the Charing Cross connection

[lokiblossom]

Ok, let's try once more. I know that the area was called Charing in the early middle ages. Agreed
I know that King Edward I ordered a cross to be built there for his wife Eleanor of Castile in the early 1290s. Agreed.
But what I asked was what was the earliest reference to the EXACT PHRASE "CHARING CROSS". Not Charing, not the cross at Charing, but "Charing Cross". That's all, quite simple, earliest know reference?


And no, I don't think the Templars are "poking fun at monarchy". I would think they had other things on their minds in 1307.

If the site was called Charing as you agree, wouldn't the memorial be called The Charing Cross? I understand the memorial at Lincoln was called The Lincoln Cross right?
cheers, Loki

 

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[Smithbrown]

Since the Templars are speaking French, they would not call anything Charing Cross. Croisse de Charing, or Croisse a Charing, perhaps. Why would they suddenly adopt an English placename?
Also why the cross at Charing? the cross at Cheapside is actually closer to the Templar property?

 

[New Gold]

The French word for cross is actually "croix". The latin word for cross is "crux" which is also where the English "Cross" comes from.

Why are you ignoring the bend in the river Smithybrown? The "cierring" of the Thames, the greatest landmark in all of London?

From the top floor of the Temple church you could easily see a mile to the construction of the Cross.

 

[lokiblossom]

Since the Templars are speaking French, they would not call anything Charing Cross. Croisse de Charing, or Croisse a Charing, perhaps. Why would they suddenly adopt an English placename?
Also why the cross at Charing? the cross at Cheapside is actually closer to the Templar property?

Most of the Templars that wintered at Ardchattan would have spoke French, but you have to remember, English Knights served in French Houses and French Knights served in English Houses. Please don't take that to mean all Templars in France were English, because that is not what I meant.
In the early spring of 1308 I have premised many Scottish (they had the map) and English Knights showing up at Ardchattan with some of them also members of the inner circle ( I'm surprised you havn't questioned me about this "inner circle").
The cross at Charing was the last and most elaborate of all, and according to Peele the one dedicated with much fanfare, the one the Templars saw as dedicated to a beloved Queen.
Hmm, a hamlet called "Cheapside Cross", very interesting!

 

[NostraDanis]

Regardless of the debate over the origin of the name, isn't "The Cross" the site of alleged Norembega Castle - the one claimed to have been uncovered/excavated by Joan Hope?

I was browsing some stuff on Huffington Post today and ran across a story about a 415 year old atlas called The Wytfliet Atlas that had appeared after having a rather cloak and dagger past. It is apparently considered authentic and is quite accurate in it's orientations in and around North America, even to the west coast. My interest was drawn to the northeast coast, of course, where our favorite little island is found. The area is clearly labeled "Norembega" and appears to have a nice little artist's rendering of a castle on the east coast near an inland river. Hmmm.

My question to the forum members, who are MUCH more knowledgeable than I am on the subject, is this the discovery of yet another map showing a castle in that general location, or was this atlas already known?

Here's a link to the article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/...lies_n_6582112.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Thanks in advance.

 

[lokiblossom]

Regardless of the debate over the origin of the name, isn't "The Cross" the site of alleged Norembega Castle - the one claimed to have been uncovered/excavated by Joan Hope?

I was browsing some stuff on Huffington Post today and ran across a story about a 415 year old atlas called The Wytfliet Atlas that had appeared after having a rather cloak and dagger past. It is apparently considered authentic and is quite accurate in it's orientations in and around North America, even to the west coast. My interest was drawn to the northeast coast, of course, where our favorite little island is found. The area is clearly labeled "Norembega" and appears to have a nice little artist's rendering of a castle on the east coast near an inland river. Hmmm.

My question to the forum members, who are MUCH more knowledgeable than I am on the subject, is this the discovery of yet another map showing a castle in that general location, or was this atlas already known?

Here's a link to the article: Creepy Medical Supplies Found Amid Wreckage Of Pirate Blackbeard's Ship

Thanks in advance.

Yes N.D., you are correct about the site now called the cross. btw, I couldn't find a map in your link, could you check that and maybe repost? I would really like to see it, thanks. Loki

 

[NostraDanis]

Thanks Loki,

Here's another attempt: Wytfliet Atlas, Stolen A Decade Ago From Royal Library Of Sweden, Returned To Owner

My apologies, this new-fangled inter-web isn't my strong-suit!

 

[lokiblossom]

Thanks Loki,

Here's another attempt: Wytfliet Atlas, Stolen A Decade Ago From Royal Library Of Sweden, Returned To Owner

My apologies, this new-fangled inter-web isn't my strong-suit!

View attachment 1114016

Thanks for posting that ND. I have seen similar maps to that one and it appears to me that Norumbega is shown somewhere near the Penobscot river. I believe the small island just off the coast would represent Nova Scotia, with an incorrect rendering of the Bay of Fundy. I would think that large bay to the North to be the mouth of the St. Lawrence, and I can make out the Ottawa River. Also an interesting rendering of what must be Hudson Bay, don't you think? Check out the name "Chilaga" on google.
This is just me of course and it is an interesting map.
cheers, Loki

 

[Eldo]

Thanks for posting that ND. I have seen similar maps to that one and it appears to me that Norumbega is shown somewhere near the Penobscot river. I believe the small island just off the coast would represent Nova Scotia, with an incorrect rendering of the Bay of Fundy. I would think that large bay to the North to be the mouth of the St. Lawrence, and I can make out the Ottawa River. Also an interesting rendering of what must be Hudson Bay, don't you think? Check out the name "Chilaga" on google.
This is just me of course and it is an interesting map.
cheers, Loki

That position of the word corresponds to this castle turret,

in Newport RI

View attachment 1114990

View attachment 1114999

click on the map and the points of reference will be more clear. that's why this seems so old.....the original temlpars came and made stones in the Charing Cross area, and the same exact style of castle was then carried down to the tower there, the architecture is the same

there's no mistaking it,

there are a ton of castles around North America, this one in Vermont

View attachment 1115004

 

[lokiblossom]

That position of the word corresponds to this castle turret,

in Newport RI

View attachment 1114990

View attachment 1114999

click on the map and the points of reference will be more clear. that's why this seems so old.....the original temlpars came and made stones in the Charing Cross area, and the same exact style of castle was then carried down to the tower there, the architecture is the same

there's no mistaking it,

there are a ton of castles around North America, this one in Vermont

View attachment 1115004

I could almost agree with you, but than what is that Island to the East of what must be Gaspe Bay? And I have to change my position on the Penobscot River, the map feature seems to be about halfway between the Gaspe and the Florida peninsula, maybe Chesapeake Bay?

 

[NostraDanis]

It's really hard to know the orientations and intentions, and I have absolutely no expertise. But, it is interesting that there seem to be so many old maps with Norembega represented so prominently, and with a 2-turret castle frequently drawn next to an inland waterway.
That Rhode Island site is a nightmare for the mainstream to explain-away! Who knows how many stone structures have been unnoticed, destroyed, overgrown, etc. in the years since the data for that atlas was learned. Clearly, someone with enough knowledge to create an amazingly advanced map was sure there was a castle on the N. American east coast over 400 years ago.

Loki, I took a look at the speculative origin for what appears to be the early naming of Chicago. Can you just imagine how mad the Bears fans would be to find out that the Vikings named their city!!!

 

[lokiblossom]

Loki, I took a look at the speculative origin for what appears to be the early naming of Chicago. Can you just imagine how mad the Bears fans would be to find out that the Vikings named their city!!!

I never thought of that, lol.

 

[Eldo]

I was relying on overall position, and the reference to the drawn waterways. not one is to scale, but the positions they are located can be found from the inlets they explored, naturally only the largest ones, as they were looking for passages

The reason I say this is that the Turret of the Newport, RI bay there sits right near the inlet and has itself placed there right where the little castle symbol is

this map shows it as well,

View attachment 1115147

originally called Oranbega