tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[the blindbowman]

legends are often surounded with little true evidence yet just enough to make a preson wonder if the legend could be true , Tayopa is the exception to this rule ...IMHo at frist i saw many reasons that Tayopa was nothing more then a wild treasure tail for the camp fires of our over active imaginations, and beleive me when i say i have as good of a imagination as any ...

when started my research . i was looking into a area that i had a sighting of a odd event . yet i found the area rich in history and events that i would latter relate to a few diffrent legends and hyplothesis .. yet one fact has come to lighht ... the legend of tayopa is in fact real .. i ask my friend RDT . a question to see what his answer was .. but it was in fact a trick question .. i already know the answer i not only know the answer i can prove it with evidence . a few weeks ago i came across a set facters that define tayopa and as i started to work with the evidence i found the evidence fits my site 4 dirrectly ...i dont feel very safe gong into the mts that far with out protection ...and from what i know at this piont it may take 5 or 6 people to cover this area over a week or more to collect the evidence needed to prove the site . but one part of the legend has given me the clues to do so with in a reasonable dout IMHO i can prove site 4 is tayopa in reality ...


i will wait for my friend RDT to reply before i explan ..my last statement ...

 

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[Jeffro]

Uggghhhhh....


Here we go again.

 

[the blindbowman]

Uggghhhhh....


Here we go again.

why where are you going ...lol

 

[the blindbowman]

THE EARLY SPANISH MISSIONARIES from the university of Arizona library



Following closely in the wake of that army of daring adventurers, fired with the thirst for gold and glory, who conquered the vast empire of the Montezumas, and penetrated to the wild regions northward, came another army, which made up in fiery zeal what it lacked in numbers; an army proclaiming ‘‘peace on earth and good will to men,’’ whose standard was the emblem of Christianity, and whose mission was the spreading of the gospel among the tribes of the far South-west. Padre de Niza, as has been before stated, was the pioneer of the cross in what is now known as Arizona. He penetrated to the Cities of Cibola, and on his return to New Spain spread glowing reports of their richness and extent, which led to the expedition of Coronado. It has been charitably supposed that the father indulged in this exaggeration in the hope of extending the gospel of Christianity among the natives, but Coronado and his followers, disappointed in not finding the expected treasures, abandoned the country in disgust, and no efforts were made to establish permanent settlements in Arizona until more than a hundred years later.

The first attempt to found missions in this Territory, then known as Pimeria Alta, was made by the Franciscan fathers in 1650, at the Moquis villages. The enterprise was undertaken under the direction of the Duke of Albuquerque, then Viceroy of Mexico. In 1680, the Indians rebelled, massacred many of the Spaniards, and the missions were abandoned and never reestablished. As near as can be ascertained, the first mission built in Southern Arizona, was at Guavavi, forty-six miles south of Tucson, in the latter part of the seventeenth century. The mission of Tumacacori was founded some time afterwards, and San Xavier, below Tucson, in 1694. In the same year, Fathers Kino and Mange, who had been active in establishing missions in Sonora, visited the Gila river, and were the first to thoroughly inspect the ruins of the Casa Grande. They also explored the lower Gila and Colorado. Father Kino was a true friend of the Indians, and labored untiringly to better their condition. He procured an order from the Audience of Guadalajara that his neophytes should not be apportioned out to work in the mines. Father Kino established several missions among the Pimas, who made rapid progress in civilization under the parental care of the humane priest. In 1720 there were nine missions in a flourishing condition within the Territory now known as Arizona. They were Tubac, San Xavier del Bac, Joseph de Tumacacori, San Miguel, Guavavi, Calabasas, Arivaca and Santa Ana. They were rich in flocks and herds, and in the products of the silver mines, which they worked extensively.

...

note the last church listed , is Santa ana but note the date Kino died in 1711 and it dose not say kino founded the santa ana church ...it just stated it was one of the curches of 1720 that were nine missions in a flourishing condition within the Territory now known as Arizona.


also note :The first attempt to found missions in this Territory, then known as Pimeria Alta, was made by the Franciscan fathers in 1650, at the Moquis villages. The enterprise was undertaken under the direction of the Duke of Albuquerque, then Viceroy of Mexico. In 1680, the Indians rebelled, massacred many of the Spaniards, and the missions were abandoned and never reestablished. As near as can be ascertained, the first mission built in Southern Arizona, was at Guavavi, forty-six miles south of Tucson, in the latter part of the seventeenth century....

founding of tayopa church pre dates these site by around a 100 years by my target dates ,, look at the date of 1650 thats only 4 years after the 1646 date of the tayopa treasure trove list .. and where was it from santa ana church , this is the sorce of the stone tablets and the treasure trove list ...

 

[the blindbowman]

there is a good reason why i posted the data above , look at where these churches are , now i could only place 6 of the churchs plus tayopa church at site 4 .. from the sea port of Guaymas north there are 7 out of the 10 churchs , tayopa would have been the 10th church and the most isolated of them all ...if this is true they would have shiped ore south to Guaymas from all of these areas , it makes sence , the churches would want to know what is happening and where and when ore is being shiped ...

this also tells us most like tayopa was already destoryed by 1720 or by the death of kino in 1711 ...or kino would have made a statement about it ...so the stone tablets said they went 18 places , here is 10 churchs ,they may dug in 18 places but there were only 10 chruchs , the churchs were not the ones doing the digging ....


i think the spanish were working the vally northward , its changes dirrection after the supersititions mts ...IMHO we are looking at Tayopa at site 4 , it makes good logic , that tayopa would have been the 10th church in the line of churchs ...even if the priest did not work the mines they did work the people ...lol often under the protection of the spainish , note when the bell had the names Sonora may not have been talking about sonora mexico , it could have been talking about Sonora AZ south east of site 4 . about 20 miles south east of florence junction ...a old silver mineing town ....

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigos,

Blindbowman I realize that you continue to try to connect Tayopa with the Superstitions because you found the name "encoded" on the Peralta Stones, but have you really researched Tayopa? Even without the huge geographical problem, let us look just at the date. The date is important, because most traditions put the founding of Guadeloupe de Tayopa in 1632, which is some eighteen years before the first Padres bothered to enter Arizona to found missions in 1650. See a problem there? In 1632, Arizona was still the "wild frontier" even for the missionaries.

So now I have to ask you a difficult question amigo:

Are you claiming that all of the Mexican and Spanish archives, all of the Yaqui traditions, in fact everything related to Tayopa are ALL WRONG, since you have made the claim that it is really in the Superstitions and NOT in old Mexico?

How you answer this simple question will tell me a lot amigo.

I will not step on our amigo's (Real de Tayopa) toes, as he has done far more research into the true history of this incredible bonanza than I ever did. Actually if I were you, I would question whether it is truly the name "Tayopa" encoded on those Peralta stones, or perhaps something quite different? What about a KEY LANDMARK related to Tayopa amigo - Cerro de la Campana

Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

yes because we have problem that is not going away its getting bigger as i research site 4 .. this site out right fits Tayopa,s treasure trove list discription in a way that it can not be misteaken ...the reason i say that is the church at site 4 pre dates 1646 ... fact !

 

[the blindbowman]

how do i know this the treasure trove list of tayopa that came from the santa ana church is dated 1646 and the statement i ask RDT about is a very dirrect order of structure and can in no way be randomly placed at any site other then the true Tayopa .and it dose fit site 4 ...in that order ....if RDT has found the true tayopa he would know this set order ...

so your answer is yes i do question everything ....do you under stand the question i ask RDT ...?

 

[the blindbowman]

HOLA mi amigos,

Blindbowman I realize that you continue to try to connect Tayopa with the Superstitions because you found the name "encoded" on the Peralta Stones, but have you really researched Tayopa? Even without the huge geographical problem, let us look just at the date. The date is important, because most traditions put the founding of Guadeloupe de Tayopa in 1632, which is some eighteen years before the first Padres bothered to enter Arizona to found missions in 1650. See a problem there? In 1632, Arizona was still the "wild frontier" even for the missionaries.

So now I have to ask you a difficult question amigo:

Are you claiming that all of the Mexican and Spanish archives, all of the Yaqui traditions, in fact everything related to Tayopa are ALL WRONG, since you have made the claim that it is really in the Superstitions and NOT in old Mexico?

How you answer this simple question will tell me a lot amigo.

I will not step on our amigo's (Real de Tayopa) toes, as he has done far more research into the true history of this incredible bonanza than I ever did. Actually if I were you, I would question whether it is truly the name "Tayopa" encoded on those Peralta stones, or perhaps something quite different? What about a KEY LANDMARK related to Tayopa amigo - Cerro de la Campana

Oroblanco

how do you agree with that statement of tayopa being founded in 1632 when the bells were cast in 1603 inscribed Tayopa ...? common logic states Tayopa was older then 1603

IMHO 30 years before they got their bells made ... thats around 1571 .. a acount that fits the tayopa legend and the site 4

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Blindbowman,

Blindbowman wrote:

yes because we have problem that is not going away its getting bigger as i research site 4 .. this site out right fits Tayopa,s treasure trove list discription in a way that it can not be misteaken ...the reason i say that is the church at site 4 pre dates 1646 ... fact !

So I take it your answer is YES that ALL of the legends, ALL of the archives, ALL of the Yaqui traditions and our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa are ALL WRONG.

Your site "fits" the Tayopa treasure trove list description? In what way? It cannot be simply because you believe you have found an old church - for you must know that there were NUMEROUS churches and visitas throughout the southwest. If what you have found is in fact a church and in fact pre-dates 1646, then it would be the earliest church in Arizona and ought to be a national historical landmark. You should get the NF Rangers to go to the site with you in order to get it protected and identified for an archaeological dig - heck the tourists will want to flock to it just to see the earliest church in Arizona.

Blindbowman wrote:

do you under stand the question i ask RDT ...?

Actually no I don't. I am still trying to understand your case that you are presenting to show that the real Tayopa is in the Superstition mountains of Arizona. You may be mis-understanding what Real de Tayopa has found - he has never claimed to have found the treasure trove associated with the Tayopa treasure trove LIST, he has found the original MINES, church and settlement (Real de minas). So how can a structured list prove anything about the MINES when he has not yet found the treasure trove?

Okay - before we get any farther down this spiral, please SHOW ME the church amigo?

Oroblanco

Hmm while I was posting this you have posted another reply - Blindbowman wrote:

how do you agree with that statement of tayopa being founded in 1632 when the bells were cast in 1603 ...?

I have not seen any Tayopa bell with any date cast on it. You are relying on the Tayopa Treasure List found by Henry O. Flipper, a man who spent some considerable time hunting Tayopa. If you place this much confidence on the document, don't you also wonder where Flipper searched for Tayopa? (I can give you a hint - he didn't bother looking in Arizona). Then too, this date of 1603 is yet another strong indicator that it was NOT in Arizona, since there were no Spanish settlements in what is Arizona in 1603 amigo. Don't you see that as quite a problem in your theory?

Thank you in advance...
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:

guess why he didnt find it .. because he didnt look where it is ....

Well that statement could easily be used to fit for many lost treasures amigo. So how do you explain the idea of a church in the Superstition mountains that pre-dates the arrival of Spanish colonists as well as missionaries?

Please show me the church amigo? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

PS What about the key landmark associated with Tayopa, amigo - Cerro de las Campanas?

 

[the blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote:

guess why he didnt find it .. because he didnt look where it is ....

Well that statement could easily be used to fit for many lost treasures amigo. So how do you explain the idea of a church in the Superstition mountains that pre-dates the arrival of Spanish colonists as well as missionaries?

Please show me the church amigo? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

PS What about the key landmark associated with Tayopa, amigo - Cerro de las Campanas?

the key landmark is the mine it self ......LOL

 

[Oroblanco]

Amigo they will never grant a permit to excavate a CHURCH - so it should be safe to show a photo or two of this particular building or ruin. Why not? A picture says a thousand words as they say

What about Cerro de las Campanas? Your silence makes me think that you have no answer? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Amigo they will never grant a permit to excavate a CHURCH - so it should be safe to show a photo or two of this particular building or ruin. Why not? A picture says a thousand words as they say

What about Cerro de las Campanas? Your silence makes me think that you have no answer? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

i have posted two picture related to the church here on the site already ... i dont plan to get a premit for the church ...LOL , remeber the vault is not under the church in this case ...LOl

if your talking about the glass and potery . i dont see that as a land mark ...or are you talking about , a Spanish word meaning hill ..
what dose the Cerro de las Campanas, mean to you ...?

i dont speak spainish.. i dont want to learn spainish ...ether ...lol

 

[the blindbowman]

think about walking up to a area and pokeing a stick at the ground untill you hear a hole sound , then wipeing away the sand and rocks to see a large rock slap covering a stairway downward into a vault that has been missing for over 400 years ,, who cares if i am right , other then me lol ....you could have been there ....

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:

i have posted two picture related to the church here on the site already ... i dont plan to get a premit for the church ...LOL , remeber the vault is not under the church in this case ...LOl

if your talking about the glass and potery . i dont see that as a land mark ...

Dang it amigo you are taking me in circles again - or should I say spirals? If you don't plan to get a permit, then why did you use that as an excuse as to why you would not post a photo of the church? If you have already posted photos of the church, then it can do no harm to post them here - or at least please provide a link to the site/thread where they are?

Why would you think I am talking about glass and/or pottery, when I asked you about Cerro de las Campanas? Have you not heard of it? It is most assuredly NOT some glass or pottery mi amigo - it is also called the "Mesa of the Bell-maker" and is a KEY landmark associated with Tayopa. Do you know any mesa in the Superstition mountains that had a bell-maker living/working on it? See this is a big problem too, not to mention the timeline problem or the geographic problem. If you would prefer that I let go of this just say the word, I do not mean to take the place of our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa and am sure he would want to post his own replies when it comes to Tayopa. I am once again trying to understand your theory - and if you are saying that you have Tayopa in the Superstition mountains of Arizona, then there must be a Cerro de las Campanas there also. Or are you saying that the Cerro de las Campanas is NOT a key landmark associated with Tayopa? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote:

think about walking up to a area and pokeing a stick at the ground untill you hear a hole sound , then wipeing away the sand and rocks to see a large rock slap covering a stairway downward into a vault that has been missing for over 400 years ,, who cares if i am right , other then me lol ....you could have been there ....

Well amigo I would have been inside the vault, if only to get photos of what is inside (assuming it to be some kind of treasure) in order to file for a Treasure Trove permit. I can assure you that I would not instantly assume that this must be Tayopa.

You do know that there were many men and women in the Superstitions in the period starting AFTER the death of Jacob Waltz, actively searching for his lost gold mine - and they dug quite a number of shafts and tunnels - some of which are nearly astounding; however none of these would qualify as a rich gold mine in my opinion. So how can you be CERTAIN that what you have found is NOT simply one of those old exploration shafts/tunnels dug by those earlier Dutch-hunters, who often resorted to the use of dynamite?

I am beginning to think I can see where this is all going...
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote:

i have posted two picture related to the church here on the site already ... i dont plan to get a premit for the church ...LOL , remeber the vault is not under the church in this case ...LOl

if your talking about the glass and potery . i dont see that as a land mark ...

Dang it amigo you are taking me in circles again - or should I say spirals? If you don't plan to get a permit, then why did you use that as an excuse as to why you would not post a photo of the church? If you have already posted photos of the church, then it can do no harm to post them here - or at least please provide a link to the site/thread where they are?

Why would you think I am talking about glass and/or pottery, when I asked you about Cerro de las Campanas? Have you not heard of it? It is most assuredly NOT some glass or pottery mi amigo - it is also called the "Mesa of the Bell-maker" and is a KEY landmark associated with Tayopa. Do you know any mesa in the Superstition mountains that had a bell-maker living/working on it? See this is a big problem too, not to mention the timeline problem or the geographic problem. If you would prefer that I let go of this just say the word, I do not mean to take the place of our mutual amigo Real de Tayopa and am sure he would want to post his own replies when it comes to Tayopa. I am once again trying to understand your theory - and if you are saying that you have Tayopa in the Superstition mountains of Arizona, then there must be a Cerro de las Campanas there also. Or are you saying that the Cerro de las Campanas is NOT a key landmark associated with Tayopa? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

no , i am saying the Cerro de las Campanas has been misunder stood , he is the copper bell maker of the indains and is in the tomb at site 1

 

[the blindbowman]

Blindbowman wrote:

think about walking up to a area and pokeing a stick at the ground untill you hear a hole sound , then wipeing away the sand and rocks to see a large rock slap covering a stairway downward into a vault that has been missing for over 400 years ,, who cares if i am right , other then me lol ....you could have been there ....

Well amigo I would have been inside the vault, if only to get photos of what is inside (assuming it to be some kind of treasure) in order to file for a Treasure Trove permit. I can assure you that I would not instantly assume that this must be Tayopa.

You do know that there were many men and women in the Superstitions in the period starting AFTER the death of Jacob Waltz, actively searching for his lost gold mine - and they dug quite a number of shafts and tunnels - some of which are nearly astounding; however none of these would qualify as a rich gold mine in my opinion. So how can you be CERTAIN that what you have found is NOT simply one of those old exploration shafts/tunnels dug by those earlier Dutch-hunters, who often resorted to the use of dynamite?

I am beginning to think I can see where this is all going...
Oroblanco

so why they were hunting they stoped for a little gardening ... ya right , now you are scareing me , people garden in az with dynamite?

 

[Oroblanco]

Mi amigo Blindbowman - if I found ancient ruins in the Superstitions that looked like it had some kind of gardening, mud-stone buildings etc I would be thinking it is most likely Anasazi, Mogollon, Pima, Sinagua or one of the other ancient Arizonan tribes. But then that is me, I try to identify things based on what is most likely first, before going off in other directions.

How can you rule out that what you found is NOT ancient ruins of Anasazi, Mogollon, Sinagua etc? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco