"The house now owned and occupied by Max Guggenheimer, ESQ"

[ECS]

The Beale Papers "unknown author" states that Robert Morriss' house was" at the head of Main St, I think he also built", and at the time of the 1885 publication, Max Guggenheimer, lived at this house. Guggenheimer and the agent (James Beverly Ward- not names in the job print pamphlet) chosen by the "unknown author" are the ONLY persons mentioned in the Beale Papers alive at the time of publication.
It is well established that Max Guggenheimer had a house at 1902 Grace Street, the Diamond Hill district of Lynchburg, which is still standing today, but is there any evidence outside of the Beale Papers that he lived at "the head of Main St" in 1885?
Keep in mind, the Beale Papers were written and published for buyers in 1885 Lynchburg, and this may be another of many purposeful discrepancies placed within the work.

 

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[franklin]

The Beale Papers "unknown author" states that Robert Morriss' house was" at the head of Main St, I think he also built", and at the time of the 1885 publication, Max Guggenheimer, lived at this house. Guggenheimer and the agent (James Beverly Ward- not names in the job print pamphlet) chosen by the "unknown author" are the ONLY persons mentioned in the Beale Papers alive at the time of publication.
It is well established that Max Guggenheimer had a house at 1902 Grace Street, the Diamond Hill district of Lynchburg, which is still standing today, but is there any evidence outside of the Beale Papers that he lived at "the head of Main St" in 1885?
Keep in mind, the Beale Papers were written and published for buyers in 1885 Lynchburg, and this may be another of many purposeful discrepancies placed within the work.

1877 Gray's Map

 

[ECS]

The 1877 Grey's Map of Lynchburg has "Max Guggenheimer Jr" located at 600 Main Street with 3 buildings represented.
Residence or Business ?
This not proof that this was once Robert Morriss personal residence, and today at that location is the ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS BUILDING built in 1905.
It is also worth noting that C M Guggenheimer opened his department store in the OLD NORVELL HOUSE building, which is mentioned in the Beale Papers as being called the Washington Hotel which Robert Morriss managed.

 

[franklin]

There is no helping you.

 

[ECS]

THE DAILY VIRGINIAN March 19, 1863
"Notice-The undersigned wishes to inform his friends and customers in the city and country that he has been carrying business at No 167 Main Street, near the NORVELL HOUSE- MAX GUGGENHEIMER Jr"

 

[ECS]

There is no helping you.

It would be helpful by showing on a Lynchburg period map where 167 Main Street was located in relation to the Norvell House.

 

[franklin]

It would be helpful by showing on a Lynchburg period map where 167 Main Street was located in relation to the Norvell House.

That was not what you asked for in post #1? You ask, "but is there any evidence outside of the Beale Papers that he lived at "the head of Main St" in 1885? I answered your question then you want an encyclopedia full of evidence. Well I have the rest of the evidence. I have the deeds when he purchased the property and from whom, the measurements of the property, and to whom Robert Morriss sold the property to when he moved to the Washington House. But to keep asking questions for more information is uncalled for and responding by saying "BUT" this or "BUT" that. About like asking who won a court case and then wanting all the information word for word during the trial. It is all different and uncalled for. You should be grateful and satisfied that someone wants to share any information with you at all with your responses and all.

The Norvell House is on Federal Street not Main Street.

 

[ECS]

That was not what you asked for in post #1? You ask, "but is there any evidence outside of the Beale Papers that he lived at "the head of Main St" in 1885? I answered your question then you want an encyclopedia full of evidence.
Well I have the rest of the evidence. I have the deeds when he purchased the property and from whom, the measurements of the property, and to whom Robert Morriss sold the property to when he moved to the Washington House.
But to keep asking questions for more information is uncalled for and responding by saying "BUT" this or "BUT" that. About like asking who won a court case and then wanting all the information word for word during the trial. It is all different and uncalled for.
You should be grateful and satisfied that someone wants to share any information with you at all with your responses and all.

The Norvell House is on Federal Street not Main Street.

Franklin, some of the evidence you have presented has not been quite right.
You once claimed Robert Morriss of the Beale Papers was related to Robert Morris Jr, signer of the Declaration of Independence, and the ACADEMY OF FINE ARTS building (built in 1905) as being the residence of Robert Morriss, even alluding to the "Masonic symbols", are two examples.
Questions are sometimes required to establish what is an actual fact and what is fill in the blanks wishful speculation.
On a Lynchburg history site relating the history of the Guggenheimer department stores with photos, it states that C M Guggenheimer located his store, 1887, in the OLD NORVELL HOUSE, 9th and Main Street.
Still, none of this proves that anything in the Beale Papers story ever occurred, just that names and locations were employed by this unnamed "unknown author" to provide a plausible believable framework for the narrative story.

 

[franklin]

If you say so it must be so.

 

[ECS]

You expect others to accept what you say as so, without question.
...and still NO evidence has ever been produced that can prove the Beale perilous adventure treasure story ever really happened, just speculation piled on top of more speculation that eventually becomes accepted as fact.

 

[franklin]

Every post we make on this thread of this forum comes back with your same response. Really getting boring to hear now what 7,000 times.

 

[ECS]

...and every post I make on this thread comes back with your same responses, either a complaint about my posts or still looking for new information after 50 years of research, or repeating the same "possibility facts" over and over again, none of which conclusively prove anything relating to the Beale story narrative copyrighted by James Beverly Ward.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

ECS if you do not believe the story why do you keep returning to the threads? Put each other on ignore, this bickering is real old.

 

[ECS]

...

The Norvell House is on Federal Street not Main Street.

Photo of Guggenheimer Department Store (Former NORVELL HOUSE0 on 9th and Main:
http://www.lynchburgphotos.org/Businesses/Guggenheimers-Department-Store/i-Q2H46f3

 

[franklin]

...and every post I make on this thread comes back with your same responses, either a complaint about my posts or still looking for new information after 50 years of research, or repeating the same "possibility facts" over and over again, none of which conclusively prove anything relating to the Beale story narrative copyrighted by James Beverly Ward.

ECS, Not to bicker with you but I have proof of everything I have told you. Guggenheimer had at least three different stores in Lynchburg. I have the Deed where Robert Morriss and Sarah his wife sold "the house and lot where they now reside." They sold the house and lot March 1818. They also sold several other tracts of land they owned to raise money to go into the hotel and tavern business----The Washington House. One of the other tracts was 915 acre Blackwater Plantation he purchased of John Lynch when he and Sarah Mitchell his wife came to Lynchburg. He also sold a plantation of 615 acres that border the plantation of his brother in law William Warwick. The Washington House Robert Morriss and Sarah his wife moved into sat on one corner and to the East on the opposite corner sat the home of William Warwick and Robert Morriss' sister. The Warwick house still stands but is in another location in Lynchburg, Va. Yes I have been researching over 50 years and I have the documentation and research to prove everything I say. The mistake about Robert Morriss and the half brother of Robert Morriss that signed the DOI was an honest mistake as it was information that came from Ancestry.com. I do not trust their sources anymore. I have not seen any first hand information or research you have found in Lynchburg Court Records or Wills and Deeds? All the links you give can freely be found on the Internet. I already have that saved about Guggenheimer and his family along with several thousand other pages of research over the years.

Do you know what this Deed proves? That Robert Morriss and Sarah his wife was running the Washington Inn one and one half years before Thomas J. Beale stayed there. There is another nail in your search for provenance. CW0909 already placed one nail in your provenance when he proved with court documents that Robert Morriss and family lived in Loudoun County. Two nails in the coffin.

 

[ECS]

Also not trying to bicker with you, the link I provided above shows photos of all the Guggenheimer stores, the dates and locations.

 

[franklin]

Also not trying to bicker with you, the link I provided above shows photos of all the Guggenheimer stores, the dates and locations.

I have had that link for years. I read a good book on line yesterday. I will have to go back and find it. It was signed by three historians, Dr. Robertson of Virginia Tech being one of them. It tells about Lynchburg from the beginning of the Civil War until after General Hunter's Raid and General Jubal Early making him retreat, also the surrender of Lynchburg when General Lee said he could send them no support in April 1865. A really good book unpublished I believe. It tells of the Virginia Treasury coming to Lynchburg. I believe they had no money and the citizens of Lynchburg took up over $50,000 for them. Then the Virginia Treasury removed to Danville. I do not know if the treasury money had shown up or not. May have to read it again. I will try to find the link for it. I remember it was 145 pages.

Fort Early they set up outside of Lynchburg may have been close to Hunter's Hill don't know? It is a continuing research project.


https://vtechworks.lib.vt.edu/bitst...5655.V855_1977.M67.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=n

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Ft. Early is IN Lynchburg, Va.; open to visitors ("google it"). Hunter's Hill (JB Risque) was OUTSIDE Lynchburg WEST on FOREST ROAD; Rt. 460 cuts through it, I think... it was near Forest, Va. & Poplar Forest (TJ)... WEST of Lynchburg, Va.

 

[franklin]

I have a general location but the roads have changed. The road used to go through New London but now when they built the Turnpike it was by-passed. The directions I have says 3/4 mile on the West side of the Old New London Road from where the Old New London Road meets the Salem Turnpike about six miles from Lynchburg. I have one paper that says it is on Dreaming Creek and another saying on Burton Creek. I think Dreaming Creek is a branch of Burton Creek?

 

[ECS]

ECS, Not to bicker with you but I have proof of everything I have told you...
I have not seen any first hand information or research you have found in Lynchburg Court Records or Wills and Deeds? All the links you give can freely be found on the Internet...

...and your point?
Does that include posted as fact the sand cast gold and silver bars, the false bottom wagons, the Beale vault near Ruby's house, the Academy of Fine Arts built 1905 at 600 Main as Morriss's house, Pauline Innis being related to the Harts or that Right Rev L E Luscombe was her brother, the Beale pamphlet was not set by hand but by typewriter, which didn't exist until 1886 when the Mergenthaler Linotype Co developed it and the first was NOT sold to the Virginia Print Shop are just a sample of erroneous information.

That is why, whenever it is possible, I post links from the internet to confirm that my information is fact based and not imaginative speculation.
Not to bicker but as you have stated many times, we are all researching to prove or disprove the Beale treasure story, and questioning, correcting and then eliminating misinformation, is just a process in that endeavor.