Sims Ely

[cactusjumper]

The point is Joe, that the Atocha incident was well-documented with facts by professional documentarians since 1622, when she went down. Fisher used the information he could get. The LDM legend has no such pedigree and in my book is only valuable for its accompanying Arizona history possibilities, not for its potential as an actual retrievable target. Of course, as always, I could be wrong.

Springfield,

One last try here. I'm not talking about specific treasures and legends, but methodology. Bottom line is, it normally takes reading old accounts.....etc., to find the truth. In that research, you have to absorb a great deal of BS and outright lies in the process.

I also could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[pippinwhitepaws]

now I realize why academics are required to share research...and document everything...

this is my frustration...I keep nothing to myself...it is against the ethics I learned at the university...so as I shoot myself in the foot.

while many researchers do play things close to the vest...there comes a time when information must be presented to ones peers...
this prevents dishonesty and confusion of the facts....which, it seems, the lost Dutchman mine creates.
now I have a migraine...

 

[Springfield]

OK, let's simplify the discussion. It's my opinion that if there is such a thing as a 'lost mine' or a 'hidden treasure', a person who possesses valid information about it will not, under any circumstances, divulge information to anyone that would jeopardize his chance of recovering it for himself. Period. This is universal human nature fueled by greed - a no-brainer motive to lie, mislead, disinform or confuse the issue. The person simply cannot and will not act in any other manner - humans are hard-wired this way.

I'll use myself as an example. I was given eyewitness, verified testimony about such a thing in 1980 by the original protagonist. Even though those who know me would all describe me as open, honest and generally forthcoming and true to his word (usually to a fault), I consciously led a double life for twenty years chasing this thing, keeping it a complete secret to the world at large, including most of my family. When I needed help or assistance from others, I revealed only what needed to be known to proceed. When friends would ask me about my strange activities, I lied through my teeth. When better-informed friends asked me where I was searching and for what, I lied through my teeth, with a sincere delivery. Why? Because I didn't want to divulge too much and jeopardize my prize. I wasn't particularly paranoid or distrustful - just very, very careful because I knew I had the best info one could hope for. [If you're interested in this memoir, pm me.]

We're not talking here about guarded historical gems, academic research, or codes of conduct or ethics. We're talking about buried treasure (money) - it's a different motivator. You can claim you know how you'd handle it, but you don't know what you'd do when the real deal is on the table. If you believe you'd share this type of proprietary info, then you don't know yourself. We're all the same.

If you think you can research, read about, interview, deduct or otherwise piece together the truth about a 'lost mine' or 'buried treasure' - even from those 'in the know', or perhaps even your best friends - needed to track down one of these things (if it's real - most aren't), you need to understand this basic human instinct. Why in the world would you think that you, an outsider to the original events, would ever be privy to any usable information?

Exceptions to the rule: 1) first hand, mouth-to-ear oral testimony; 2) written first-hand accounts, which are usually closely held family secrets.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks for bring it to my attention I am a greedieselfserving punk..thanks.

 

[Springfield]

thanks for bring it to my attention I am a greedieselfserving punk..thanks.

I'm sure you're not - you seem quite OK. You haven't had to decide.

But if you suddenly came into possession of Waltz's (or whatever his name was) secret journal complete with maps, I'll wager you would disappear from the internet and become more secretive than you are now. And then perhaps you'd try to figure out how to exploit your unexpected good fortune. Hypothetically, of course - the LDM's reality hasn't lived up to it's hype.

 

[roadrunner]

@ secretcanyon.
I think in another post you said you found a piece of quartz that looks like the ldm ore.
Have you had it tested?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

@ secretcanyon.
I think in another post you said you found a piece of quartz that looks like the ldm ore.
Have you had it tested?

above turkey creek...south and to the west I think...mostly along the western edge of the bradshaws, are areas of high quartz...some even has gold...I was up high on the mountain...crawling on an old tailing pile...found the rock with a tiny see through scorpion attached.{whole 'nother story}
I sold the piece I found as a specimen to a collector in north phoenix...

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks.
I was talking to Rick Rose, of the House or mansion on the rock.
Any relation to the Rose you knew?
How about PMing me maybe a location or 2 of any place you think might be worthwhile checking out around Superior, Queen Valley, or Picket Post.
Does the pic in my profile remind you of anything?

Worst Thing ever happening to me with a scorpion(s) is this.
Standing in my front yard by the street.
2m in the afternoon.
Standing by my water spicket, by the curb, in front of my house.
Felt a sting on my right leg,about 1 hand length below my pocket, on the inside of my leg,thigh.
I grabbed it with my fingers and crushed it, I knew what it was by the sting because of previous stings.

BAM,another sting right next to the first one. Now I have my left hand,fingers holding,squeezing another one.
So both hands holding a dead or alive scorpion.Could not tell if they where dead or not because I was holding them.
So now I am yelling at my wife in the house to come out to the front yard to pull my pants down,while I am holding the scorpions at bay.

So,I am in my front yard, wife pulling my pants down,on her knees,at 2 pm.
What a sight it must have been if anyone was looking.
Got my pants,shook them out,then went into house for ice,with my thigh tingling, and going knumb.
They crawled up my pants,not on my skin,so I didn't feel them.

Morale: be careful where you stand around water in Az.

Anyway,that's my story and I am sticking to it.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

same old ricky rose I imagine...

ask him if it is true he backed over his own leg to avoid the draft...
and does he know earl Bowden is planted in an unmarked grave in superior?

 

[roadrunner]

I will ask him those 2 questions when i see him again.
Since he sold the Rock mansion to to the Arboretum,and built his family,(himself and both daughters) 3 million dollar homes across the highway from the Rock House, on his other property. I have not seen him as much.
He stays out there a lot.Only comes into town to check on his house property's he owns.And the couple commercial buildings.
Who is Earl?
Name does not sound familiar. In Superior,or at the silver king with Mattie.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

in superior. has a brother named david, holds down the bar in lower superior, when he is not leaning on a shovel for the town...

 

[roadrunner]

No more bars left open.
The only bar is the one downtown across from the post office. The Cantina.
Of course Los Hermonas is open.
Thanks

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

down main street...just up from the church? apartment downstairs? overlooks the creek...

anyway...how is rent over there now...i am so tired of verde valley...

ops library closes in five minutes...i am outta here.

 

[roadrunner]

Barbs old bar?
Forgot what the name was. (sportsman maybe).She sold it,a new person named it the copper penny, Closed down 2 years ago.
The low lifes kept breaking the windows after the people put picture windows in it, and had a little restaurant.
Rent is about $450 month for a 2 bedroom.
Had a lady move here from Sedona.
She owns 20 houses.Fixed them all up.
Everything new.
3 bedroom goes for about $550.
These are houses for rent.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

In Sims Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine, he talks of interviews with Julia Thomas, Rhinehart Petrasch and others. T Glover has said now that Sims Ely did not write the Lost Dutchman book. The case may very well be, Ely never knew or talked with Julia and Rhiney and got his information about them 2nd or 3rd hand. Ely got Julia's name wrong and believed Rhiney was her adopted son although Rhiney was only abot 8 years younger than Julia. Other glaring discrepancies are found in his interviews with them.

Julia was reported to be at least 1/4 black, possibly more. In 1900-1920 Phoenix the black population of Phoenix was segregated and forcibly herded into and kept in a 4 block area between Madison and Jefferson and fifth and sixth streets, known as the 3rd ward or Block 41. This was also the area where city leaders kept the prostitution element in check. Sims Ely was one of the cities most outspoken critics of the black community. A reporter for the Arizona Republican, he became editor in 1909 and used that position to rail against the black community. In one editorial he railed against black business competition in Phoenix, especially John Lewis's hotel and barber shop at 7th street and Jefferson, calling Lewis and the black community a moral sink, a vehicle for debauchary, a lawless nigg_r element and a disgrace to the city.

Ely was on the Phoenix school board and in September 1910 fought violently to stop black children from attending a white school only a block away from where they lived. A black father, Samuel Bayless filed a lawsuit against the school board in the case known as, Bayless vs. Ely, Tolleson, Dameron et. al.

The case was overseen by Judge Edward Kent a member of the Phoenix Ku Klux Klan. The City attorney was George Bullard also a member. In that case racial discrimination was obvious as both judge and city attorney refered to Bayless and his children repeatedly as nigg_er's. Of course Ely and the school board prevailed. The Ku Klux Klan in Phoenix was present from it earliest days however did not become openly public until the years 1921 - 1930 when the Klan became a political party.

This was not the only racial attack Ely made as there were many. Even the Chinese community was attacked. In another editorial Ely attacked Ong Dick, the leader of the Chinese community stating the community was a yellow peril amid decent white citizens and railed against Chinese competition with white business in Phoenix. Ely fought successfully to keep the Chinese community confined to the 1st - 3rd street and Jefferson to Madison area.

Given Ely's sentiments and feeling for in his eyes, racially inferior persons, it is doubtful he ever had any direct contact with Julia.

Not until Wm. Crump, a black community leader and head of a large fruit and produce business in Phoenix, came along did the climate change for black business persons and people in Phoenix. Sims Ely eventually moved away from Phoenix and the Klan prospered for many years. It was Wm. Crump who paid for and had Julia buried in the Beth Israel cemetery on 19th avenue south of Henshaw (Buckeye road ) in Phoenix. Her grave there is unmarked although there was at one time a gravestone. Possibly it is still there buried beneath the ground or lost amid the landscaping. Many of the early burials in that cemetery ( 1900 - 1918 ) had no gravestones or they are missing today. It was from the Wm. Crump photo collection that the photo of Julia Thomas ( Julia Schafer Israel) originated as well as photos of many of Phoenix early black business people, clergymen and black civic leaders.

Did Sims Ely interview Julia ? I don't know, no one can say for certain. Given the glaring discrepancies and racial feeling Ely had for minorities, it would seem not. It is a something we may never know for certain. My opinion is no he did not, but that is just my opinion based on what I have been able to learn and interpret from it.

Matthew Roberts

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

View attachment 827787

In Sims Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine, he talks of interviews with Julia Thomas, Rhinehart Petrasch and others. T Glover has said now that Sims Ely did not write the Lost Dutchman book. The case may very well be, Ely never knew or talked with Julia and Rhiney and got his information about them 2nd or 3rd hand. Ely got Julia's name wrong and believed Rhiney was her adopted son although Rhiney was only abot 8 years younger than Julia. Other glaring discrepancies are found in his interviews with them.

Julia was reported to be at least 1/4 black, possibly more. In 1900-1920 Phoenix the black population of Phoenix was segregated and forcibly herded into and kept in a 4 block area between Madison and Jefferson and fifth and sixth streets, known as the 3rd ward or Block 41. This was also the area where city leaders kept the prostitution element in check. Sims Ely was one of the cities most outspoken critics of the black community. A reporter for the Arizona Republican, he became editor in 1909 and used that position to rail against the black community. In one editorial he railed against black business competition in Phoenix, especially John Lewis's hotel and barber shop at 7th street and Jefferson, calling Lewis and the black community a moral sink, a vehicle for debauchary, a lawless nigg_r element and a disgrace to the city.

Ely was on the Phoenix school board and in September 1910 fought violently to stop black children from attending a white school only a block away from where they lived. A black father, Samuel Bayless filed a lawsuit against the school board in the case known as, Bayless vs. Ely, Tolleson, Dameron et. al.

The case was overseen by Judge Edward Kent a member of the Phoenix Ku Klux Klan. The City attorney was George Bullard also a member. In that case racial discrimination was obvious as both judge and city attorney refered to Bayless and his children repeatedly as nigg_er's. Of course Ely and the school board prevailed. The Ku Klux Klan in Phoenix was present from it earliest days however did not become openly public until the years 1921 - 1930 when the Klan became a political party.

This was not the only racial attack Ely made as there were many. Even the Chinese community was attacked. In another editorial Ely attacked Ong Dick, the leader of the Chinese community stating the community was a yellow peril amid decent white citizens and railed against Chinese competition with white business in Phoenix. Ely fought successfully to keep the Chinese community confined to the 1st - 3rd street and Jefferson to Madison area.

Given Ely's sentiments and feeling for in his eyes, racially inferior persons, it is doubtful he ever had any direct contact with Julia.

Not until Wm. Crump, a black community leader and head of a large fruit and produce business in Phoenix, came along did the climate change for black business persons and people in Phoenix. Sims Ely eventually moved away from Phoenix and the Klan prospered for many years. It was Wm. Crump who paid for and had Julia buried in the Beth Israel cemetery on 19th avenue south of Henshaw (Buckeye road ) in Phoenix. Her grave there is unmarked although there was at one time a gravestone. Possibly it is still there buried beneath the ground or lost amid the landscaping. Many of the early burials in that cemetery ( 1900 - 1918 ) had no gravestones or they are missing today. It was from the Wm. Crump photo collection that the photo of Julia Thomas ( Julia Schafer Israel) originated as well as photos of many of Phoenix early black business people, clergymen and black civic leaders.

Did Sims Ely interview Julia ? I don't know, no one can say for certain. Given the glaring discrepancies and racial feeling Ely had for minorities, it would seem not. It is a something we may never know for certain. My opinion is no he did not, but that is just my opinion based on what I have been able to learn and interpret from it.

Matthew Roberts[/QUOT

This just confirms my theory... Thanks for sharing this info...

Travis

 

[Springfield]

In Sims Ely's book, The Lost Dutchman Mine, he talks of interviews with Julia Thomas, Rhinehart Petrasch and others. T Glover has said now that Sims Ely did not write the Lost Dutchman book. The case may very well be, Ely never knew or talked with Julia and Rhiney and got his information about them 2nd or 3rd hand....

A structure's strength begins with its foundation. The 'house of the LDM' is pretty fancy digs, but it's built on sand.

 

[FEMF]

A structure's strength begins with its foundation. The 'house of the LDM' is pretty fancy digs, but it's built on sand.

For only those with eye's can see, none others will perceive!

FEMF

 

[FEMF]

Hello Springfield
We have been kicking around the idea of a "WALTZ JOURNAL" for years, and you have followed this line of reasoning to include maps, yet your not even sure of his name? Ha, HA. Ha.
FEMF

 

[Springfield]

Hello Springfield
We have been kicking around the idea of a "WALTZ JOURNAL" for years, and you have followed this line of reasoning to include maps, yet your not even sure of his name? Ha, HA. Ha.
FEMF

You must have me confused with someone else. If you check any/all my posts re LDM, you'll see that I am a non-believer.