Someone is Overfiling My Claim Location

[winners58]

I have someone filing over my claim, I want to mine, and they just want to sell it.
I wanted to see if anyone has been through something like this or if I have a case?

I located my claim on Nov 9th walked every inch no markers or location notices, posted my location notice, did some sampling, dug holes and panned, found some flakes. Filed with the county Nov 12th the claim was still showing as active in LR2000 till Dec 2nd I filed because I had information that the previous owner would not be filing. Over a month goes by and I happen to look at the county recorders search page and see someone has filed in the same TRS on Dec 16th I had the clerk email a copy of their filing and found out they were filing over me and had dated the location date as Oct 24th
I did a search in LR2000 for the last name for Cal & Ore open and closed (4 pages come up) I recognize a couple of the active ones as ones I had seen for sale on craigslist and their ad has their web page with claims for sale found their phone and email.
Sent a email before I got the copy of their claim recording from the county clerk, there’s only 40 acres in that section the rest is roseburg lumber so I was concerned.

“Please don’t file over my claim
I filed a mining claim location in early November on inside information from the previous owner In Douglas county,
BLM was still showing it as active till Dec 2nd
The section that its in is the only 20 acres that’s open that is on the stream.
I just want to give a heads up and not get over filed on, I posted my location notice
on the claim and filed with the county recorder it’s the XXS XW sec.2 S1/2 of SE1/4 of NW1/4
The N1/2 is open it has a rightaway road according to the master plat.
Thanks Dennis XXXX”

After I got their filing I called on the phone I was upset said I didn’t like someone filing over me and back dating their location date. (Probably a bad idea to call when mad).

After about 3 days I got this reply;

“Hello Dennis:
I just stopped in Kxxx's shop today and read and heard your messages. This is in reference to your 3 e-mails I just read and a voice message I just heard. You e-mailed two private e-mail accounts of mine. I find this very odd that I can record a document at 2:58 pm in the afternoon and you already know all my private personal e-mail information and e-mail me at two e-mail address's by 8 am the very next morning and know Kens shop phone number. How would you know all this about me that fast if something fishy isn't going on? Ken left me a memo saying he asked you how you got all that information and your exact words were, "I know a lot about a lot and I'm a computer whiz." I feel as though we were entitled to a better answer than that and I believe the court will also agree with me on that if that's where this all ends up. It's almost as if you knew I had a claim up there and you were waiting for me to record it.

The claim in question was actually closed by BLM September 1st 2014, but they did give people until the 2nd to get papers in because of the Labor day holiday. You do not have to wait for BLM to update their web page. There are claims that have been closed for 10 years that they still show active. The camp n dig claim was located and marked legally and recorded with the county and fees sent to BLM. The BLM fees were sent off last week by me.

After reading your e-mails and driving back up to the claim, once again I see no evidence of you locating or being there. This is no big deal to Kxx, and he wasn't in the mood to talk with you at the time after listening to the BS as he was trying to get out the door to go out on a dig. He actually prospects and mines pretty much everyday. This is a big deal to me. After listening to your false, rude allegations about us and threatening of a law suit like you said on voice mail, I guess after you pay your fees to BLM you will have to file a law suit like you said and I will then have my lawyer get in touch with yours and let the court decide. This all could have been avoided if you didn't do your false and rude allegations on voice mail.
I don't know why you are doing this as there are other claims in the area that are open to location that you could have filed on.
I'm hoping to see Ken again next week sometime and sit and talk with him.
Best regards,
Jxxxx”

Then I sent a reply;

Hello, thanks for the reply
I located the claim on Nov 9th walked every inch no markers or location notice, put my location notice on the tree at the only turnout below the old claim sign have to look over the edge of the road to see it. I filed with the county Nov 12th after that I have 90 days to file with BLM, then over a month goes by and I happen to look at the county recorder search page and and see someone had filed in the same TRS, did a search on LR2000 for open & closed claims Cal & Ore for Sxname
I remembered some of the claim names as ones I had seen on Craig's list and found the website link to mixxxxxxxxmsdirect.com, thats when I sent the first email
through the contact page on the website didn't know if it went through so used the lxxxxxotau999 that was right there on the page to resend the same message.
after that I contacted the county recorder and had them e-mail a copy of your filing, thats when I found out that you were filing over My claim, I was understandably upset and called the phone number on the website left a message I got a call back but was still a little upset, I said I didn't like the idea of someone filing and back dating over me.

Yes its technically closed after sept.1st if the fees haven't been paid or small miners is filed but takes some time to show up on LR2000 even if it's been paid.
they finally posted that the fees hadn't been paid and the claim was closed on Dec. 2nd, You filed your location on Dec.16th and dated the location date as Oct.24th
why would you wait almost 2 months to file with the county? some people back date to keep from getting filed over on and you have inadvertently filed over my claim.
you cant locate a claim that may or may not get closed you don't really offer a reason why you would locate a claim that still shows as active, I have very specific information in writing of the previous owner as why it was let go. have you ever had someone file over your claim? this is from my point of view I'm trying to be strait up and honest but I wont back down as a matter of principle.
Sincerly, Dennis Xxxxxx

So now we have two claims overlapping, I don’t know what the courts go by you can write anything as the location date and have found several of their past claim locations that are filed with the location date about 55 days before recording with the county,
I’ve also found a few that they filed a small miners but had more than 10 claims then just didn’t pay the maintenance fee like requested, One case I found went all the way to the IBLA as it was sold after filing the small miners they knew they had more than 10 claims
I just dont know what the courts look at, does location date have more weight than being the first to make it to the court house, I just want be honest, do things in good faith, I gave them my story and I’m not really getting a legitimate back story from them. Haven't heard anything else in 2weeks i sent I message just said "we should talk" so I dont know what to think. both claims now show up as active in LR2000.

 

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[Bejay]

Start here: Act to Protect the Rights of Miners 1871........Sec 7
Obtain a copy of the record: Land Office of recordings.

Obtain Copies of BLM relevant filings.....and status.

In todays world it is necessary to have a witness when your location is made. Pictures of the location posting are a must....with date. It is possible that others come onto the location of your location and pre date your date with their location doc. A miner has to remember that the claim process starts at the time of location and miners have a designated amount of time to record said location and file a copy with the BLM; who keeps a file of the claim/status. All recording dates and BLM filing dates do not determine the Location date. The location is the "boots on the ground" if you will. There is a "grey area timing" issue that presents itself because of the time lines for recording and BLM filing.

The above mentioned Act gives some detail as to how to proceed.

A number of valid issues can be investigated. 1st...in order to locate one MUST make discovery! 2nd.....It is my understanding that to locate a claim simply by doing paper work (no boots on the ground) for the intent of immediate sale does not meet the intent of the Law(s)

I hope this gives you some direction.

Bejay

 

[NeoTokyo]

Wow what a mess, I never cared for the way some buy up claims simply to resell.
I am sure that you will be able to win this one unless they try to lie more which in any case they will be caught.

 

[Hoser John]

THIS IS THE EXACT REASON I SAY BACK FILE--and caught MUCH bs here for suggesting it. You file-they backfile and your up a creek with no paddle and a hole in the boat. Welcome to the crowd as new computer programs scan ALL NEW BLM FILES and backfiling done automatically dirty rotten claimjumping scum sucking filthy illegal dogs. New year same ol'stinkn' game-it begins John

 

[SchoolOfHardRocks]

I love your rants Hoser

 

[goldenIrishman]

yeah... It sure sounds like a mess and that these guys are not exactly playing by the rules. I'm not sure about Oregon laws but here in Arizona they require a monument of discovery be put up that is in plain sight and conforms to very specific requirements for height, what it has to contain for paperwork etc. Needless to say, to get the monument put in place it will require boots on the ground. You had what basically amounts to insider information that the claim was not going to be renewed by the previous owner, but can you be sure that he didn't give that same info to anyone else? (just asking as I look at all the possibilities)

I also noticed in their reply to your e-mail that they went on the offensive right off the bat. Asking how you found them "so quickly" etc. Considering that they seem to be plastered all over the net it wouldn't be that hard. They accuse you of trying to do "something fishy" and mentioned court right away. Everything they said in their reply seemed like pure bluster to me in an effort to scare you off. I doubt that they really want it to go to court because that would shine a light on their own activities.

As to taking them to court, if you can afford to do so I would! Considering that there is actually so little cash involved so far, it may be able to be handled in small claims which most states do not allow you to bring a lawyer with you to the hearing. At this point it looks like a "I said, they said" type of case. Study up on the laws and be sure you bring copies of them with you to show the judge. Go out and get pictures of the area that shows your monument and the lack of theirs. Like Bejay said, they don't seem to be following the spirit of the law by not getting boots on the gorund and posting a monument n the claim site. Just be sure you have all your ducks in a row before you head to court.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Start here: Act to Protect the Rights of Miners 1871........Sec 7

Bejay

There is no such Act Bejay. That was a Senate Bill that was never passed. A lot of what was proposed in that Bill was included in the 1872 Act to Promote the Development of the Mining Resources of The United States (1872 Mining Act) but the Act to Protect the Rights of Miners 1871 you point to was never passed into law.

Senate bills are not laws.

Hope that saves someone a wild goose chase.

Heavy Pans

 

[Clay Diggins]

THIS IS THE EXACT REASON I SAY BACK FILE--and caught MUCH bs here for suggesting it. You file-they backfile and your up a creek with no paddle and a hole in the boat. Welcome to the crowd as new computer programs scan ALL NEW BLM FILES and backfiling done automatically dirty rotten claimjumping scum sucking filthy illegal dogs. New year same ol'stinkn' game-it begins John

I would look for statements like Hoser's. If you can find where the overfilers made statements like this or a witness to them saying this you have a slam dunk case against them. Courts hate fraud and anyone that publicly states that they backfile will lose any case based on filing date.

When you file claims in the future consider Bejay's advice:

In todays world it is necessary to have a witness when your location is made. Pictures of the location posting are a must....with date.

That's your only real protection.

Heavy Pans

 

[Goldwasher]

If you file at the county First have your witness and photo evidence....I would thank any over filing....scam.....software or whatever is legally mute!!!!! reading the story makes it sound like the other guy tried to backfile and it didn't work out all that well?Or they really did wait 55 days...which is technically legal (Barry?).....Though if you can prove they never did make a physical location monument I guess the Law is on your side.When I filed My location I had been prospecting in the canyon for months. I wasn't going to claim yet then someone filed in the 1/4 next to where we located. I did so because it was showing good color and I didn't want to lose out on the area.I waited two weeks before filing they asked me about it I told them I was busy they said oh ok. Our location is plain as day easy to spot smack in the middle of the claim.I still worry that someone will come down see that its older paperwork and think its inactive. Yet, if you research you will see its all squared away. The neighboring claim says his location is a pile of rocks I have looked and can not find it. He is local but his listed mailing address is at one of those ups stores with mailboxes. We have had vandalism issues someone has taken some small hand tools we had stashed. And shot some drinking water we had stashed full of holes. When I was just prospecting the area someone smashed a large classifier I built with big rocks and left it for me to find. They also took a no. 2 shovel I had laying under some dead branches. So they obviously started looking for things once they found other gear. It pays to know your neighbors. Its a shame that prospectors are disrespecting their peers like this. Next claim I/we locate will be done exactly how Barry said to do in another post. Picture by an unassociated party and a visit to the notary. Locate on a weekday morning and drive to the county right away. Barry, if I locate, file at the county and hold off on the blm filing that's not really "Backfiling " is it. If someone overfiles me and I have all the paperwork and filing done correctly I will just keep working if they want to take me to court so be it!

 

[mcordell]

Consider buying a claim from a reputable broker next time. I bought mine from Advanced Geologic Exploration and they know exactly what they're doing and I'm protected. Don't lose a wink of sleep. I want to be a prospector not a lawyer.

 

[fowledup]

Goldwasher- Yes, Location marker, witness and photo are proof. Recorder is your legal leg. if the location marker backs your recording no problem. BLM is just a notification.

This is I how believe some "claim brokers" are acquiring claims, please note I said some. I have been at a loss as to how they were finding and claiming so many claims. I spend hours researching and days pounding ground. I'm not a broker, in fact I've never sold a claim. I do however enjoy researching places open to location in hopes of finding a better claim. That being said, they always seem to beat me to the county recorders I was backwards in my thinking I believe some are not researching closed claims or areas open to location. Some are monitoring the county offices, and pulling recent filling reports. If they see a claim they figure isomebody won't catch them filing on. They backdate their filing to predate the new claimants filing. Since they have 90 days to file with BLM they hold off, meanwhile marketing the claim. If it goes uncontested they either file the claim with BLM or wait to file it with BLM that way they can then simply deed it over to the purchaser leaving the purchaser with a potential nightmare.

It's all part of the game but it does get frustrating doing the research, and groundwork, thinking you've got one. Then spend the time and expense off driving a hundred miles round trip to the county offices only to find out that a well known claim "broker" has already filed, even though your BLM rLR2000 research and phone calls showed the area or claim open. Topping it off you figure out the new claimant hasn't filed with the BLM on any of them but the filing dates are close to the 90 day filing time limit.

 

[bug]

At the placerville gold fair, one of the "brokers" stated he does not even go to BLM unless the claim sells. This is how these guys make good money with basically none out of pocket. If the claim doesn't sell, they refile after 90 days at county. They got the system nailed down.

 

[NeoTokyo]

Mcordell we shouldn't have to use Brokers and I don't think they should be allowed to operate the way they do.

 

[MadMarshall]

Consider buying a claim from a reputable broker next time. I bought mine from Advanced Geologic Exploration and they know exactly what they're doing and I'm protected. Don't lose a wink of sleep. I want to be a prospector not a lawyer.

The only "Reputable Broker" I deal with is my GOLD PAN. Pretty cheap and never lies..

 

[Bonaro]

THIS IS THE EXACT REASON I SAY BACK FILE--and caught MUCH bs here for suggesting it. You file-they backfile and your up a creek with no paddle and a hole in the boat. Welcome to the crowd as new computer programs scan ALL NEW BLM FILES and backfiling done automatically dirty rotten claimjumping scum sucking filthy illegal dogs. New year same ol'stinkn' game-it begins John

You cant be any more right than this. Unfortunately it appears that the other guy located prior to you and you are the overfiler....the guy who is over filing you backfiled and now it's a civil matter as the BLM will not be enjoined in this decision.

 

[fowledup]

You cant be any more right than this. Unfortunately it appears that the other guy located prior to you and you are the overfiler....the guy who is over filing you backfiled and now it's a civil matter as the BLM will not be enjoined in this decision.

I get what your saying ,but if it gets to the point where a court case is required everytime somebody files a claim that is just plain wrong. People need to buck up and get themselves some freakin honor and integrity. UGGHHHH - Is that what it's come to, a law suit to resolve every issue?

 

[goldenIrishman]

Of course it does Fowled! The lawyers have been working towards that for years! Why else do you think they use their own language where words mean entirely different things that they do for the rest of the world? Then they get paid to decipher all those words! Best job security in the world!

There is no doubt in my mind that there are some changes needed in the filing system to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Dated pictures of the monument of discovery as well as proper corner markers should be required as part of the filing. If nothing else, this will show that the spirit of the law of having boots on the ground to actually make a discovery has been upheld. Filing for a claim that you've never even been to is NOT in the spirit of the law and should not be allowed.

 

[Bejay]

Validation of actual discovery on a claim would certainly avoid such fraud. The actual "affidavit" is a viable concept....but there is simply no current oversight that I am aware of.

(although...careful what one asks for comes to mind immediately)

Bejay

 

[Bejay]

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/30/26

30 U.S. Code § 30 - Adverse claims; oath of claimants; requisites; waiver; stay of land office proceedings; judicial determination of right of possession;...of land office proceedings and judgment roll; alienation of patent title | LII / Legal Infor

 

[Doug Watson]

Too many claims being filed without fulfilling the proof of discovery as was said above. If that was enforced the majority of claims filed wouldn't be valid.