Some old silver today

[tamrock]

I just went to my local ARC after some all day yard work. In the show case I see these 2 new additions. Sure looked like good stuff to me. Ran down an employee and said could you be so kind to unlock the show case and they did. I could see the little pitcher had a brit hallmark, close to the top rim, but it was very worn down. Getting home I see it's N*S & Co. With a paw raised Lion and a Date mark I've not seen before. It's a Crown with a letter S below in a oval shape border. I did I.D. the maker as Nathaniel Smith & Co of Sheffield. The only date mark on a listing I see with the crown and S would put this at being made in the year 1838. The gravy boat looks to have a very worn possibly French mark, so it'll be more difficult to date, but it does look rather old. My local PM buyer now has one of those very expensive spetro guns and can read with utmost accuracy all the alloy % with in a few microns of the surface. It's pretty slick and they now can buy at exactly what alloys you bring them. This gravy boat I'm speculating will be at least 80% alloy silver. Both pieces are in pretty rough shape. The pitcher is 112 grams and the GB is 231 grams. All total I gave just under $31.00.

 

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[Red-Coat]

Good scores Tam.

The ‘pitcher’ is what we call a milk jug, sometimes improperly referred to as a ‘creamer’, since it was for the milk to go in your cup of tea. Yes. It’s from Nathaniel Smith & Co but it’s not from 1838 since they weren’t still in business then. It’s not clear when they ceased trading but most sources say c.1808

The crowned letter is a legitimate part of the Sheffield sterling hallmark set but when you read our hallmarks everything matters. Cartouche shapes, font styles, placement of symbols etc. The date is 1807 and you can see the difference from an 1838 mark below (and note also the difference between the Kings' heads for duty marking):



I can’t read the other mark, but with a handle at each end and no ‘spout’ to aid pouring and act as an anti-drip feature, it won’t be a gravy boat. I would think it’s an open sugar bowl.

 

[tamrock]

Thank you Red-Coat. 1807 then. Boy that be a fair amount of sugar if this vessel was filled with it. I'll post the findings of when I have it tested for its particular alloy content. If it's anything other than sterling that might give me an idea as to where it's possible from. Yeah it's a bit sad there are no clear identifying marks as that does make a piece of silver a bit more interesting.

 

[Red-Coat]

...Boy that be a fair amount of sugar if this vessel was filled with it...

Not necessarily. Granulated sugar as we know it wasn't commonly used in households until the late 19th Century. In 1807 you'd have been buying your sugar as a solid lump in conical 'loaf' form, cutting it up into manageable pieces using implements called 'sugar nips' and heaping it into a bowl to be served with a pair of tongs rather than a spoon. Those irregular chunks also took up much more space (weight for weight) in a sugar bowl than the later compact granular form, so later sugar bowls are smaller.

 

[Elvis]

Sweet score!!

 

[JimDon]

Very nice pieces. And great age to them also

 

[Steve in PA]

My local PM buyer now has one of those very expensive spetro guns and can read with utmost accuracy all the alloy % with in a few microns of the surface. It's pretty slick and they now can buy at exactly what alloys you bring them. This gravy boat I'm speculating will be at least 80% alloy silver.

So you plan to sell these pieces for melt value? Being over 200 years old I would think they may be more valuable as is?

 

[Clad2Silver]

Beautiful finds........

 

[Mackaydon]

Sugar bowl; like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/164797518780
Don.....

 

[tamrock]

My local PM buyer now has one of those very expensive spetro guns and can read with utmost accuracy all the alloy % with in a few microns of the surface. It's pretty slick and they now can buy at exactly what alloys you bring them. This gravy boat I'm speculating will be at least 80% alloy silver.

So you plan to sell these pieces for melt value? Being over 200 years old I would think they may be more valuable as is?

You would think that, but it seems anymore sterling anything old, new just isn't being bought on eBay by collectors these days. It seems more is being picked up by those who just wanna spend no more than what the market is on the silver content. Some pieces can go higher than melt, such as Tiffany, Jensen and old silver in excellent condition. The majority I'm seeing is selling at around scrap value. These I just don't believe would sell much more than scrap because of their condition. They're not weighted, so I'll just store them away for now and keep looking for more. I'm not finding much gold for a bargain lately, but the silver keeps showing up from time to time.

 

[tamrock]

The old sugar bowl is spot on 92.5% Sterling silver alloy. I sure wish it was date marked, so I could say how old it is. The owner of this coin shop got some help and they don't negotiate on any buys of silver scrap like he did. The young gal said she could only pay $140. on this 231 grams of good clean sterling scrap. I declined her offer and will just keep it for now.

 

[Red-Coat]

Hi Tam.

Everything about the sugar bowl screams ‘Georgian’. The fleabay item that Don linked to (hilariously described by the seller as ‘Art Deco’) is what is known as ‘Georgian Revival’ and from the 1930s.

Yours, I’m sure, is an original Georgian piece. More specifically within the Georgian period (generally taken to be 1714-1830) I would say it’s George III Regency somewhere between about 1800-1820. Broadly contemporary with the milk jug.

The closest pattern match I could find is this one. It’s English sterling silver (Chester), also ‘Georgian Revival’ and from 1931, but copied from a much earlier style. With a bit of trawling you may find the original styles that inspired these revival pieces but they’re generally scarce items.



The fact that yours was apparently made to the sterling standard doesn’t necessarily mean that your bowl is English. I would think it’s more likely from continental Europe (and possibly French), particularly if that ‘231g’ engraved mark is original to the piece. British silversmiths didn’t work with metric units in those times.

 

[tamrock]

Thank you Red-Coat. They are definitely old and possibly have been together for a long time. The mono on the jug looks like J to L to me and the sugar bowl has a mono of just L I believe. I also believe these pieces may have been engraved with embellishment earlier on and then more possibly by a different hand later in their lives as some of the embellishments seem a bit different and rather worn down further then others that seem less worn down with sharper in details. That's just a thought I have as I look them over closely. It be nice to see them restored, but that's not an expense I'll be putting towards them. You need to pay someone with the experience and has the right tools on hand to do the job. Sure wish I'd a picked up a trade such as that. I did however work in an autobody shop in the mid 70s where it was much more hands on repairs of the original body parts than it is today. We took cars to the frame shops to be straightened and bunged up chrome bumpers where exchanged at a bumper shop for ones straightened out and re-chromed. That was a great summer job I had back so long ago now. Car guys young and old were always hanging around.