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Old Silver
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- #21
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I have thought about where that would put them (if true), but I don't know the exact rout they would have taken.
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I have thought about where that would put them (if true), but I don't know the exact rout they would have taken.
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Old Silver
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- #22
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I take it that they all traveled together for security, since they were transporting the treasure. 500 miles east would be a little less wild, I suppose. "Perilous enterprise" is what the Beale Papers called it.
TN_Guest1523
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I do believe that 500 miles east was the place called Independence . This place named after the Declaration Of Independence is just a no-brainer
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Old Silver
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- #24
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That could be the place.
TN_Guest1523
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Most Interesting !
The first steamboat up the Missouri River, the INDEPENDENCE, ran from St. Louis to the vicinity of the Chariton River as early as 1819.
Missouri River | steamboats.org
bigscoop
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Some real world numbers for you. I know some backpackers, speed hikers if you will, who over rough terrains can cover about 20 miles per day, these folks in peak physical condition and their bodies acclimated to the altitudes. Now compare this to thirty men who are not acclimated to the altitudes, who are carrying thousands of pounds of gold and silver with horses, ox, wagons, gear, etc., over these same rough terrains, their speed of travel being at least half of what these speed hikers is. This leaves your party covering about 10 miles per day, at best, this means that 500 miles would take them around 50 days travel, give or take a few.
Steamboats kept records, and pretty darn good ones considering that cargoes had to be inspected and logged at both ends. So how did the alleged Beale party avoid all of this? Just some more real world food for thought......
Steamboats kept records, and pretty darn good ones considering that cargoes had to be inspected and logged at both ends. So how did the alleged Beale party avoid all of this? Just some more real world food for thought......
TN_Guest1523
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inspected and logged, Interesting . So who would inspect a keelboat in 1819 or a steamboat in 1819 ? Coast Guard ?
TN_Guest1523
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The United States at this time was a loose confederation of states. The federal government was weak, and so regulating vessels, even for gaming statutes, was an imposition on States Rights. The Interstate Steamboat Commerce Commission was finally set up in 1838 to regulate steamboat traffic. Boiler inspections only began in 1852.
TN_Guest1523
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And the ones that did not keep records, or were payed to keep them off the books . And the fact that 1 ton of gold was 14.6x14.6x14.6 cube would not have been hard to hide . What would be the cargo that they would importing to mask the gold and silver is a better question at this time ?
bigscoop
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It wasn't like renting a car. In 1817-1821, steamboats on the big river didn't arrive and depart daily, my friend. In New Orleans, and elsewhere, ship/cargo inspections were conducted with routine. A Cube of gold? Try a cube of silver weighing a few thousand pounds as well. A steamboat is a convenient thought until one realizes that it wasn't actually quite so convenient.
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Old Silver
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- #31
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I think common sense tells us that they could have done a little better than 10 miles per day, but even if you do the math of 10 miles per day, that still gets them pretty close, at the outside, and pretty much right on target, at best. Do the math.
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Old Silver
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- #32
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According to the story, it looks like they would have traveled, on their first trip, somewhere between 100 and 200 days. So if you take the middle of that - 150 days, at 10 miles per day, that would put them 1500 miles down the road. Fact is, from Denver, Colorado to Montvale, Virginia (Buford's Tavern) is just a little over 1500 miles. Granted, they probably would have started a bit farther SW than Denver, but not much farther. Also granted that they were not traveling on an interstate. Still, we are in the ballpark, and that's with them traveling a mere 10 miles per day, which they could have done quite a bit better than, I think. Also, they could have had more than 200 days for the trip, as I'm using 150 days as an average.
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Old Silver
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- #33
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How many miles would a typical wagon train travel per day?
Wagons traveled between 10 and 20 miles per day, depending on weather, terrain, and other factors. Some wagon trains did not travel on Sunday while others did.
Frequently Asked Questions | The California Trail Interpretive Center
That would average to about 15 miles per day.
Wagons traveled between 10 and 20 miles per day, depending on weather, terrain, and other factors. Some wagon trains did not travel on Sunday while others did.
Frequently Asked Questions | The California Trail Interpretive Center
That would average to about 15 miles per day.
bigscoop
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"Wagon Trains" traveled over known and established routes, these also not coming around until much later in the 1800's, these were also well planned affairs VS "set of your pants - follow the buffalo into the wild blue yonder" free roaming unprepared adventures, such as the first adventure. Also, the typical "safe travel" season, depending on route and altitude and exact region, would have been from say, June through to September, with September even becoming questionable due to common early snows. Just saying.....
PS: I have friends that live in this very region, a landscape photographer who is always out and about, "until September" and often not until late June in some areas depending on the spring snow melt. Now then, he drives a lifted jeep and he has established roads and trails to travel, some of these even bringing his jeep to a crawl for considerable distances as he negotiates the rock, ditches, ravines, etc., etc., etc. Just saying.........so unless this fantastical mine was at low altitudes and easily accessible right off of an established trail......
PS: I have friends that live in this very region, a landscape photographer who is always out and about, "until September" and often not until late June in some areas depending on the spring snow melt. Now then, he drives a lifted jeep and he has established roads and trails to travel, some of these even bringing his jeep to a crawl for considerable distances as he negotiates the rock, ditches, ravines, etc., etc., etc. Just saying.........so unless this fantastical mine was at low altitudes and easily accessible right off of an established trail......
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Old Silver
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- #35
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The supposed Beale route, at least part of it, was a known and established route. Also, they had been over this rout before, so the 'seat of your pants - follow the buffalo into the wild blue yonder' thing is not exactly what it would have been. And who says the mine was not at lower altitudes and easily accessible right off of an established trail? Anyway, they could have had about 200 days to make the trip, so, by doing the math, you can see they would have had plenty of time to make the trip as presented in the story.
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Old Silver
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- #36
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And you have to remember, the trip started out in summer, not winter. By winter, they would have definitely been on an established route.
Actually, by winter, they were in Lynchburg, but by the time any snow would have started falling, they would have been on an established route, and probably most of the way home.
Actually, by winter, they were in Lynchburg, but by the time any snow would have started falling, they would have been on an established route, and probably most of the way home.
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bigscoop
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I think you're taking a lot for granted. Per example, on my youtube channel you'll find a deer cart with wheels, this thing is great for packing 200lbs of deer and also your gear out of the woods, for sure. However, have you ever tried to pull 200lbs on wheels up a fairly steep grade? Suddenly the load is multiplied several times over and the cart is pulling you instead of you pulling the cart. Horses, ox, just how many do you think it would take to pull ten loaded wagons up one of these steep grades? And just how long do you think you could work those animals like that as these grades continued to be encountered? In the winter season, did they simply let these grazing animals roam? Did they build a coral and a barn with enough stored hay to feed them all? Did they tether them to a tree to keep them from instinctively setting off in the search for food? And where did these men winter? Remember, not all of them returned. Did they build a type of barracks? Sleep and shelter in the mine? And the list goes on and on, those grand adventures in 1817-1821 having an "awful lot" to account for, to be sure. Just saying, things perhaps far more challenging and time consuming then perceived.
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bigscoop
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The problem with the proposed traveling details are the wagons themselves, no doubt that much better time and more manageable routes could have been realized without them. However, this then brings up the obvious complication involving the transporting of several thousand pounds of gold and silver out of the mountains and back to the east at the end of each season.
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Old Silver
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- #39
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I'm not taking things for granted, I'm just taking them for possible. Big difference.
You make it sound like you didn't know that people traveled west all the time in wagons. And they pulled way more than 2-3 hundred pounds, and probably more than 500 pounds. If the story is true, the Beale party wouldn't have had all that far to travel before reaching the plains. And they started in summer, not winter. You make it sound like they were traveling up Mount Everest in a blizzard for 1500 miles.
I think they would have acquired the work animals and carts/wagons, taken them to the mines, and loaded them up for the trip. At the end of the trip they would have sold the animals and gone back to the mines. When needed, they would have acquired more work animals and taken them to the work area to load and make another trip. They wouldn't have needed to keep the work animals at the mine site.
Where did they winter? I don't know. Where did any party ever winter when traveling out west by wagon? If this were not possible, then no trip in wagons to the west was ever possible. Having said this, how do we know that it wasn't the weather that eventually killed them? I believe someone in the story seemed to think that was a possibility.
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Old Silver
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- #40
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You're looking at thousands of pounds, when in fact it would have only been a few hundred pounds, if they used a few teams of work animals.
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