Trommel in ca question

[Goldwasher]

Victor, your "advice" was to cite a blm book about claim validity. If you knew anything at all you wouldn't have done so. As it was last updated before the new law that could cause an LEO to ticket an individual.

Besides that that book is about claim validity and does not speak to regulations in the scope of type of equipment that is legal or how to make sure you are legal in your activities.

You never needed permission to dredge, hibank or use a trommel. From the BLM

Still, wondering why you would even link that publication.

Your opinion on everything else as usual is based on just that opinion. You are absolutely the last person should listen to for advice on mining or prospecting. The fact that your a decent sniper in one region of the state. Does not make you some sort of expert on anything.

You were not short and seeming rude. You actually went out of your way to insult the OP on purpose. I think it actually makes you feel good to insult beginners or weekenders.

Funny thing is how you narrowly focus mining issues into the realm of gold prospecting. Even though there are more people digging for many more things than gold. They face access and law issues and you are so oblivious to how much of it is actually happening unfettered. Though you can't wrap your head around the fact that people have the right to not know the things they don't know yet.

There has not been a single time since you have joined this forum. That you have actually helped or educated anyone. Furthered their abilities or cleared up anything in regards to the law. no matter how much you think you have done so.

You provide eye candy and nothing more. (besides rude opinionated insults to the majority of members here)

So, many times you just prove yourself to be an unhappy, whiny, insulting , smug hypocrite. Believe me your loyalty would not be a gain for anyone.

This is an online forum where people come to ask questions. You jump in bash people who know so much more than you and people who are just trying to learn. Elevating yourself above them in ability and knowledge over and over. Painting thousands of people with a broad brush because they aren't doing things your way.

It is weird...Like you said it is also rude.

It wasn't a dick move.

It is who you are.

I am right about what I said. It wasn't a short quip. It was in informed comment relevant to the original post. Clay is also right.

You are last on the list of people who should be judging and commenting on Mining Law. You most certainly have no qualification to cut down and insult people in the mildly vauge way you do.
If you aint gonna tell anyone anything....follow that rule for everything.

Or accept the fact that you pick and choose your virtue and go out of the way to criticize people you feel are beneath you.

It really is something you should work on.

 

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[MadMarshall]

I suggested that book because I thought it be a good place to start.. I bought mine years ago at the Sac BLM and for me I found it more useful then going around to prospecting shops and forums for my answers.. Might not hold true for everyone I suppose. the answer to his question is in it but it make take some effort to find it. Other resources are available online.. literally a wealth of knowledge at our fingertips.

I am not a lawyer and I do not put claim to bein all knowing. I admit that I sometimes struggle with learning law and how to apply it and understand it. But I take the time to learn and do my best to understand it. Why? because its happens to be a part of prospecting and mining.. Not because I enjoy it but because as a land user and as prospector it is my responsibility to know it... For me its that simple..
You don't agree with me and you think individuals should be reliant on secondhand info? Well for me I see exactly where all this secondhand information has gotten small scale mining community.

 

[Goldwasher]

What page does it say what sort of equipment a prospector or miner is allowed to use. The page where it spells out regulations and thresholds that trigger, influence of the CWA or Porter Cologne.

What page in that book shows California or Federal mining regulations?
If you go to the BLM website https://www.blm.gov/programs/energy-and-minerals/mining-and-minerals/about/california

You can scroll down for laws and regulations that BLM has direction to "enforce"

Click on the Suction dredging tab...notice where it takes you....to the people who are in charge of the laws that can affect miners and prospectors and their equipment.
Notice it is not the BLM

There is also this http://mylandmatters.org/files/pdf/usbm_bul161.pdf the laws that do apply.

They are not listed or really even spoke of in the claims/validity manual

There is this also.... http://mylandmatters.org/files/pdf/ca_mining_regs2015.pdf scroll down for water code.... also not in the validity book...for a reason.

When you look at the sidebar, it becomes very clear what the scope of the BLM is in relation to a prospector or miner. They are not there to tell you or even enforce laws in regard to what your dirt or water is running through or how it got there.

Mining clubs and recreational prospecting have not taken our rights away...they have not created any of these " problems" Most people who go beyond a pan in a location where BLM or USFS affect your activites learn their first info on such things from clubs,groups or people like Clay and I who do know what they are talking about.

There is no math...no list... no info trail that shows in anyway how any of those groups or people have hurt mining.

Like I said Victor you are making your comments based on your opinion. I have watched the evolution of your respect for mining law from the beggining and what you say today about your respect...is no where near what you started out saying...

Listening to you or the BLM about what you can and can't do on public land is terrible advice.

Criticizing Barry or I for speaking our piece on an online forum, where we constantly share actual info and encourage others to make a go of it regardless of what day of the week they can actually do so...or their reason for doing so. That is rude.

Your constant bashing and complaining about the "recreational" community. Is because you want to complain about it. It is based on your opinion and attitude. Not a desire to bring righteousness to all.

It is not and has not furthered anyone's pursuits or integrity.

just as those groups or people have not hindered or affected yours.

The way you "answered" the op was ridiculous. You ridiculed him for asking on a forum that is here for asking. Laws are discussed in many threads here. in matters beyond gold prospecting. It is literally one of the reasons forums like this exist and people join.

You are way off base with your comments and "facts"

The summary...." haters gonna hate"

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Some people actually make it a hobby to read and understand laws and court cases.
These same people often go out of their way here to offer technical information and share their knowledge.

Calling people that are confused about the law in California lazy, a liability, or dope smoking old farts is simply arrogant.
My suspicion is that there is a handful of people involved in XX vs. the state that are spreading misinformation in order to rally their cause and that is a big source of confusion.

I contacted a fish and game warden to determine what is and is not allowed (in their interpretation of the regulations) and they failed to return my call.
Personally I would high bank as long as the tail water was not entering the stream and I was not disturbing the stream banks.

Other people that I respect are afraid of having equipment confiscated and being forced to go to court to defend themselves (which many cannot afford).
If it was clear and simple, or easy to determine people would not be asking questions.

Lets face it, for most people it's not what is legal or correct, or how a court case is interpreted - it's what the law enforcement is going to ticket you for.
We don't all have the time, much less the money to go to court to protect our rights.

 

[Goldwasher]

"Lets face it, for most people it's not what is legal or correct, or how a court case is interpreted - it's what the law enforcement is going to ticket you for."

Exactly

 

[gldguy1]

gldguy1

It would be a good idea just to learn the laws that apply to your activities.. Seems to me you are no better off then when you first posted.. Other then that you found someone who gave you the answer you wanted.. So what's the plan? You running your trommel and get harassed by someone and what do you have in your defense? ClayDiggins said I could?
It is your responsibility to know the laws that apply.. Its that simple.. For me this post is all to common of attitude of individuals today.. Rather spend more time asking and shopping for answers then actually learning the truth for or themselves...
Its my opinion far more harm is done do to the mining community by the lack of personal responsibility and ignorance that seems so prevalent in the recreational community ..
I just wish you would have actually taken the time to answer your own question and become a valuable asset to the community instead of just another liability...

In replying to this comment, I am very much a rookie when it comes to prospecting. My father used to be huge into it when I was young I got him a gold pan set a couple years back but then he passed away unexpectedly. I took that pan out to show my kids how to use it for his memory and found great comfort in prospecting. I am a former pro bmx athlete and have found I am very passionate about prospecting for gold like I was for the past 25 years about bicycles. I dont understand a lot of mining legal info and let's face it you ask any ranger they will tell you their agenda, so I rely on the info from my fellow experienced miners and prospectors for info and advice just like new bmx racers looked to me for guidance. People in my area like sideways sherry who took so much time or the people at my local prospecting shop in auburn ca. Bottom line i appreciate any input that will help me have more knowledge so that I can be a better prospector and and a good example to other rookie prospectors. Remember even the best most experienced miner was a rookie once too and had to learn.

 

[dredgernaut]

I recommend going to the source , call which ever agency governs your area , weather its blm or forest service , ask the people that keep changing the rules what is ok , I don't care what anyone says , unless they represent the authority , because at the end of the day they are still in charge . I'm not willing to loose equipment or get a fine or have to go to court to prove anything , a couple phone calls are easy to make , and at the end , you will have a real answer from the officials ,

I had people on this site give me a hard time for filing my plan of operation , told me I didn't need it , they all told me what my rights are , lol, like they make the rules , lol, well it took almost 2 years to get approved , and now I can do everything I wanted to, without fear . its just better to ask the officials and get facts, or you can listen to hear say and bickering amongst other people struggling to understand that rules and laws are changing

permission is better than forgiveness , best of luck to all of ya

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I recommend going to the source , call which ever agency governs your area , weather its blm or forest service , ask the people that keep changing the rules what is ok , I don't care what anyone says , unless they represent the authority , because at the end of the day they are still in charge . I'm not willing to loose equipment or get a fine or have to go to court to prove anything , a couple phone calls are easy to make , and at the end , you will have a real answer from the officials ,

I had people on this site give me a hard time for filing my plan of operation , told me I didn't need it , they all told me what my rights are , lol, like they make the rules , lol, well it took almost 2 years to get approved , and now I can do everything I wanted to, without fear . its just better to ask the officials and get facts, or you can listen to hear say and bickering amongst other people struggling to understand that rules and laws are changing

permission is better than forgiveness , best of luck to all of ya

Good looking trommel there. Have you used it yet?
Google "Early gold mining trommel" and you will come up with a couple videos of a smaller trommel that I used one season.
As slow as it looks, it processed as much clay/sand/rock material as I could shovel into it without getting too winded. We would pre-scrub some of the larger rocks in the feed tray before tossing them aside.

 

[dredgernaut]

hey digger , ya she was born to run for sure , I can not keep it fed fast enough , and it will eat anything 6 inch and less , I too use feed hopper to wash the bigger stuff before discarding it , I will check out your videos , thanks bud

 

[dredgernaut]

hey gold guy , I would say your mechanized , not motorized , no internal combustion motor , batteries right , ask the experts , lol

 

[Goldwasher]

Yep, call the people in charge.You will get several different "answers" from DFW .Call the water board. I've been on the phone several times with them. Including the guy heading the dredge permit process.He says a shovel a pump and a sluice is not a dredge.Good enough for me.I am in a spot working in a way that would never require a NOI or POO.If I was running a trommel everyday they may want me to have one. Though it is BLM so maybe not. I don't have time to wait two years for approval considering I mine for about five to six months solid .The way advice, knowledge and opinion have been shared by people here. Who do know and do talk to people has been slightly mis-characterized. I think its awesome that they "let" dreadgernaut run according to his POO. However the limited time he is running and the relatively small amount of material is a big part of it. Yes it is my opinion that he didn't even need to apply.Having the written permission from the man is a super bonus.Though there are quite a few people in the state doing the same thing no POO.One thing of note and I hope dredgernaut will confirm....they do not want you dumping tails or water back into the river or creek.The way that we have always run high bankers out of the stream.Pretty much the jist of what was being communicated to gldguy. Other than dredges there are no actual rules or regulations about the type of equipment you "can" use Just if the miner feels his activities meet the threshold of an NOI or POO based on certain spelled out thresholds. Certain districts(forest srvc.) have pushed what and when that is the case.

 

[dredgernaut]

correct , do not let dirty water or tailings run back in to any waterway ,100 to 200 yards per summer is definitely a small amount of material for 1 guy , lol , its enough for me , the poo also covers re-opening an old road , installing a gate with lock , and allowing for my mini excavator to dig all my material loose and piled next to trommel , i run my material right back into the holes it came from , with a silt fence to stop cloudy water from traveling back, I run the trommel by hand to guarantee its not being over run , and my 14 feet of sluice are not packing up , also i don't want to dig hard pack by hand for 6 months a year , that's work not fun ,
but at least when the rules change again , I'm safe with my paperwork and finding good gold ,, also i work on my claim under forest service control , and they are actively harassing miners near me , so ya , i got a permit , goldwasher is a smart guy and knows enough , but he does not know much about what I'm doing , or he would know that in order to do my level of mining it requires paperwork ,I'm not just prospecting anymore. , which is why you should call if in doubt ,
but i don't mine for a living , i do it cause I'm addicted
i love bongs and recliners , lol

 

[Goldwasher]

yep because of the excavator. That is one of the criteria that would make a miner need at least a Noi

Blm may leave it at that. forrest service not likely.

Some rangers are trying to call anything past a sluice box more than casual use and will try and push for a NOI and POO

For power sluicing and trommels.

Case law and state law mining law don't really support that.

Honestly I don't remember if in your original post or on the phone you mentioned the mini excavator. Because yes, I do know that at that point you would at least need an NOI. If anything to avoid being harassed in the future from any of the people you need permission from

Digging by hand keeps you out of most paperwork running a motor is not a trigger of an NOI or POO.

I don't know how a weekender could create, follow or have a plan approved.

Someone working a site for weeks with that level of equipment of course it makes sense.

A plan in place and approved is not a shelter from new rules, regulations or staff changes....

Running tails into excavations, silt screens, best operating practices are all things that prevent a small operation causing environmental problems per either CWA or Porter Cologne.

Since those acts describe what shouldn't happen a miner should be able to avoid issues by not creating them.

The added oversight by ranger districts may keep miners from causing harm.

The added "laws" like the dredge permitting issue are merely a tactic to make it " not worth it" there are people in charge in theses agencies, who do not want any digging on public lands at all. Look at what they say about metal detecting.

There is ample law in place that dictates what where and how you can.

If I was setting out to have a similar op I would go the paperwork route.

If ten of us set out to do it in ten different areas of the state and we start out with phone calls...I still claim that we would get five to ten different outcomes.

Back to the OP. A 12 volt recirc trommel , hell a gas motor powered trommel in and of its self is not illegal to run in Ca. and depending on how and where you are sourcing your material requires no special paperwork.

Yes, you can get on the phone and sign yourself up for whatever they are willing to let you sign up for. Some uppity jackhole can still come along and cause you problems paperwork or not.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I have heard there is an outfit that has been successfully jumping through the hoops to get a plan of operation going here in northern california.
The operation involved logging mature fir trees and mining a virgin bar on USFS administered public land.

First modern operation of that kind I have heard of here along a wild and scenic river.

 

[Goldwasher]

there are several bonded mines in The E.D.N.F

If you jump through the hoops and they don't require a bond....I would think you jump through hoops just for their entertainment

 

[dredgernaut]

if it makes you feel better I did end up paying a 2000 dollar bond.

 

[Goldwasher]

if it makes you feel better I did end up paying a 2000 dollar bond. View attachment 1649829 View attachment 1649830 View attachment 1649831 View attachment 1649836

Done for the seaseon?

How did it go?

Did anyone come check on you while you were out there?

Did you have to do all your reclamation before leaving for the season?

Just curious?

 

[dredgernaut]

yeah done for this year. water ran out. it was good. only had 3 weeks to play and 4 days driving. yes forest service came twice to make sure I was doing what I said I would. there were no issues. I filled in my dig holes as seasonal reclamation , but road can stay til I close out the plan. have 2 more seasons on existing plan before having to file extension or close. the fella that came with me kinda drove me nuts. And some pretty gold but never enough. lol. biggest piece 4 grams. I think i have a good strategy and the location is better prepared for next year. now I gotta just think about it for 6 months until melt when I have water again