The Beale Codes and Mel Fisher

[Marc]

I know personally that the Fisher family has researched and searched for the Beale Code treasure. In fact, one of them told me that they believed it existed, and that it was under a gas station (I believe they said somewhere in Virgina).

I wonder if they are still searching for it?

Anyone else researching this legendary treasure?

What is the current status?

 

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[Rebel]

Yo! Rebel here: B. T. not found... Mel didn't find it... many still looking... ask Peter@pv.com for "up-dates"... long live da KGC!

 

[Rebel]

Yo! Rebel here, again: Peter's e-mail addy is: OtterV@aol.com for Beale Treasure updates...
has it been found? LGA!

 

[parttime_miner]

I read a website that said they found it..

But then, I dug a little deeper into the internet and found that there are more critics than believers of the Beale Codes...

A few years ago I wrote a small computer program that tried to match the numbers to whatever text I would give it. I tried quite a few different historic documents, but with lack of results... gave up..... (interesting note...when reproducing the known translation, it seemed to have a lot of matching errors... The sentences didnt read properly... I did it by hand to check and was still messed up)

I then read that a professor of statistics did a study of the beale codes and said that the other 2 pages that are yet uncracked are bogus, because of statistical analysis...

There are stories that it was all cooked up by the publisher of the Beale Codes journal, (the guy know cracked the first code). To sell some copies, and make money..

Also, there was some question as to if the original party involved actually went to mexico / could have gone to mexico, within the period of documented sightings and such...

Still...with all that in mind.... there is still room for questions... which means that it could be true...

I heard there is a guy that had been diggin up the country side for years, with a backhoe, in-search of the treasure... Still diggin, I suppose...

but.. then again... i'm still in gold country diggin too....

good luck!

 

[Rebel]

Yo! Rebel here, again: Yep... maybe someone DID find it... according to another web-site... ("Lawd, I'm soooo tired!" ) In the 1930's, the Wright family found heavy pots of stuff "one-half mile below where Walnut Grove Church is today... in North Goose Creek." They had to flee to Mexico... cause they could not pay their taxes... (rekken not, on all THAT $$$$!). ANYWAY... they became extremely wealthy... enough to come back to Bedford, Va. and build an old folks home... a'int THAT nice! Wonder if the home has something under it... like TREASURE! Might have to go there someday, myself... and not to dig, that is... too old for that stuff! Long live da KGC!

 

[Old Prospector]

:- Hello, the story of the Beale treasure has been on going for many years. I looked at the codes, some
magazine articles, and the TV thing on Unsolved Mysteries. After studying the codes for awhile, I
concluded they were fake. (Seems the prof in one of the replies is right!) The story has it that the codes
were taken to a print shop to be printed up for distribution. That night, there was a fire in the print
shop. (Not unusual in print shops, ink was very flamable.) My guess; the real codes were not released
after that, fake codes were made public (the fire covered the theft of the real codes). Is the treasure
there? Not likely; how could the location be kept secret when Beale was accompanied by a group of
men? If Beal and most of his friends were dead, what would keep one of them from returning to get
the stash? Today, the Beale treasure is just a come on to trap tourists, like the legend of the Lost
Dutchman mine. (You do know there was not a lost mine, don't you? Check out a book called "Fools
Gold" from the 1970's).
Old Prospector

 

[Monk]

Prospector, I agree with you! The time wasted on that is time wasted. To many have wasted there time going in circles.

 

[Erick]

Jeff and others,

Of all of the proposed solutions for the mystery surrounding the Beale Papers and their two remaining unsolved ciphers, I have not yet seen the simplest and most obvious solution presented.

In the Beale Papers, J. B. Ward wrote:

To systematize a plan for my work I arranged the papers in the order of their length, and numbered them, designing to commence with the first, and devote my whole attention to that until I had either unravelled its meaning or was convinced of its impossibility - afterwards to take up the others and proceed as before.

This statement, in and of itself, would not be very important were it not for the fact that the solitary cipher that claims to have been solved by J. B. Ward himself, possesses the following content:

Paper number one describes the exact locality of the vault so that no difficulty will be had in finding it.

As a result, the statement that should immediately stand out in Ward's "Beale Papers" (to the skeptical mind) is:

"To systematize a plan for my work I arranged the papers in the order of their length, and numbered them..."

One must ask themselves how, then, could the paper left to Morriss By Thomas J. Beale possess any mention of the order of the papers (i.e., paper number one, paper number two, paper number three) if J. B. Ward, by his own admission, was the individual that assigned them their order based upon their length? If Thomas Beale had actually arranged the papers in any sort of order, he would have insured that Morriss could know which paper was number one, which was number two, and which was number three by numbering them himself in some manner. As he did not, evidenced by the fact that Ward (once again) claims to have done so himself, one can only logically conclude that Ward himself authored all of the associated documents and the Beale Treasure is a hoax.

I present this evidence to you now, in the event that it has never before been posited.

Sincerely,

Erick W. Wright
Independent Researcher

 

[Erick]

Jeff,

I took up the challenge of breaking the ciphers several years ago. ?After approximately six months of steady research and experimentation, the result was one complete sentence - the first sentence. ?I was able to derive this sentence by examining the number of times each number in the cipher repeated in the text; this was then compared and matched with the the frequency of occurance of letters in the English language - starting with the most common and working down to the least. ?Each of the numbers in the cipher was assigned the letters most likely to be associated with it based upon the aforementioned process. ?These were typed out or hand written in descending order on a legal tablet (i.e., top to bottom of page). ?Lastly, the combinations of word possibilities (which at times seemed almost endless) was examined and notated on the side, with each letter of the word occupying the same line as the number in the cipher to which it was associated. ?The result of all this work was that the first sentence seemed to be revealed. ?It read:

"If you look at three hints I put at the beginning of that which I call two it should help. ?It will be at the cave..."

Those three hints, of course, were:

• In the County of Bedford
• Approximately four miles from Buford's
• In an excavation or vault six feet below the surface of the ground

About that time, matters of a more academic nature took me away from the research surrounding the Beale Papers, and I have not returned to it until today, when I came across the file folder. ?Six months worth of research and experimentation resulted in a file forlder 3/4 of an inch thick and resulted in only the one sentence being deciphered before being put away until some later time. ?I may choose to pick it up again, if only to solve the cipher in its entirety; however, I no longer believe that there is any truth to the story.

Upon what specific evidence have you placed your faith in the historacy of the story?

 

[Erick]

Jeff,

It is not particularly suprising that J. B. Ward would have known so much about the Buford's or the area around Bedford, since he was married to Harriet Emaline Otey. Harriet Otey was the grandaughter of John H. Otey who, in 1790, married Elizabeth Buford, sister of Paschal Buford, the owner of Buford's Tavern - the same tavern where Thomas Jefferson Beale is alleged to have stayed for a month in 1819, plus two other shorter visits, one before and one following that month long visit. John Otey is also purported to have (at one time) owned close to 1100 acres along Goose Creek in Bedford County. John H. Otey and Elizabeth Buford Otey had many children, including one John Buford Otey, who married Angelina M. Brown in 1817. Their daughter, Harriet Emaline Otey, was born on a farm near Buford's tavern in 1827 and married James B. Ward sometime between 1840-1843. Even more interesting, are the travels that James B. Ward undertook. After an eighteen-month stint in the Military Academy, he journeyed to St. Louis, MO in 1840 where he worked as an assistant to the military pay clerk. It was in St. Charles, MO that he met Harriet and was married. In 1843, the Wards moved back to the Lynchburg area, where James had been born and raised. Harriet was born and raised in the Bedford area and had close ties there, and during the period between 1840 and 1856 there was a great deal of communication between the Oteys, Bufords, and Wards. In March, 1852, in partnership with his brother-in-law John W. Otey, James Ward purchased a sawmill and a few acres of land only a couple of miles from where his wife Harriet was born (remember, she was born only a couple of miles from Buford's Tavern?). This land was sold in September of 1856.

James B. Ward would have occasion to get to know Robert Morriss fairly well, due to the fact that Robert had business dealings with Harriet Ward's father, John H. Otey, beginning in the early 1820's. In fact, such a close relationship developed between Robert & Sarah Morriss and James & Harriet Ward, that the middle name of the Ward's daughter Ann was...yep, you guessed it...Morriss.

Paschal Buford inherited the tavern from his father in December, 1814. In july of the following year he was granted a license to operate the tavern, and he did so, almost uninterrupted, until his death in 1861. So, if anyone would have hosted Mr. Thomas J. Beale during the years of 1819-1822 it would have been Paschal and Frances Buford (i.e., Frances Ann Otey, neice of John H. Otey and cousin to Harriet Ward), the owners and operators of Buford's Tavern.

So, I think that its very clear that James B. Ward had very good familiarity with all of the area mentioned in the story, with the exception of the area around 250-300 miles north of Santa Fe, which was very vague in its description anyway.

There's really no doubt in my mind that James B. Ward is the author of all of the documents associated with the so-called Beale Treasure. That dosn't mean that I wouldn't like to solve the cipher anyway, at least, to see if the cipher contains directions to somewhere and, if so, if there is anything buried at the location it describes.

Erick

 

[Erick]

Jeff,

Angelina Brown was the sweetheart of Thomas J. Beall...

I'm curious how you would know this since it would not be a matter of public record, and Angelina Brown was married to John Buford Otey in 1817, a full two years before Thomas Beale is supposed to have visited Buford's Tavern?

John Otey himself, I believe was the author of the Beale Treasure story. He and his wife went to St. Louis in search of the "KEY" that was never mailed to Robert Morriss, or was lost in transit.

Although (at this point) I can neither verify nor refute that John B. Otey and his wife Angelina traveled to St. Louis, MO, I would not dispute it. I would, however, question any statement purporting to know the reason they traveled to St. Louis. The combination of possible reasons they could have traveled there is endless. Stating that they did so in order to find the "key" to the ciphers is really nothing more than speculation.

Furthermore, if John B. Otey was actually the author, then what need would he have to travel to St. Louis in order to find a "fictional" key?

Lastly, I think that its far more plausible that J.B. Ward came into possession of the ciphers through his wife's cousin Frances' marriage to Paschal Buford - the proprietor of Buford's Tavern during the time Thomas Beale is purported to have visited there. Consider the following:

• Paschal Buford died in 1861. The Beale Papers story has Morriss relating the story to Ward in 1862.
• The Beale Papers story has Thomas Beale staying for a month at Buford's Tavern sometime during the second half of 1819, during the period that Paschal Buford owned the tavern.
• The Beale Papers story purports that Robert Morriss first met Thomas Beale in January of 1820 and had contact with him through 1822, while keeping the Washington Hotel in Lynchburg, VA; however, this is precisely the period (beginning in the early 1820's) in which historical records reveal him to have had business dealings with John H. Otey - Harriet Ward's grandfather.
• The Beale Papers story has Beale stating that he "was advised by his guide to form a regular military organization, with a captain"; Ward attended the Military Academy in New York for 18 months before leaving for St. Louis, MO - exactly where Beale and his party left old Virginia to head to, and exactly where he stated he was told to form a "military organization". Additionally, according to your research, this is exactly where Ward's uncle got him the position as paymaster.

Isn't it far more likely, then, that Harriet Ward might have assisted her cousin Frances, upon the death of her husband Paschal in 1861 and, during such activity, they encountered the box with the ciphers? Harriet could have then taken the ciphers home to her husband to see if he could solve them. Of course, this is all speculation, but Ward seems to have connections to everyone and everyplace mentioned in the story...John H. Otey does not.

I have did my research but I am not going to do as you have done give it out freely down to the middle names. It cost a lot to find most of this research.

Really? I don't see why; most of this information is freely available to anyone on RootsWeb.com and GenWeb.com.

One of their grandfathers may have been in on the assassination of Thomas Jefferson and John Adams (Also James Monroe)...

That may be, however, I don't buy into conspiracy theories. I prefer to stick to what history can tell us with some degree of certainty and leave the conspiracy theories to others. Involvement with those sorts of theories tends to detract from your credibility as a researcher.

Regards,

Erick

 

[Erick]

Jeff,

You need to get some of your information from the clerk's office. Half of what is on Rootsweb and GenWeb.com is not true.

Jeff, I'm not sure where you think their info comes from, but it is compiled from over 4,000 databases containing census records, birth & death records, newspapers articles, land deeds, etc. In other words, they've compiled their info from County Clerk offices nationwide.

Nevertheless, you were correct about Paschal; he did, in fact, die on July 23, 1875 - a fact that is well attested to in WebRoots with quite a few entries. I mistakenly wrote that Paschal Buford died in 1861. I believe that what I was referring to was the supposed interruption in Paschal's operating of the business sometime after May of 1861.

Secondly, how do you know that Thomas J. Beale had not stayed at Buford's Tavern or the Brown House before 1817.

I don't, but then again, neither do you know that he did. Research is usually best kept to info that can be confirmed.

Thomas J. Beale went out West in 1815 before he came back and got his group of 30 men together in 1817.

Again, where are you getting this? The story never mentions such a trip. In fact, the story states that the company of 30 men left old Virginia (i.e., eastern Virginia) for St. Louis, MO, early in April of 1817. The next month and a half was used for making the trip, purchasing the necessary outfits, procuring a guide and two or three servants, and obtaining information and advice; the remainder of the year of 1817 was consumed with the trip to Santa Fe. There is no mention of any previous stay at Buford's Tavern, nor romance between Thomas Beale and Angelina Brown. In fact, the story shows Thomas Beale to have been consumed with his hunting trip out west for nearly the entire year of 1817 - the very same year that Angelina Brown married John Buford Otey.

There was a lot of reasons for John Otey and Angefelina to travel to St. Louis. They did have kin folk in St. Louis. It may not have been to find the "KEY" but it could have been.

True, it could have been...but, then again, it could have NOT been.

I won't give you all of my information just because you disagree with some of my speculation. I told you that I was still researching on these speculative ideas. Don't say they are wrong. There is not enough information to confirm either yes or no at this time.

Whoa! there, defensive Davis! When did I ever say that you were wrong? And what is the deal with the "secretive" nature with which you treat such very public information? Anyone with a computer and half a brain can locate the same info. My only point has been that you seem to tend to want to speak of your speculations as if they are fact. Sometimes I wonder if the line between fact & speculation hasn't become blurred for you. Its very easy for a person to convince themselves that something they want to be true actually is.

Also in your post you suggest that the author whom ever it was had the "KEY" to the ciphers. He did not! That is why he published the story in the first place, to bring that which is hidden to light.

The story states that is the reason why the story was published; again, this is not necessarily a fact. My suggestion that the author of the pamphlet, whomever it was, possessed the key to the ciphers is based on logic. Once again, the author of the paper claims to have arranged the ciphers in order by length and numbered them one, two and three. The cipher that was supposedly "solved" by the author of the pamphlet contains the sentence "Paper number one describes the exact locality of the vault so that no difficulty will be had in finding it" and the phrase "...the following articles belonging jointly to the parties whose names are given in number three herewith". If the author of the pamphlet is the individual that numbered the ciphers, and the ciphers themselves contain a mention as to which number they are, then the logical conclusion is that the author of the pamphlet and the author of the ciphers are one and the same. The author of the ciphers would have been in possession of the "key" as this would have been the manner in which he would have created his substitution cipher. What more plausible manner would explain how the author of the pamphlet happened to land upon the correct order of the numbering of the documents? Chance? I don't think so.

Where did you get these bad dealings between John Otey his wife and Robert Morriss?

I must admit that I haven't the foggiest idea as to what you are talking about. When did I ever say that John Otey and his wife had "bad dealings" with Robert Morriss?

Robert Morriss speculated in tobacco heavily and that year was a bad crop for tobacco. I don't buy that one because Robert Morriss had dealings with hundreds of customers.

What year would that be? And when did I ever mention tobacco?

Another obtion you may want to look into. There was a Ward that went West with Montgomery Pike in 1805 to 1807. There was a Ward that Robert Morriss kept freely in his home for almost twenty years.

There was also a Montgomery Ward, but there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that James Beverly Ward was the Ward that went west with Montgomery Pike, or the Ward that stayed with Robert Morriss in his home for nearly twenty years.

That was the reasons for the early unauthorized Buffalo Hunt in 1818.

When Thomas Beale and his party arrived James Pursley or Purcell was still there.

Unsubstantiated speculation, and nothing more.

You must also remember that Sarah Mitchell, Robert Morriss wife died at the home of James Beverly Ward.

Yes, true. So?

Surely, she talked of her husbands obsession of trying to find the "KEY" to a cipher code that would lead him to a large treasure.

Possibly; if, in fact, he was ever in possession of the box to begin with, which I'm not convinced that he was. Most of the evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

Robert Morriss himself died at the home of David Saunders on Rosalyn Street. The Street named for his wife. David Saunders could have been the author.

Yes, he could have...along with hundreds of other possibilities.

I haven't found his service record during the Civil War yet. His ancestors were known to be patriots. You know that the author said that he had to attend to affairs in Richmond before Robert Morriss finished telling him the story.

"...affairs of importance required my presence in Richmond..." could mean anything. If the author of the paper was not fighting in the Civil War, then he was probably engaged in some sort of business related to the war effort. If I were you, I would investigate that possibility.

I could go on and on for there are tons of research I have and I am not going to give it all out here trying to prove or disprove whether I have done my research or not.

If you're not here to discuss your research, then why are you here?

No offense intended, Jeff, but whether or not you've done your research seems to be less a question than how you've interpreted the research you've done so far.

Regards,

Erick

 

[Erick]

"Defensive Davis,"

Why so bitter? You're not going to start crying now are you? Let's examine your last post and look at the incredible leaps into the conclusionary gulf that you make, shall we?

First of all in your third quote of my reply you say Thomas J. Beale did not go out West before 1817. (Check out the Missouri Gazette, June 30, 1815.)

Gee, you got me there. There couldn't possibly have been more than one Thomas J. Beale in this country in 1815! Or is it Beall? Because I've noticed that you bounce back and forth between the two spellings.

In your second quote you say how do I know that Thomas J. Beale stayed at the Brown House or at Bufford's Tavern before 1817? In his long letter Beale said they intended burying the treasure in a cave near Bufords which they had knowledge of before the intended burial was planned. Past tense.

"Past tense." Brilliant piece of detective work, Sherlock! Because God knows the entire letter isn't written in past tense! Actually what Beale's letter to Morriss states is:

It was finally decided that it should be sent to Virginia under my charge, and securely buried in a cave near Buford's Tavern, in the county of Bedford, which all of us had visited, and which was considered a perfectly safe depository.

So, all thirty men (mind you, none of which appear to have been from the county of Bedford, since all of them were said to have come from "Old Virginia", and since historical records do not reveal thirty men of the county of Bedford to have just up and vanished in the years of 1817-1822) just happened to have visited this one little cave behind Buford's Tavern. Now, when might they have possibly had opportunity to do that? That couldn't possibly have happened on the trip out to St. Louis, MO in May of 1817, now could it have? But even if such an unlikely event were to have occured, in just the fourth sentence following that Beale's letter states that "they stopped at Buford's, where they remained for a month, under pretense of hunting, etc. we visited the cave, and found it unfit for our purpose. It was too frequently visited by the neighboring farmers, who used it as a receptacle for their sweet potatoes and other vegetables. So, all thirty men had visited this cave just two years prior and found it to be the "perfect" place to hide their hoard of treasure and, yet, now, just two years later, a bevy of farmers had descended on the cave to store their sweet potatoes and other vegetables? And why would it have taken ten men a month to discover that their previously perfect hiding spot was now unsuitable, scout and locate a better place, and transfer their treasure to that spot? There's just too much in these statements that doesn't wash.

In your fifth quote, you say that all of my research is public information. Sure it is public information, mostly if you know where to loook and find it?

Actually, I didn't say that. If you'd bother to read my post you'd see that what I ASKED you was "What is the deal with the secretive nature with which you treat such very public information?" Information regarding names, birth records, death records, etc., is easily located online within a matter of minutes. Sure, knowing where to look for it is 90% of the battle, but this is a discussion forum, Jeff, not a meeting of some secret society. If you're not prepared to discuss your findings then, once again, what are you doing here?

Your sixth quote, you say that the author of the Beale Treasure Story had the "KEY" The "KEY" was lost in a mail robbery, Robert Morriss never received it and it has never resurfaced. Why print a story if you have the "KEY" DIG THE TREASURE UP. Who needs fifty cents a copy when you can get $750,000.

Or $14,000,000? The problem with the statements contained within the quote directly above, is that it ASSUMES that the story is true, in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, and proceeds upon that assumption. You state that the "key" was lost in a mail robbery as if it is fact. You have no direct knowledge that such a key ever actually existed, and if so, that it was ever lost in a mail robbery. And you still have yet to respond to the logical statement that If the author of the pamphlet is the individual that numbered the ciphers, and the ciphers themselves contain a mention as to which number they are, then the logical conclusion is that the author of the pamphlet and the author of the ciphers are one and the same. Instead, you just keep plodding along under the assumption that the story is true completely ignoring that logic. So, the answer to your question is if the $750,000 never existed to begin with.

As for your seventh quote, go to your post May 28, 2005; quote number two; line numbers 13 thru 16. Isn't that your words?

Gee, I don't know, Jeff. Why don't you tell me? After all you're the la plupart d'excellent chercheur here? So, why don't you just go to the place where I wrote that John Otey and Robert Morriss had "bad dealings", cut & paste that sentence into a quote box, and post it for all the world to see? Because, what I recall writing, and what my posting clearly reveals that I wrote, is that John Otey and Robert Morriss had business dealings in the early 1820's.

In your eight quote the first line was your words, the second line was my response to your line. I was the one that mentioned Robert Morriss having bad dealings in tobacco. You said Robert Morriss had bad dealings with John Otey. (Refer to the seventh quote correction of your quote above.)

Interesting. Let's examine these statements, shall we? You say that "in the eigth quote the first line was your words" (referring to me, Erick). Well, the first line of the eigth quote is "Robert Morriss speculated in tobacco heavily and that year was a bad crop for tobacco." Now, anyone with the ability to read and a little common sense can determine that I had quoted you from your posting of May 28, 2005, time stamped 04:43:15 pm, where you wrote "Where did you get these bad dealings between John Otey his wife and Robert Morriss. Robert Morriss speculated in tobacco heavily and that year was a bad crop for tobacco. I don't buy that one because Robert Morriss had dealings with hundreds of customers." Now, if you would like to kindly cut and paste into a quote box where I ever made that statement in any of my postings, other than to quote you, then I'll be happy to admit some error on my part. In fact, if you'd kindly cut & paste a quote of me ever having mentioned tobacco in any of my postings, other than to quote you, that'd be just great. Next you say that "I (meaning you, Jeff) was the one that mentioned Robert Morriss having bad dealings in tobacco." Um...yeah, that's pretty much what I've been saying all along. Last, you said that "You (referring to me, Erick) said Robert Morris had bad dealings with John Otey" and then made some lame reference to the seventh quote "correction" of my supposed quote above. I believe that I've already covered this one above, so I'll let it drop. But please do try to follow the conversation more closely in the future, Jeff.

In your ninth quote, you say that there is no evidence that James Beverly Ward went West with Pike. I never suggested that. I only speculated that it could have been a relative. James Beverly Ward was born in 1822; he was not around to go West with Pike in 1805. Your research should have told you this. See we all can make mistakes without looking back at our research.

Ooohhh, good one! Ya got me there, Sherlock! "Another option you may want to look into." No, you couldn't possibly have been any more vague as to what you were talking about.

In your tenth quote, you say that my saying there was an unauthorized buffalo hunt in 1818 is speculation. Wrong again and for the tenth time. This came from the "Spanish Archives". I can give you the name of the book, chapter page and number of entry; if you want me to look it up.

Wrong yet again, Sherlock. If you re-read my post, you'll find that I quoted you as having written "That was the reasons for the early unauthorized Buffalo Hunt in 1818." Presumably, you were referring to this James Pursley (or Purcell, you don't even seem sure of the name!) still being in Santa Fe when Beale and his men arrived, and spouting off about the gold he'd discovered - just as he'd done with Pike and his men in 1805-1807. Whether or not an unauthorized buffalo hunt took place in 1818 is irrelevant. Once again, you have presumed that the Beale story is true and assumed that Beale and his band of 30 merry men must have been the individuals that conducted the illegal, unauthorized buffalo hunt of 1818. Since there's absolutely no direct evidence tying Beale and his men to that event, your theory is nothing but unsubstantiated speculation.

Let's see now, for the count out of your fifteen quotes----------------You say I am correct three times; you say I may possibly be correct two times and you disagree ten times. The ten disagreements stand corrected above; so I am now 15 and 0 and you are 5 and 10; now have I interrupted my research wrong? You can not get the facts right, let along come to a speculation! Good day to you Erick, I have better things to do than to correct your unsubstantiated remarks. However if you make eroneous remarks, I will reply and give you quote and verse again where you are wrong!

Excellent job, Jeff! You couldn't possibly have been more childish in your retort! That was what you were trying for...right?

Once again, Jeff, I'm not attacking you, your research, nor your research ability. The only thing that stands in question is your ability to properly interpret the information that you have gathered. Nothing more.

Regards,

Erick

 

[Erick]

You must be an attorney or have something to do with politics. I have never heard so much double talking in my life. You can twist my words around and your own words around to suit your own purpose.

That is a perfect example of an ad hominem argument, a type of fallacious arguments used by an individual that knows his own arguments are weak. It is when you attack a person's character rather than deal with salient issues.

This most likely is intential to get information. I am sorry you will have to find that yourself.

Jeff, please trust me when I say that if I needed information I would not come to you for it.

From your first post it is quite certain that you believe the Beale Treasure is a story made up by the numbering of the ciphers.

Really? What was your first clue? Could it have possibly be when in my very first posting I wrote "the Beale Treasure is a hoax"?

How else can you solve anything unless you believe that it is true.

Another example of a fallacious argument. This one is known as "petitio principii" or "circulus in probando", but otherwise and more commonly known as "begging the question" (i.e., circular reasoning). It is when an argument assumes as part of its premises the very conclusion that is supposed to be true. To answer your question Jeff, why not try logic and reason?

If you think it is made up, don't do anything or say anything.

That would certainly solve your current dilemma, wouldn't it?

Why are you posting on this forum if you believe the story is made up.

Because I'm still interested in solving the cipher.

Don't make sense to me but then you say I don't make sense anyhow because I believe the story to be true.

Oh, don't sell yourself short, Jeff; there are several reasons you don't make sense.

If you will count the ciphers in each of the three code papers, you will notice that they are not numbered according to length?

Yet another inconsistency in the story.

I have had enough. Good-bye.

That's too bad.

Regards,

Erick

 

[Fithian]

Mel couldn't do it... but this will:

C2 message--- How to "OPEN" it! How to find "Treasure"

"...four miles... + .... six feet..." = 46
At the time that King James was translating his Bible from the "VAULgaTe" (VAULT)--- it is believed by Literary scholars, that he used the services of a 'writer' named 'Shakespear'... who did a rather amazing thing in Psalm 46
Count in-ward, for 46 words... to the word: "shake"
At the end of the Psalm, exclude the word 'Selah' and count up-ward for 46 words to the word: "spear"
"shake + spear"... would also have been 46 years old at this time
This is your "Key" to opening the C2 message... and finding Treasure


In the C2 message, you then have: "1819"
And in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible... you have Psalm "1 18"
In the King James Bible........................ you have Psalm "1 19"
Each of these 'markers' has one thing in common: "176 verses"


In the C2 message, you have the months of: "nov + dec"
In the Dec. of Ind.--- count down-ward for 176 words, to the word: "likely"
Take "likely"--- change to: "li kel y"
In Latin, the "kel" becomes "dec"
From the bottom of the Dec. of Ind.--- count up=ward for 176 words, to the word: "denounced"
Take "denounced"--- change to: "de nou nced"
In Old style English, the "nou" becomes "nov"
"nov + dec"
(3 letters in--- 3 letters across...... just like "33 cantos")


The "locations" of 'likely and denounced' in the Dec.of Ind., are: numbers "176 + 1146"
Take the middle numbers: "7 + 14"
Place the number "13"(... valued at 13 thousand...) as such: "1307 + 1314"
You now have the "dates" that it took Dante Alighieri to write: The Divine Comedy


You will now need the translation of The Divine Comedy, by Henry F. Cary(... someone to CARRY out our wishes)
And on page #66, we read:

"A company, with whom I may not sort,
Approaches. I commend my TREASURE to thee,
Wherein I yet survive; my sole request."

The word Treasure above, is the only word in the entire text, in italics (... vitally...)


Enjoy the 4th of July....... Gentlemen!
This has been presented to you by "The Dante Club" (circa: Boston/1865)

 

[Fithian]

You fella's are missing the point about 'why' there are 3 ciphers:

Ever heard of an "Ottendorf cipher?"


Fithian

 

[onfire]

reply to eric look up dr. r morris in brown county ind. he s related to the bar keep.. also look at a 1848 map of bedford and follow the road to the peaks of otter.

 

[Albert Osborn]

I don't want to start a riot, but Thomas Beale and Jean Laffite
may be the same person. I am a dowser-not a researcher.
I am pretty good at tracking people on a map. As proof of
that, you can contact the Salt Lake Police department
the day before the lost scout was found and verify that
I called them and stated that the search party was going
to miss the boy on that leg of their search and I was
afraid the boy could not stand another night out there.
The search party did miss him and found him the next
day which I believe was the fifth day he had been lost.
I have said all that to say this-every place I find Beale,I
find Laffite. They have the same number (that's dowser
language). I have been to Bedford county. I talked to an
old lady there who had talked to an old woman who in
her youth had dated Beale and described Beale as a
lady's man which fits the description of Laffite ( which
really doesn't prove too much).
Whether or not you two debaters realize it, you really
are using each other as a censor and this helps you to
reexamine your own research.
Good luck to both,
Howso

 

[kaene]

If its under a gas station wouldnt it have been found when they dug the giant holes and put in gas tanks?

 

[bottlecap]

Didn't they find Jimmy Hoffa under Giants Stadium?

Seriously, though, I think I've come to the right place. I've never read a more passionate debate on the legitimacy of the Beale legend (though half of it seems to have disappeared, ahem ahem). It seems pretty clear to me at this point that the pamphlet is fiction. I first read about the Beale Cipher in a Time/Life book about 15 years ago, and researched it thoroughly (or so I thought at the time), putting a lot of effort into simply finding the right book or fumbling with the numbers (cryptography was a hobby).

I gave it up after a couple of fruitless years, and anytime I've Googled it since 1999, I find link after link to sites like "Beale Secret Found! Send $19.95 for details" or totally confusing sites that look like a giant Sudoku headache. One interesting take on the legend was the article I read in "Biggest Secrets" by William Poundstone. One of his doubts, I recall, comes from the fact that the "next of kin" list is barely big enough to contain the names and locations of all of the party members.

Anyway, if somebody would care to break it down into a simple little form that sums it up nicely as to why the legend is false (or true), I'd love to see it.