The Map Pointing to Fish Creek Canyon

[skyhawk1251]

In the TV series "Legend of the Superstition Mountains", Season 1 Episode 3, titled "Decoding the Dutchman's Clues" or "The Dutchman's Code", the Dutch hunting team is guided to a location near Fish Creek Canyon by Bob Schoose, who has shown Wayne Tuttle a map pinpointing that place. The location is on, or very near, a line drawn from Four Peaks to Weavers Needle. Does anyone know exactly where the team was standing to see the "signs" that Bob Schoose pointed out to them?

 

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[markmar]

In the TV series "Legend of the Superstition Mountains", Season 1 Episode 3, titled "Decoding the Dutchman's Clues" or "The Dutchman's Code", the Dutch hunting team is guided to a location near Fish Creek Canyon by Bob Schoose, who has shown Wayne Tuttle a map pinpointing that place. The location is on, or very near, a line drawn from Four Peaks to Weavers Needle. Does anyone know exactly where the team was standing to see the "signs" that Bob Schoose pointed out to them?

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The place they have filmed the scene is marked with red cicle on the GE image. I post also a picture from the movie with the landmarks while pointing to Four Peaks.
PS
I don't believe you have bit how there it's the spot Gonzales made the map, have you?

 

[skyhawk1251]

The place they filmed the scene is marked with a red cicle on the GE image. I'm posting also a picture from the movie with the landmarks while pointing to Four Peaks. I don't believe you have been there -- it's the spot where Gonzales made the map -- have you? -- markmar (edited)

Thanks very much, markmar. No, I haven't been there. I think the spot you marked with the red circle is at, or close enough, to the exact spot where the Dutch hunting team stood with Bob Schoose. They weren't far from a road after walking up a "knoll" as Bob Schoose described it. I would think the drawer of the map would have been standing at a spot where he could overlook the split in the canyon and the locations of the mines. I've marked what I see as the split in the canyon with yellow lines. As far as the mines are concerned, I associate X's with placer deposits, and dots with lode deposits.

Did you notice that when Bob Schoose showed Wayne Tuttle the two maps the other map, not shown here, was similar in some ways to the Gonzales Map, but was not in exact agreement? The Gonzales Map comes much closer to marking the locations of the mines than the other map. This leads me to the question, "if you had to pick a specific place where the mines are/were located, where would that place be?"

 

[markmar]

Thanks very much, markmar. No, I haven't been there. I think the spot you marked with the red circle is at, or close enough, to the exact spot where the Dutch hunting team stood with Bob Schoose. They weren't far from a road after walking up a "knoll" as Bob Schoose described it. I would think the drawer of the map would have been standing at a spot where he could overlook the split in the canyon and the locations of the mines. I've marked what I see as the split in the canyon with yellow lines. As far as the mines are concerned, I associate X's with placer deposits, and dots with lode deposits.

Did you notice that when Bob Schoose showed Wayne Tuttle the two maps the other map, not shown here, was similar in some ways to the Gonzales Map, but was not in exact agreement? The Gonzales Map comes much closer to marking the locations of the mines than the other map. This leads me to the question, "if you had to pick a specific place where the mines are/were located, where would that place be?"

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You edited my post believing I wrote it wrong but my question was if you believed how at that spot Gonzales made the map. I meant if you have bit ( from " bite " ) what they have said in that episode.
You did the same mistake with all who searched that region for the Gonzales mine. The Gonzales map has a treasure code on it which should be applied in regards to have the real image of the map. The concept of the map was to shows a different region than the Salt River, and the clue is written on the map.
So, the map was made for a region where the line in the map joins the Canon Fresco. After finding the junction, apply the code and you will have the canyon/ravine like is in the field.
If you have been lured by the Barry Storm's story on Gonzales mine, then you have to know Gonzales lied to Charles Clark about the real spot depicted in the map, allowed Clark to copy the map knowing he wouldn't be able to " read " it without instructions, and last, Gonzales drew a coded map to Clark for a rich placer gold also knowing he wouldn't be able to " read " it. With little words Gonzales was a SOB, giving to Clark only some gold dust without giving him the gold sources.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Markmar -- Your last post gave me an "ah ha" moment, as it opens up another line of thought. I'll need to think on what you've written for awhile, then I can respond in detail. I can say right this moment, though, that "yes" I accepted what was presented in the TV episode as a possible location for the minas on the map. There is another possibility for Canyon Fresco that I'm considering, and I'll discuss that later. Thanks for your insight on what could be the real story on the Gonzales Map.

For those who are interested, here are some GE images showing Four Peaks and the split in Fish Creek Canyon from above Coronado Mesa. The topo shows the area of interest as conveyed by the TV episode. We must all remember, however, that TV is all about shock and awe, and not much about fact and reality.

 

[skyhawk1251]

You edited my post believing I wrote it wrong, but my question was if you believed Gonzales made the map at that spot. I meant if you have bit (from "bite") what they said in that episode. You made the same mistake as all who searched that region for the Gonzales mine. The Gonzales map has a treasure code on it which should be applied in regards to the real image of the map. The concept of the map was to show a different region than the Salt River, and the clue is written on the map. So, the map was made for a region where the line in the map joins the Canon Fresco. After finding the junction, apply the code and you will have the canyon/ravine like is in the field. If you have been lured by the Barry Storm's story on Gonzales mine, then you have to know Gonzales lied to Charles Clark about the real spot depicted on the map, and he allowed Clark to copy the map knowing he wouldn't be able to "read" it without instructions, and lastly, Gonzales drew a coded map for Clark for a rich placer gold deposit, also knowing he wouldn't be able to "read" it. Gonzales was a SOB, giving to Clark only some paydirt without giving him the gold sources. -- markmar (edited)

Some have presented the theory that Tortilla Creek could be Canyon Fresco. If I'm reading your post correctly, the map does show the junction of a canyon with the Salt River, just at a location other than Fish Creek Canyon. You wrote, "the concept of the map was to show a different region than the Salt River", which seems to imply that the region shown on the map is not related to the Salt River, but since I see "Rio Salado" on the map I must assume you meant, "a different location on the Salt River." Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I've read portions of Barry Storm's book, "Thunder Gods Gold", and just enough of it not to believe any of what he wrote. Storm was too desperate for cash for me to give him any credibility.

I'm still thinking on "the clue is written on the map" and "the Gonzales map has a treasure code on it which should be applied in regards to the real image of the map."

 

[markmar]

Some have presented the theory that Tortilla Creek could be Canyon Fresco. If I'm reading your post correctly, the map does show the junction of a canyon with the Salt River, just at a location other than Fish Creek Canyon. You wrote, "the concept of the map was to show a different region than the Salt River", which seems to imply that the region shown on the map is not related to the Salt River, but since I see "Rio Salado" on the map I must assume you meant, "a different location on the Salt River." Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I've read portions of Barry Storm's book, "Thunder Gods Gold", and just enough of it not to believe any of what he wrote. Storm was too desperate for cash for me to give him any credibility.

I'm still thinking on "the clue is written on the map" and "the Gonzales map has a treasure code on it which should be applied in regards to the real image of the map."

It's a different region than Salt River. And Canon Fresco it's not Tortilla Creek. Look for the canyon which has the most springs on its course and you will find it. The " RIO SALADO " on the map was written for another purpose.

 

[skyhawk1251]

It's a different region than Salt River. And Canon Fresco it's not Tortilla Creek. Look for the canyon which has the most springs on its course and you will find it. The " RIO SALADO " on the map was written for another purpose. -- markmar

markmar -- OK, you've got me lost now. These were my thoughts, thus far, on any codes that might be included in the Gonzales Map before I saw your last post. I notice that the line drawn to indicate Canon Fresco CROSSES the Rio Salado. This could mean that Canon Fresco is on the north side of the river, not the south side. The line drawn from the pointed butte (Weavers Needle) to the four peaks points between the second and third peak. The peaks are drawn in such a way that canyons between them could be depicted on the map. So, I would conclude that if the map is coded, it indicates a canyon that joins the river at the river's north side, and the canyon is found between the second and third peak. Where the canyon forks the minas are nearby. There are seven dashes from the pointed butte to the four peaks, but I'm not yet sure if "seven" is significant, relating to distance, or otherwise.

If "Rio Salado" doesn't actually mean "Rio Salado", I'm even more dubious about the validity of this map. The whole thing could be just a ruse to keep people running around in circles.

 

[skyhawk1251]

About the TV episode, Bob Schoose seemed very confident that he knew the place related to the Gonzales Map. His confidence was based on the "signs" that he had found -- the blazed cactus and the row of rocks on the ground. I don't think anything he did or said during his appearance on that episode was staged or faked for the camera. What should be kept in mind, however, is that the blaze on the cactus could have been made sometime soon after the Peraltas had left the scene, and the row of rocks could have been put there at any time by someone who thought he knew the key to the map. So, although "signs" were there, Bob Schoose was misled by them and the minas have not been found. I've read the tale about Gonzales and the merchant, Charles Clark. There's not much there to make me believe that Gonzales was an honest man. And with that I have to say "end of story." TV once again proved to be great entertainment, but not a purveyor of truth. The Gonzales Map can be thrown in the trash bin and forgotten. Onward to other things.

 

[markmar]

markmar -- OK, you've got me lost now. These were my thoughts, thus far, on any codes that might be included in the Gonzales Map before I saw your last post. I notice that the line drawn to indicate Canon Fresco CROSSES the Rio Salado. This could mean that Canon Fresco is on the north side of the river, not the south side. The line drawn from the pointed butte (Weavers Needle) to the four peaks points between the second and third peak. The peaks are drawn in such a way that canyons between them could be depicted on the map. So, I would conclude that if the map is coded, it indicates a canyon that joins the river at the river's north side, and the canyon is found between the second and third peak. Where the canyon forks the minas are nearby. There are seven dashes from the pointed butte to the four peaks, but I'm not yet sure if "seven" is significant, relating to distance, or otherwise.

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If "Rio Salado" doesn't actually mean "Rio Salado", I'm even more dubious about the validity of this map. The whole thing could be just a ruse to keep people running around in circles.

The Canon Fresco runs south of Salt River, like it's depicted in the map. Also It's draining in salt River, like it's depicted in the map. The line between WN and FP doesn't joins Canon Fresco at Salt River because it's not possible, so the line it's part of the code.
The Canon Fresco after the code is applied, become a different canyon which starts from that junction. The canyon in the map, in reality has a different shape, because Spanish/Mexicans never depicted in their maps the real shape of a canyon, but they used some rock formations which run parallel or close to the canyon.
Also the "X"s in the map, are a code for degrees, which someone has to follow from the junction in regards to find the mine.

Simple ,eh? Welcome to the real treasure hunting world!

 

[skyhawk1251]

The Canon Fresco runs south of Salt River, like it's depicted in the map. Also it's draining into Salt River, like it's depicted in the map. The line between WN and FP doesn't join Canon Fresco at Salt River, because it's not possible, so the line is part of the code. The Canon Fresco, after the code is applied, becomes a different canyon which starts from that junction. The canyon on the map in reality has a different shape, because Spanish/Mexicans never depicted in their maps the real shape of a canyon, but they used some rock formations which run parallel or close to the canyon. Also the "X"s in the map, are a code for degrees, which someone has to follow from the junction in regards to find the mine. -- markmar

markmar -- You're a true pro at "thinking out of the box." As always, this post of your's is another adventure in an alternative world, where nothing is as it really is. I guess, because your viewpoints are consistently a departure from the norm, that's why I give your posts a "like" and always will do so. I'm a believer in such things as bigfoot and a vanished civilization on Mars, so radical interpretations of treasure maps fit in with my mindset with no problems. I give you "five stars" for this post, as it stimulates thought in other directions. Well done.

From what you've written above, I must maintain my position that the Gonzales Map is truly a worthless piece of paper, more than deserving to be tossed into the trash bin and forever to be forgotten. As a map it is useless and serves no purpose whatsoever, other than to lead treasure hunters on wild-goose chases. The author of the map would not need it, and if it is as coded as you say, it would not be helpful to anyone else. Its only purpose for existing must be as a deceptive ploy to swindle investors into thinking they are buying into the location of a rich mine/mines. Just another trick to get a grubstake and then fade away into the annals of history.

 

[markmar]

markmar -- You're a true pro at "thinking out of the box." As always, this post of your's is another adventure in an alternative world, where nothing is as it really is. I guess, because your viewpoints are consistently a departure from the norm, that's why I give your posts a "like" and always will do so. I'm a believer in such things as bigfoot and a vanished civilization on Mars, so radical interpretations of treasure maps fit in with my mindset with no problems. I give you "five stars" for this post, as it stimulates thought in other directions. Well done.

From what you've written above, I must maintain my position that the Gonzales Map is truly a worthless piece of paper, more than deserving to be tossed into the trash bin and forever to be forgotten. As a map it is useless and serves no purpose whatsoever, other than to lead treasure hunters on wild-goose chases. The author of the map would not need it, and if it is as coded as you say, it would not be helpful to anyone else. Its only purpose for existing must be as a deceptive ploy to swindle investors into thinking they are buying into the location of a rich mine/mines. Just another trick to get a grubstake and then fade away into the annals of history.

The map wasn't made by Gonzales but by his father Manuel Peralta. Manuel gave instructions to Gonzales how to read the map, so was not worthless for Gonzales. Would been worthless only for the other people who didn't know the interpretations. People from that era who used to kill for or to steal Spanish/Mexicans map, soon or later understood the maps were useless and didn't lead to any mine or treasure, and this because the maps were coded.
People still lying today how they found mines or treasure using Spanish/Mexican maps, but I can tell you for certain, they don't know even how to keep the maps in their hands.
So, yes, all the Spanish/Mexican maps which are exposed to the public around the world, are worthless because every map has, beside the common treasure codes, an unique code which belongs to the map maker, in regards to keep the map coded even for those who are familiar with the treasure codes.

 

[markmar]

skyhawk1252 wrote : " I've read portions of Barry Storm's book, "Thunder Gods Gold", and just enough of it not to believe any of what he wrote. Storm was too desperate for cash for me to give him any credibility."

Actually, Barry Storm ( John Clemenson ) in his book " Thunder Gods Gold " , wrote some very accurate clues for some stories, with some to change only their location, maybe not intentionally but because was the way he has heard them, or wanted to tie them to his area of interest.

For example:
In the Wagoner story, he described exactly where the gold ledge was/is, enough to follow Wagoner's map after the passing by Picacho Butte to the west, but not following an existing trail then and now, at least for the longest part of the route.
The clues for the Two Soldiers story are accurate about the vein and where it's located on the mountainside, except the region in the mountains.The same concept was written for the most clues of his stories.
He also kept some clues hidden from public, like in the Jenkins lost gold ledge story, where he knew exactly where Jenkins picnic camp was and didn't write about, and also knew the mountain Jenkins was looking for the ledge ( allegedly to take a better view of WN ), region which later was his favorite in his research. Just for the sake of the discussion, the Jenkins lost gold ledge/mine it's not any else than NP mine, found in the 1980's.

Barry Storm clues are very difficult to understand if someone don't have a faint image about the regions of the mines and treasures he wrote about, for this many people believe his writings were a BS. They are not BS but a treasure of info if used in collaboration with other sources.

 

[markmar]

Skyhawk1252
Just little more out of topic, with your prmission of course. I want to show a GE image of the Antelope mine/diggings that Barry Storm wrote in his book " Thunder Gods Gold " at page #87. You can see the antelope shape in the orange oval and the gleaming pillar in the blue circle ( between anteope legs ). The same spot was mistakenly named as " Sheep mine " by Edgar Cayce while was " reading " on the LDM. I found the spot by decrypting the codes written on the Peralta-Fish map in regards to a hidden mine ( escondido abiso ) which it's not depicted on the map but someone have to find it by using a junction of two lines, something like in the Salazar survey map or something like in the Gonzales map of this thread.
Enjoy

 

[SPARTANOC]

Hello to all here (or where every you all are by now)

I'm hitting this thread a tad late (2 years late), but after reading through it, I felt I might give my 2 cents worth.

With regards to the Gonzales map and the theories seen here; may I introduce a different theory? Taking in both Markmar's comments and Skyhawk1251, I felt both of you had good intel and observations, which interestingly enough - kicked in my thoughts. Maybe I'm way off, crazy or just hungry for 'gold', but here is my assessment as to WHERE the Gonzales map is pointing to. Hear me out.

Attached is my guess as to WHERE the Mine is according to the Gonzales map. I'm keeping things simple, as I've found that simplicity is the best way to go - most of the times. There was no "working" of codes on my part and I took things in proportion to where WN is located in opposition of 4 Peaks - which has a line up of N-NW. The ONLY canyon that matches the map, in my opinion, is down Music Canyon southbound - ending at the entrance of Bluff Springs Canyon. In this area, the canyon splits just like the image on the Gonzales map. I believe the (4) X's are representing Springs in the area and the word MINA is actually the Mine itself. Located at the coordinates of: 33.4438296 -111.3297780, you'll see what looks like a portal, though very tough to be 100% sure, but looks like a possibility. The red X represents the springs in the area and the Blue circle represents the mine (Mina).

-Spartanoc