Frank is an amateur who made a number of errors in his first edition. I can find no other source in print for this error.

Why would we have to trust you when you can show us your images, your evidence that glyptodont osteoderms and tortoise osteoderms are distinctly different? C'mon, show us.

First off Harry, I just want to say I am by no means trying to start an argument or offend anyone. I just had a different opinion than you, and I thought I would share it. You seem very nice and quite knowledgable; I am not trying to make anyone upset.

Second, most of my personal Florida fossil hunting books refer them to as tortoise foot pad or leg spurs. These books are well known, and although written by amateurs, they are acknowledged as accurate by professionals. These books include: Florida's Fossils by Robin Brown, Fossil Diving by Robert Sinibaldi, and Fossiling in Florida by Mark Renz. Tortoise foot pads/leg spurs are well known, and until now, I have never heard of them being disputed.

Third, there is an obvious difference if you look closely. Glyptodont material is much thicker and has a porous exterior. Tortoise leg spurs/foot pads are smaller and smoother. Tortoise material also has a round protrusion at the base; this was the part under the animal's hide. You can see this in Beachcomber's picture. The difference is clear.

Plus look at this leg spur of mine. I for one have never seen ANYTHING like this on a glyptodont.

 

[GatorBoy]

Well done.

 

[Age_old]

Thanks, Gator!

 

[Harry Pristis]

First off Harry, I just want to say I am by no means trying to start an argument or offend anyone. I just had a different opinion than you, and I thought I would share it. You seem very nice and quite knowledgable; I am not trying to make anyone upset.

Second, most of my personal Florida fossil hunting books refer them to as tortoise foot pad or leg spurs. These books are well known, and although written by amateurs, they are acknowledged as accurate by professionals. These books include: Florida's Fossils by Robin Brown, Fossil Diving by Robert Sinibaldi, and Fossiling in Florida by Mark Renz. Tortoise foot pads/leg spurs are well known, and until now, I have never heard of them being disputed.

Third, there is an obvious difference if you look closely. Glyptodont material is much thicker and has a porous exterior. Tortoise leg spurs/foot pads are smaller and smoother. Tortoise material also has a round protrusion at the base; this was the part under the animal's hide. You can see this in Beachcomber's picture. The difference is clear.

Plus look at this leg spur of mine. I for one have never seen ANYTHING like this on a glyptodont.

Don't fret, 'age old', argument is how we sharpen our critical thinking skills (unless the subject is religion or politics).

Let's restate the disagreement: I say "foot pad" is a misnomer, propogated by amateurs, for osteoderms which occur in the skin (not the foot) of tortoise limbs. I say that some of these osteoderms may be confused with osteoderms of glyptodonts.

You say that the term "foot pad" is generally used, and you provide three print sources. Unhappily, the three sources you provide are written by amateurs with errors you might expect from amateurs.

The best-written source you offer (Brown, FLORIDA'S FOSSILS, 1988 edition) provides only a line-drawing of one tortoise osteoderm which is labeled "leg spur of giant land tortoise."

I have a copy of Mark Renz's book here somewhere, but I didn't find it very informative so it has evaporated - disappeared - from lack of use. (I edited some chapters of one of Mark's later books, so I know his standards.)

You are equivocating by using the phrase "foot pad/leg spur" as if these were two equivalent terms. They're not. But, when it comes to illustrating your own tortoise osteoderm, you label it a "this leg spur of mine." Did you mean to say "this foot pad/leg spur of mine"?

What you say about the difference between tortoise and glyptodont osteoderms is true, as far as it goes. It is true about unworn specimens from adult animals. But, perfect adult specimens are not the common find, as with the osteoderm from the beach in this thread. Osteoderms come in all sizes and conditions. Are you aware that there is a dwarf species of glyptodont, Glyptotherium arizonae, found in Florida?

Finally, let me quote Richard Hulbert from pp. 177 of THE FOSSIL VERTEBRATES OF FLORIDA:

"Loose osteoderms are present in the skin of the limbs of some cingulates [xenarthrans]. These resemble analogous elements from the limbs of the tortoise Hesperotestudo."
​

 

[BeachComber7]

Okay, after reading all these posts on my little squished hershey kiss, I see that the terms foot/toe pad and osteoderm are used interchangeably but incorrectly. I did a little research on line in case you are wondering .

It appears what I have is an osteoderm, which means bones in the skin or piece of bone armor that sit in the skin itself. Thank you for the info you guys!

 

[GatorBoy]

Haha.. Hi beachcomber..see why I steer clear of this forum.

 

[Harry Pristis]

To illustrate Hulbert's assertion (above), here are some osteoderms from the limbs of tortoises and xenarthrans, probably glyptodonts. I could only guess at which osteoderm is from which animal, and I can examine these in hand.

​

 

[BeachComber7]

Eh I don't mind Gator. A very smart man explained the process . This gave me labels to look up that i otherwise would not have been able to do. With a name/label, researching was easier!

 

[BeachComber7]

Very nice picture Harry!