The Merchant Royal was in port in Cadiz when it learned of a Spanish ship that was overburdened with this treasure.

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: Michael-Robert.

: Michael-Robert.

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Crow

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Special thanks Micheal Robert for starting an interesting thread.
.Nothing is easy in the treasure hunting game! There is no such thing as easy money!

Land or sea you will be challenged one way or another. friendships and agreements can be broken. You exist in a world of sharks, not wearing an eye patch and cutlass but brief cases lap tops and mobile telephones.

Bray was his own worst enemy. He should never had accepted the cash payment. if he wanted to maintain the 7.5% cut on a successful discovery. Finding the right grouping of people with time, experience and resources and right ethics, a challenge in itself.

bray tried to recoup his cost, time and effort in providing information. You either sell your information and walk away or tied yourself to the buyer for a percentage. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Yet like some weird masochist. I keep punishing myself. I am retired or so I keep deluding myself. Retired 17 years before official retirement age. No need to work ever.

Yet it seeps into your soul amigo. Like a heroin addict ya just need one more hit.

Thanks again for the interesting thread. There is another shipwreck in region that is very valuable dating from 1667 in the region. Brought to my attention from another person who use to post here. Another hopeless case retired yet not retired.

Cheers Crow
:icon_thumright:
 

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: Michael-Robert.

: Michael-Robert.

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ARC

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Odyssey Marine Exploration, Inc. v. Unidentified, Shipwrecked Vessel:

The bread-ith.. crumb-eth... ah plenty-eth

Found one ... went way down several rabbit holes starting at the end of this link... into the coin case study etc.

So.... no shortage of bread crumbs out there.
 

OP
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: Michael-Robert.

: Michael-Robert.

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Special thanks Micheal Robert for starting an interesting thread.
.Nothing is easy in the treasure hunting game! There is no such thing as easy money!

Land or sea you will be challenged one way or another. friendships and agreements can be broken. You exist in a world of sharks, not wearing an eye patch and cutlass but brief cases lap tops and mobile telephones.

Bray was his own worst enemy. He should never had accepted the cash payment. if he wanted to maintain the 7.5% cut on a successful discovery. Finding the right grouping of people with time, experience and resources and right ethics, a challenge in itself.

bray tried to recoup his cost, time and effort in providing information. You either sell your information and walk away or tied yourself to the buyer for a percentage. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Yet like some weird masochist. I keep punishing myself. I am retired or so I keep deluding myself. Retired 17 years before official retirement age. No need to work ever.

Yet it seeps into your soul amigo. Like a heroin addict ya just need one more hit.

Thanks again for the interesting thread. There is another shipwreck in region that is very valuable dating from 1667 in the region. Brought to my attention from another person who use to post here. Another hopeless case retired yet not retired.

Cheers Crow
:icon_thumright:
AHH yes, there is to much unsolved data in our heads. Maps, stories, clues, etc etc ...
The Hunt is part of the treasure. The History is part of the treasure. Just being able just to solve the riddles are part of the treasure. And then, yes, there is always the reward at the end, TREASURES.

I have so much unfinished business in the hunts that have not come to fruition yet, how can one truly retire? Its in your: blood, head, soul..... For me, I hesitate to leave unfished business on the table.
Hanging around a group friends and telling tales of adventure is treasure in its self. To live a full life that people write books about and maybe even a movie two makes one wonder.

My two that wont let me retire are "two" complete treasure that never made it to the Galleons. Both on Land.

One I've discussed on here with the amigos. The Josephine de la Martinique.

The other, well, I keep that with myself for now.

Regards, Amigos
///End///
WayBill Josephina de le Martinique.jpg
 

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treasurediver

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Thank you Michael Robert and Crow, for the interesting stories.

Treasure stories are like "Fishermen Stories", they all need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Like the sentence below:

sank in 1641. The Merchant Royal carried 50 tons of gold.

During the 17th century there just wasn't that much gold in one place. The treasure galleons of that time had little gold on board. Look at the "Conception" 1641? (Burt Webber) "Atocha" etc.

The big gold finds of Brazil by 1700 changed the situation.

Mel Fisher used to say "Money talks and bullshit walks"

I think they call it "Due diligence". Before investing one has to do the homework. Today it is called a "solid business plan" with data that can be verified.
However, treasure hunting is not a business. It is a dream.
 

ARC

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Thank you Michael Robert and Crow, for the interesting stories.

Treasure stories are like "Fishermen Stories", they all need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Like the sentence below:

sank in 1641. The Merchant Royal carried 50 tons of gold.

During the 17th century there just wasn't that much gold in one place. The treasure galleons of that time had little gold on board. Look at the "Conception" 1641? (Burt Webber) "Atocha" etc.

The big gold finds of Brazil by 1700 changed the situation.

Mel Fisher used to say "Money talks and bullshit walks"

I think they call it "Due diligence". Before investing one has to do the homework. Today it is called a "solid business plan" with data that can be verified.
However, treasure hunting is not a business. It is a dream.

Sept. 30, Lond[on].

I suppose you have understood of the loss of the Royal Merchant coming into our road, which is the greatest that was ever sustained in one ship, being worth 400,000l. at least. The merchants of Antwerp will be the greatest losers, for she had in her belonging to them 300,000l. in bullion; if so be the Infante Cardinal lose not upon it Flanders for want of money to pay the soldiers.

– 'Charles I – volume 484: September 1641', Calendar of State Papers Domestic: Charles I, 1641–3 (1887), pp. 114–129
 

Smithbrown

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The Venetians claim she was carrying silver:
October 18 1641.

268. Gio. Giustinian, Venetian Ambassador in England, to the Doge and Senate.

The merchants of this mart are greatly perturbed by the wreck in English waters of a ship which was bringing from Spain to these shores a cargo of 300,000l. sterling in silver, as well as spices and goods worth quite as much.

Senato, Secreta. Dispacci, Inghilterra. Venetian Archives.

Calendar of State Papers Relating To English Affairs in the Archives of Venice, Volume 25, 1640-1642

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-state-papers/venice/vol25/pp221-231
 

Crow

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The Venetians claim she was carrying silver:
October 18 1641.

268. Gio. Giustinian, Venetian Ambassador in England, to the Doge and Senate.

The merchants of this mart are greatly perturbed by the wreck in English waters of a ship which was bringing from Spain to these shores a cargo of 300,000l. sterling in silver, as well as spices and goods worth quite as much.

Senato, Secreta. Dispacci, Inghilterra. Venetian Archives.

Calendar of State Papers Relating To English Affairs in the Archives of Venice, Volume 25, 1640-1642

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/cal-state-papers/venice/vol25/pp221-231
Good find!

In the foot notes The Royal Merchant, Capt. Limberi (?), with 180 chests of reals, 500 bars of silver and gold and jewels worth over a "million of gold." Salvetti on the 18th Oct. Brit. Mus. Add. MSS. 27962 I. Cal. S.P. Dom., 1641-3, page 128.

Crow
 

treasurediver

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Now we are talking!!!!

400,000 pound sterling of silver is about 100 tons of silver.
How much did the Atocha carry? about 50 tons of silver?
Or the Concepcion? about the same?
The Maravillas a lot more, maybe 80 tons of silver?
These were fairly big galleons.

50 tons of gold would be the equivalent of about 800 to 900 tons of silver. About 9 times the value or 3,600,000.
50 pounds weight of gold would make much more sense than 50 tons of gold.

But, we, the treasure hunters like to say "a thousand gold and silver coins", even if there were 10 gold and 990 silver coins.

How big was that fish again?

Anyway any big fish story is a good story. Even the one that got away.

Lets hear some more stories. When you run out of stories, I will tell you some of mine. But for now, I will let you sell your fish.
I don't want to steal your thunder. Who's words are these?
 

treasurediver

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Good find!

In the foot notes The Royal Merchant, Capt. Limberi (?), with 180 chests of reals, 500 bars of silver and gold and jewels worth over a "million of gold." Salvetti on the 18th Oct. Brit. Mus. Add. MSS. 27962 I. Cal. S.P. Dom., 1641-3, page 128.

Crow
So that would be about 10 tons of Reals and 16 tons of silver bars. That would would make sense.
The Atocha had about 1000 silver bars and maybe a similar amount of about 360,000 Pieces of Eight.

Wasn't the money of the Merchant Royal destined to pay an army? Certainly not the gold and jewels which were probably private property and vague estimates.
 

treasurediver

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Treasure diver- my quotes says 300,000 pounds sterling, not 400,000. No wonder the tales get more and more exaggerated!
Yes, 300,000 and 400,000 have been mentioned several times in the "old" media. Still reasonable values. Probably still (old) media hyped.

Media hype and disinformation are thousands of years old. Even fact checking was faked thousands of years ago.
An interesting read is the Chinese book about the 37 stratagems for deceiving the enemy.
The enemy in war, the enemy in financial power struggle etc.
Financial /economical power struggle in old Europe was ever present.
 

Old Bookaroo

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Hello Bookaroo

Good question.

The general consensus is The broad arrow was used in England (and later Britain), apparently from the early 14th century, and more widely from the 16th century, to mark objects purchased from the monarch's money, or to indicate government property.

It only became an official compulsory mark of government property as I understand it in 1661 for British navy and government after that date. Shortage of ship masts in Europe led to England's Broad Arrow Policy in 1691, whereby pines 24 inches or more in diameter within 3 miles of water were blazed with the mark of the broad arrow; such trees were to be reserved for used in the Royal Navy. The term King's Pine originated from this policy.

My guess if the anchor had broad arrow stamped on it. It would exclude it from being from the Merchant royal?
The type of anchor appears to be a Kedge Admiralty anchor.
View attachment 2129723


View attachment 2129722

Since the merchant Royal was private ship and sank in 1641 predating the English Civil war 1642 to 1651. The anchor has not been conclusively proven to be with in the date date range, just yet. just media hype that is the anchor from the vessel?

Crow

Like a cannon, an anchor is a clue - evidence, but hardly proof. This one doesn't have the iron stock - based on The Homewrecker, it probably had a wood stock that rotted away man years ago.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo
 

Crow

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Like a cannon, an anchor is a clue - evidence, but hardly proof. This one doesn't have the iron stock - based on The Homewrecker, it probably had a wood stock that rotted away man years ago.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo
Yes identification of anchor cannot determine and age of wreck alone. Nor cannons. It is combination artifacts that can help bring up and effect date range.

Crow
 

ARC

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Yes identification of anchor cannot determine and age of wreck alone. Nor cannons. It is combination artifacts that can help bring up and effect date range.

Crow
Correct.... anchors can tell their own story at times... so can cannon... there are many cases where these don't match at all... beings they were perhaps a "retrofit" ...
Only the multiple clues combined... OR.... Repeat... OR.....
The ships bell is found... WITH the ships name... then and usually only then will a single item solve the riddle.
Sometimes its the cargo alone.... like 20 tons of lead ingots for example... and known wreck of such cargo was known to be in that general location at the time of sinking.
 

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