The Merchant Royal was in port in Cadiz when it learned of a Spanish ship that was overburdened with this treasure.

[Crow]

So that would be about 10 tons of Reals and 16 tons of silver bars. That would would make sense.
The Atocha had about 1000 silver bars and maybe a similar amount of about 360,000 Pieces of Eight.

Wasn't the money of the Merchant Royal destined to pay an army? Certainly not the gold and jewels which were probably private property and vague estimates.

Good point you answered in around about way my question why odyssey backed out any agreement with Bray. With his 7.5 % of any treasure found.

If we set all; media hype aside If we take your below estimate

So that would be about 10 tons of Reals and 16 tons of silver bars. That would would make sense.

* Side note Old crow had a hot math teacher who used to tease leaning over. whoa I did not learn to get past one and two. So my math here is basic. Apologies in advance.

if look at commodity value 26 tons of silver at 2000 pound to a US Ton. 52000 pounds of silver melt value.

Now add the gold 50 pounds for example. if calculate 75% purity and in 50 troy pounds.

Roughly speaking you would have about 18 million in melt value.

It's fair to say that deep sea shipwreck exploration is eye wateringly expensive.

The cost of running a research ship such as the Odyssey Explorer is about $35,000 (£22,000; €28,000) per day, including staff. Those boats can get through five to 10 tonnes of fuel per day at $1,000 per tonne.

*note those above figures and from article below.

treasure hunting business

You can be onboard for six months to a year to do a proper exploration.

If we calculate for 6 months to find and recover the wreck based on 182 days operation .

If we take in account fuel usage 5- 10 tons a day . for example met half way say 7 tons per day usage by 1000 dollars = 7000 dollars per day. X that 182 days = 1274000.USD about 1.3 million.

Running cost crew. supplies and equipment, 35000 a day as quoted for Odyssey Explorer. 6370000 USD 6.3 million over 6 months

cost 6444000. 6.4 MILLION Not taking into account any legal wrangling. So if we go as per commodity salvage agreement based on the SS Gairsoppa' 80 percent to the salvors and 20 percent to UK.

18 million melt value. minis 20% cut to the British Government.
about 1.45 million leaves 16.55 million for the salvors minus 6.4 million operation costs. So they in theory could make about 10 million at melt value.

That is ball park figure based on Odyssey operating costs at the time of SS Gairsoppa operation. not taking in account inflation we have at present.

So for an investors for six million invested to find and salvage survive legal challenges, sell at melt value your return for every dollar in vested you would get about 1.60 return. Then that 60 cent profit will be taxed.

So not a great return for high risks involved.

* Please note That estimate is based on melt commodity value. As the coins as collectors items can be worth much much more than melt value. But sad fact is the market is flood with pieces of eight and its take years and years to sell coinage. Mel fishers family is still selling his. So higher returns could take decades and decades to get a bigger return on such an investment.

In my case as an investor and my age I would be long dead before I would reap the benefits of such a return.

Treasurediver: I get your point. but I Beg to differ a little about your about your comment about not being a business hunting being a dream? I add that you have view these projects "as a business venture" and if the sum and risk far out way the returns then its not worth the investment.

Crow

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[Old Bookaroo]

Correct.... anchors can tell their own story at times... so can cannon... there are many cases where these don't match at all... beings they were perhaps a "retrofit" ...
Only the multiple clues combined... OR.... Repeat... OR.....

The ships bell is found... WITH the ships name... then and usually only then will a single item solve the riddle.

Sometimes its the cargo alone.... like 20 tons of lead ingots for example... and known wreck of such cargo was known to be in that general location at the time of sinking.

If one can find the Official Number carved on the deck beam of a US vessel, that is a positive identification. You are correct about cargo - in the case of the Spanish galleons, if a recovered item (such as a silver bar) matches the known manifest, that's a positive ID. I've researched a Lake Michigan wreck that was found with a cargo of brick, matching the US government records of a vessel lost in that location with that cargo.

Cannon and anchors can easily be transferred from one ship to another.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[treasurediver]

Good point you answered in around about way my question why odyssey backed out any agreement with Bray. With his 7.5 % of any treasure found.

If we set all; media hype aside If we take your below estimate


* Side note Old crow had a hot math teacher who used to tease leaning over. whoa I did not learn to get past one and two. So my math here is basic. Apologies in advance.

if look at commodity value 26 tons of silver at 2000 pound to a US Ton. 52000 pounds of silver melt value.

View attachment 2130033
Now add the gold 50 pounds for example. if calculate 75% purity and in 50 troy pounds.

View attachment 2130035
Roughly speaking you would have about 18 million in melt value.

It's fair to say that deep sea shipwreck exploration is eye wateringly expensive.

The cost of running a research ship such as the Odyssey Explorer is about $35,000 (£22,000; €28,000) per day, including staff. Those boats can get through five to 10 tonnes of fuel per day at $1,000 per tonne.

*note those above figures and from article below.

treasure hunting business

You can be onboard for six months to a year to do a proper exploration.

If we calculate for 6 months to find and recover the wreck based on 182 days operation .

If we take in account fuel usage 5- 10 tons a day . for example met half way say 7 tons per day usage by 1000 dollars = 7000 dollars per day. X that 182 days = 1274000.USD about 1.3 million.

Running cost crew. supplies and equipment, 35000 a day as quoted for Odyssey Explorer. 6370000 USD 6.3 million over 6 months

cost 6444000. 6.4 MILLION Not taking into account any legal wrangling. So if we go as per commodity salvage agreement based on the SS Gairsoppa' 80 percent to the salvors and 20 percent to UK.

18 million melt value. minis 20% cut to the British Government.
about 1.45 million leaves 16.55 million for the salvors minus 6.4 million operation costs. So they in theory could make about 10 million at melt value.

That is ball park figure based on Odyssey operating costs at the time of SS Gairsoppa operation. not taking in account inflation we have at present.

So for an investors for six million invested to find and salvage survive legal challenges, sell at melt value your return for every dollar in vested you would get about 1.60 return. Then that 60 cent profit will be taxed.

So not a great return for high risks involved.

* Please note That estimate is based on melt commodity value. As the coins as collectors items can be worth much much more than melt value. But sad fact is the market is flood with pieces of eight and its take years and years to sell coinage. Mel fishers family is still selling his. So higher returns could take decades and decades to get a bigger return on such an investment.

In my case as an investor and my age I would be long dead before I would reap the benefits of such a return.

Treasurediver: I get your point. but I Beg to differ a little about your about your comment about not being a business hunting being a dream? I add that you have view these projects "as a business venture" and if the sum and risk far out way the returns then its not worth the investment.

Crow

Well said. I fully agree.
Of course, many books could be written, going into all the details.
But, maybe we should just do that right here: go into some of the details.
The devil is in the details.
For example: The legal ramifications: We can see the problems that Odyssey had.
Or, the weather: Offshore work is exposed to the weather. Even when we chose the best weather season, there are always surprises that cause costly delays.
I can tell about many, many instances that I experienced myself, but we can also analyze known examples. It can be fun to look at mistakes others made. It is really useful to compare the mistakes of others with the mistakes of our own.

Is treasure hunting a dream? My 70 years of experience in treasure hunting confirms that.
Can a dream be turned into a business? Just look at Mel Fisher, he did that.
Only a billionaire can afford to search for a legendary deep-sea shipwreck, but anybody can dream about it.
Only a fool will try to follow his dream, but it can be so much fun doing it.

 

[Crow]

Well said. I fully agree.
Of course, many books could be written, going into all the details.
But, maybe we should just do that right here: go into some of the details.
The devil is in the details.
For example: The legal ramifications: We can see the problems that Odyssey had.
Or, the weather: Offshore work is exposed to the weather. Even when we chose the best weather season, there are always surprises that cause costly delays.
I can tell about many, many instances that I experienced myself, but we can also analyze known examples. It can be fun to look at mistakes others made. It is really useful to compare the mistakes of others with the mistakes of our own.

Is treasure hunting a dream? My 70 years of experience in treasure hunting confirms that.
Can a dream be turned into a business? Just look at Mel Fisher, he did that.
Only a billionaire can afford to search for a legendary deep-sea shipwreck, but anybody can dream about it.
Only a fool will try to follow his dream, but it can be so much fun doing it.

Better to be the fool that follows their dreams amigo. Than the fool those who never follows their dreams. I have cousins back in Ireland still living in rented apartments, still living week to week, welfare check to welfare check. Miserable hating their lives waiting for god.

My side of the ,family philosophy was different make the bast--d work his ass off and hunt you down. We emigrated and did every crap job every one else thought it was beneath them. We was not just on the bottom amigo? But some where below it. Not a good place to be because crap flows downhill. I worked my way up out of the sewer line of life.

Everyone makes mistakes amigo it is sign that you are only human. It should not be seen as failure but a lesson yet to be learned? I cannot count the amount of times I make mistakes? Perhaps 99 times out of hundred. Yet there is always one that counts amigo?

Each failure should be seen as lesson to be learned. Some how after all of the disasters, misadventures and all human wreckage left behind, some how I have come out way in front. I retired 20 year early, I Independently wealthy, I travel all over the globe. Own multiple properties. Shares and other investments. Some how I crawled out of the viper pit of humanity unscathed while others crashed and burned around me.

And there was Three things I leaned along the the way. One Never trust any one. Two: Never deal with lawyers and governments. Three: And never ever admit to anything that might incriminate you.

Crow

 

[treasurediver]

Better to be the fool that follows their dreams amigo. Than the fool those who never follows their dreams. I have cousins back in Ireland still living in rented apartments, still living week to week, welfare check to welfare check. Miserable hating their lives waiting for god.

My side of the ,family philosophy was different make the bast--d work his ass off and hunt you down. We emigrated and did every crap job every one else thought it was beneath them. We was not just on the bottom amigo? But some where below it. Not a good place to be because crap flows downhill. I worked my way up out of the sewer line of life.

Everyone makes mistakes amigo it is sign that you are only human. It should not be seen as failure but a lesson yet to be learned? I cannot count the amount of times I make mistakes? Perhaps 99 times out of hundred. Yet there is always one that counts amigo?

Each failure should be seen as lesson to be learned. Some how after all of the disasters, misadventures and all human wreckage left behind, some how I have come out way in front. I retired 20 year early, I Independently wealthy, I travel all over the globe. Own multiple properties. Shares and other investments. Some how I crawled out of the viper pit of humanity unscathed while others crashed and burned around me.

And there was Three things I leaned along the the way. One Never trust any one. Two: Never deal with lawyers and governments. Three: And never ever admit to anything that might incriminate you.

Crow

I hear you and you deserve my respect.
We all would like to hear your stories.

I will try to add some of my stories in between. From a different part of the world.

1973, we sit around a camp fire by the side of the river. Most of the sounds of the night are drowned by the crackling of the fire and the sound of the waterfall nearby. Like always in the tropics, here, in the jungle, the night came suddenly and we had to stop working.

Now we are hungry. Impatient to fill our stomachs with whatever food our cook had brewing in the big pot hanging over the fire. Probably some bushmeat. We don’t ask. We will eat what we get. Diving in the strong current of the river for many hours, rolling boulders out of the way of the nozzle of the suction pump is back breaking work.

We ate the 20 foot long Anaconda in 2 days. I don’t even remember what it tasted like. It was food. It gave us the strength to continue digging.

A few days ago we had found the first diamond. After months of preparations and weeks of digging. When I first saw the diamond glittering in the center of the dark gravel, it seemed to be the size of a quail egg. The excitement was overpowering.

Later, on the diamond scale, it proved to be 0,35 carats. But it was the first proof that we could find diamonds in this river. An unforgettable moment.

Today, 50 years later, while writing this, it still makes my heart beat faster.

Sorry, I talk too much. I wanted to tell of the stories we were exchanging during these evenings.

Stories of dreams, of treasure, of plans. Should I?

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

I hear you and you deserve my respect.
We all would like to hear your stories.

I will try to add some of my stories in between. From a different part of the world.

1973, we sit around a camp fire by the side of the river. Most of the sounds of the night are drowned by the crackling of the fire and the sound of the waterfall nearby. Like always in the tropics, here, in the jungle, the night came suddenly and we had to stop working.

Now we are hungry. Impatient to fill our stomachs with whatever food our cook had brewing in the big pot hanging over the fire. Probably some bushmeat. We don’t ask. We will eat what we get. Diving in the strong current of the river for many hours, rolling boulders out of the way of the nozzle of the suction pump is back breaking work.

We ate the 20 foot long Anaconda in 2 days. I don’t even remember what it tasted like. It was food. It gave us the strength to continue digging.

A few days ago we had found the first diamond. After months of preparations and weeks of digging. When I first saw the diamond glittering in the center of the dark gravel, it seemed to be the size of a quail egg. The excitement was overpowering.

Later, on the diamond scale, it proved to be 0,35 carats. But it was the first proof that we could find diamonds in this river. An unforgettable moment.

Today, 50 years later, while writing this, it still makes my heart beat faster.

Sorry, I talk too much. I wanted to tell of the stories we were exchanging during these evenings.

Stories of dreams, of treasure, of plans. Should I?

YOU MAY , post here instead of starting a new thread.

 

[treasurediver]

YOU MAY , post here instead of starting a new thread.

Thank you Michael-Robert

Ah, I forgot to say the most important part. The name of the river is “Rio Do Sonho” This translates to “The River Of The Dream”. One of the rare places on earth where colored diamonds are found.

50 years later one could ask: What happened to the dreams and plans? A lot actually. Many stories of fabulous, immensely rich shipwrecks. Some found, others not. Some of us followed their dreams. Funny, really, when you consider that we were thousands of miles from the sea, deep in the wilderness.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

I hear you and you deserve my respect.
We all would like to hear your stories.

I will try to add some of my stories in between. From a different part of the world.

1973, we sit around a camp fire by the side of the river. Most of the sounds of the night are drowned by the crackling of the fire and the sound of the waterfall nearby. Like always in the tropics, here, in the jungle, the night came suddenly and we had to stop working.

Now we are hungry. Impatient to fill our stomachs with whatever food our cook had brewing in the big pot hanging over the fire. Probably some bushmeat. We don’t ask. We will eat what we get. Diving in the strong current of the river for many hours, rolling boulders out of the way of the nozzle of the suction pump is back breaking work.

We ate the 20 foot long Anaconda in 2 days. I don’t even remember what it tasted like. It was food. It gave us the strength to continue digging.

A few days ago we had found the first diamond. After months of preparations and weeks of digging. When I first saw the diamond glittering in the center of the dark gravel, it seemed to be the size of a quail egg. The excitement was overpowering.

Later, on the diamond scale, it proved to be 0,35 carats. But it was the first proof that we could find diamonds in this river. An unforgettable moment.

Today, 50 years later, while writing this, it still makes my heart beat faster.

Sorry, I talk too much. I wanted to tell of the stories we were exchanging during these evenings.

Stories of dreams, of treasure, of plans. Should I?

Diamonds. Danger. Death.

Are you familiar with the life (and writings) of Fred Cornell?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[treasurediver]

Diamonds. Danger. Death.

Are you familiar with the life (and writings) of Fred Cornell?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

Thank you old Bookaroo.
No, I don't know Fred Cornell. I will look for his writings. Do you have a shortcut?

Diamonds in the jungle of Brazil.
How did I get there? Did I get lost?
Ah, yes, we had found our first diamond.
The spirits are high. D. tells us about his dream about a shipwreck. His next project. The Wakama. Supposed to carry a lot of valuables, including 80 pounds of diamonds.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Thank you old Bookaroo.
No, I don't know Fred Cornell. I will look for his writings. Do you have a shortcut?

Diamonds in the jungle of Brazil.
How did I get there? Did I get lost?
Ah, yes, we had found our first diamond.
The spirits are high. D. tells us about his dream about a shipwreck. His next project. The Wakama. Supposed to carry a lot of valuables, including 80 pounds of diamonds.

Fred Cornell was a South African diamond hunter who became obsessed (I do not use that word lightly - see Nostromo) with the "Bushman's Paradise" - a lost valley of diamonds. His Glamour of Prospecting is a very entertaining book.

He also wrote several articles for Wide World Magazine about his adventures. Immediately after leaving his most recent ms. at the office of that magazine, he was killed in a London traffic accident, riding in a motorcycle sidecar (an earie echo of the death of T.E. Lawrence). A sad end for a man who spent so much time risking his life in the African wild.

He deserves to be better known - his story is singular.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[treasurediver]

Fred Cornell was a South African diamond hunter who became obsessed (I do not use that word lightly - see Nostromo) with the "Bushman's Paradise" - a lost valley of diamonds. His Glamour of Prospecting is a very entertaining book.

He also wrote several articles for Wide World Magazine about his adventures. Immediately after leaving his most recent ms. at the office of that magazine, he was killed in a London traffic accident, riding in a motorcycle sidecar (an earie echo of the death of T.E. Lawrence). A sad end for a man who spent so much time risking his life in the African wild.

He deserves to be better known - his story is singular.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

Thank you Bookaroo.
I agree Cornell deserves to be better known. Such reading is dangerous though. It generates a subconscious longing to explore the unexplored.

https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/21899 RIP VAN WINKLE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Carruthers_Cornell

Looking at the wiki article, I seem to vaguely remember reading something of that before driving to the Namaqualand and working in Lüderitz in the country that is now Namibia.

Well, everything is connected through time.

1966-1967, working as a diver in the offshore diamond mining operations off the coast of Namibia I acquired the knowledge that turned out to be very useful, for setting up a small diamond mining operation in the interior of Brazil a few years later.

Then, I needed money to build the expedition boat I wanted, to go searching for shipwrecks. Dangerous work paid well. The boat was completed and soon proved to be a wrong choice for searching and working on shipwrecks.

6 years later I was building another expedition boat. The third one. This time I tried to apply the lessons learned through the mistakes of the first 2 boats.

In the meantime, I had found my first treasure galleon with the second boat.

As I said above, we all had our dreams. My plan was to complete my 72ft expedition dive boat and dig up the treasure of my treasure galleon.

My dream was to have the freedom to sail anywhere, whenever I felt like it, to find the shipwrecks wherever they are. Little did I know that this boat would eventually take me to the Bahamas, where I happened on the trail of the biggest, most searched treasure in the world.

 

[Crow]

Thank you old Bookaroo.
No, I don't know Fred Cornell. I will look for his writings. Do you have a shortcut?

Diamonds in the jungle of Brazil.
How did I get there? Did I get lost?
Ah, yes, we had found our first diamond.
The spirits are high. D. tells us about his dream about a shipwreck. His next project. The Wakama. Supposed to carry a lot of valuables, including 80 pounds of diamonds.

So did your friend ever retrieve 80 pounds of diamonds?

Crow

 

[Crow]

In August 27, 1939 the vessel arrived in Rio de Janeiro harbor commanded by Kapt. Bernhard Schacht. In September 1st, 1939 Germay invaded Poland starting World War II. Because of the naval blockade imposed by the allied, the ship remained in port until February 12, 1940 when se sat sail at 00:00h lights off, carrying a cargo of war supplies including a 150 kg piece of quartz crystal and 10 tons of nickel.

As far as I know I never heard of diamonds on her? the nickel is worth 15,721.50 per ton by 10 tons 157210500 by today's stand not really worth an effort salvage .

Not to say that it wasn't in troubled times gems do get smuggled. Contempory sources make no mention of it.

There is another very valuable ship along the coast of Brazil? i cannot remember the name?

Crow

 

[treasurediver]

So did your friend ever retrieve 80 pounds of diamonds?

Crow

He found the wreck.
Today, with all the modern navigation instruments, people have little understanding how difficult it was to locate and return to shipwrecks many miles from shore, when You only had a sextant and a compass to define your position.
After many dives, the wreck lies in 55m depth, only few valuables were recovered. This included a fair amount of a precious stone called Rubellite.
https://bengems.com/en/stones/rubellite/
The largest crystal was something like 2600 carats.
I made a few dives myself.
There were some large Rock Crystals as you mentioned, but they were damaged by the fire. The British cruiser had lobbed a few large caliber grenades into the castle of the Wakama, to speed up the sinking.
In 1940, Rock Crystal was used to produce the highest quality camera lenses.
D. got excellent documentation, but the ship is surrounded by a lot of mystery. In the end, a large salvage vessel came from Germany and dismantled the wreck.
As far as I know, no diamonds were found.
Could it be that the information about the box of precious stones Rubellite was distorted to become diamonds?

D.'s next target was a shipwreck from the time of WW1, with something like 11 tons of gold on board.

 

[KaiCor]

He found the wreck.
Today, with all the modern navigation instruments, people have little understanding how difficult it was to locate and return to shipwrecks many miles from shore, when You only had a sextant and a compass to define your position.
After many dives, the wreck lies in 55m depth, only few valuables were recovered. This included a fair amount of a precious stone called Rubellite.
https://bengems.com/en/stones/rubellite/
The largest crystal was something like 2600 carats.
I made a few dives myself.
There were some large Rock Crystals as you mentioned, but they were damaged by the fire. The British cruiser had lobbed a few large caliber grenades into the castle of the Wakama, to speed up the sinking.
In 1940, Rock Crystal was used to produce the highest quality camera lenses.
D. got excellent documentation, but the ship is surrounded by a lot of mystery. In the end, a large salvage vessel came from Germany and dismantled the wreck.
As far as I know, no diamonds were found.
Could it be that the information about the box of precious stones Rubellite was distorted to become diamonds?

D.'s next target was a shipwreck from the time of WW1, with something like 11 tons of gold on board.

I would also recommend that you try treasure hunting at online casinos where you can pay with MuchBetter - is a payment system that allows you to easily deposit and withdraw money from casinos. Give it a try, I like it!

They may have found diamonds, but they wrote what they wanted in the paperwork.

What ship with 11 tons of gold are you talking about? Where?

 

[Crow]

D.'s next target was a shipwreck from the time of WW1, with something like 11 tons of gold on board.

I love to hear about that one.

Crow

 

[Crow]

That shipwreck I am thinking of off the Brazilian coast? Its on the tip of my tongue and I can't just seem to remember it? It driving me nuts. Santa Elaina? or something?

it was story of shipwreck I was told 25 years ago when I was in Brazil.

Crow

 

[treasurediver]

D.'s next target was a shipwreck from the time of WW1, with something like 11 tons of gold on board.

I love to hear about that one.

Crow

This one is quite a story, but I feel I need to talk with D. before I make it public. Problem is: D. is now 92 years old. I last spoke with him on the phone about 3 years ago. He sounded just the same as many years ago and very exited about the wreck of the "Santa Rosa", a Portuguese galleon of 1726, also with many tons of gold on board as well as probably a lot of pebble sized diamonds.
He had a side-scan picture of the wreck site and was looking for key persons to help him with the salvage.

 

[treasurediver]

That shipwreck I am thinking of off the Brazilian coast? Its on the tip of my tongue and I can't just seem to remember it? It driving me nuts. Santa Elaina? or something?

it was story of shipwreck I was told 25 years ago when I was in Brazil.

Crow

Sant Elaina does not ring a bell.
We searched for the "Santa Clara" 1573-6. A Portuguese Carrack. D., Bob Marx and I. Using my, then (1979?) new boat.

 

[Blak bart]

Thank you Michael Robert and Crow, for the interesting stories.

Treasure stories are like "Fishermen Stories", they all need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Like the sentence below:

sank in 1641. The Merchant Royal carried 50 tons of gold.

During the 17th century there just wasn't that much gold in one place. The treasure galleons of that time had little gold on board. Look at the "Conception" 1641? (Burt Webber) "Atocha" etc.

The big gold finds of Brazil by 1700 changed the situation.

Mel Fisher used to say "Money talks and bullshit walks"

I think they call it "Due diligence". Before investing one has to do the homework. Today it is called a "solid business plan" with data that can be verified.
However, treasure hunting is not a business. It is a dream.

Fishermans stories huh 🤣🤣😂....its us fisherman that have found more than just a few treasures. If not for the fisherman many of the greatest wrecks would still be undiscovered.....I still fish with the grandson of Reggie roberts.....he's the fisherman who found the capitana of the 1733 fleet in 1938 !! Later he showed this wreck to art mkee and the whole modern day era of shipwreck salvage started !! Being a life long fisherman, and having found many many wreck of all ages in shallow, and deep water, I understand all to well the importance of us "poor fisherman" in the treasure world !!

Let me give you a couple examples. We have found wreck while trapping lobsters, and I've found a spanish wreck while longlineing. It's as easy as pulling gear and having a Chinese tea cup on 3 consecutive hooks.....obviously my gear is laying across exposed boxes of China on the bottom ..... well let's not give depths out....let's just say deep. By the spacing of my hooks, I'm able to get an estimate of width, and we are a fishing boat.....I have 120,000 $ side scan .....I can see the mound clear as day !!

I'm not gonna go crazy with stories here....the point is, fisherman find wrecks regularly, and often times over the years we end up identifying them through our catches, sonar, and even diving on them in my case. You boys know how to use an octopus to salvage a wreck? They are very intelligent and curios animals that have specific habits....one of which is removing man made objects from there shelter. We have been placing 2 traps on an unknown wreck for about 4 years now....it has a residential population of octopus, and they have been loading our traps with objects and treasure from this wreck. We put our traps here for silver ware.....silverware, pottery, and EOs are loaded in our traps each week, and probably have 35 pieces of sterling silverware 🍽 from this wreck over 4 years. All put in our traps by angry octopus......put a grain of salt on that and chew on it for awhile !!

This thread would be DOA, without the "fisherman snagged anchor" to speculate about !! Remember the little wreck "el cazador" yup....fisherman found it !! The only thing to wonder about fishermans stories is just how many you don't know about, just how much has been brought up without a word being said, just how many snags do we fish that have treasure, and just how many secret ops have gone on that no one sees or hears about ??

If you've fished in and on the water here in the islands, you've probably found something of importance to the so called "salvors" you think that no one ever snagged an artifact off the atocha main pile before it was found ?? Fisherman snags helped fisher find that pile....thats the unofficial story. That pile was covered in fishing gear.

If you guys think that the crew of that fishing boat hasn't been back to drag that site again you are mistaken.....they could have said nothing about that anchor.....like we do when we snag one. If there was rumor about merchant royal surrounding that anchor.....I would drag that site over and over until I knew for sure....fact of the matter is us fisherman know very well how many lost anchor ⚓️ are out there......that anchor could be one of thousands in that area !! We catch anchors every week, and get 2 or 3 older anchors every year.....most are photographed, and cut loose again.....some become so fouled in gear that they must be recovered to un tangle from our gear.....often I will dive the shallow numbers in the summer to check....this type of stuff has been going on with fisherman since the beginning, and will always continue in the islands regardless of permits and laws....you can't unfind something once you've seen it....its just what happens as a fisherman.

The importance of fishermans discoveries should never be taken lightly....