🔎 UNIDENTIFIED Unknown brass button

[wayfas4u]

Dug at late 1700’s site near Parker’s Ferry SC. Made out of brass and measures 35 mm. Diameter. Who is the person male or female? Would like to know the history of this button.

 

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[CRUSADER]

Nice button, not seen that image before, but the construction of the button fits the late 18th C.

 

[DCMatt]

It's a livery button. As Crusader mentions, late 18th C. I'm guessing it's a male, crowned head, with a snake wrapped around. The figure is likely not of a real person. They could be any design often limited only by the imagination of the head of household of a wealthy family.

Without a back mark or button maker, you'll just have to try to eyeball it from images on the internet. I looked a little but didn't see a match. Great find! Good luck!

 

[wayfas4u]

Nice button, not seen that image before, but the construction of the button fits the late 18th C.

Thank you, crusader 😊

Nice button, not seen that image before, but the construction of the button fits the late 18th C.

Nice button, not seen that image before, but the construction of the button fits the late 18th C.

Thank you, crusader! I appreciate your comment.

 

[wayfas4u]

It's a livery button. As Crusader mentions, late 18th C. I'm guessing it's a male, crowned head, with a snake wrapped around. The figure is likely not of a real person. They could be any design often limited only by the imagination of the head of household of a wealthy family.

Without a back mark or button maker, you'll just have to try to eyeball it from images on the internet. I looked a little but didn't see a match. Great find! Good luck!

DCMatt, thank you for taking the time and responding! You’ve just told me something I’ve never heard of… interesting very interesting! It’s these questionable relics that make me really enjoy the hobby!

 

[CRUSADER]

It's a livery button. As Crusader mentions, late 18th C. I'm guessing it's a male, crowned head, with a snake wrapped around. The figure is likely not of a real person. They could be any design often limited only by the imagination of the head of household of a wealthy family.

Without a back mark or button maker, you'll just have to try to eyeball it from images on the internet. I looked a little but didn't see a match. Great find! Good luck!

I don't normally don't disagree with you but its not a Livery Button, its more an unusual Dandy Button. Livery has to have that roped boarder at the base (wrong terminology but you get what I mean)
Dandy Buttons have no back-marks 99% of the time.

 

[DCMatt]

I don't normally don't disagree with you but its not a Livery Button, its more an unusual Dandy Button. Livery has to have that roped boarder at the base (wrong terminology but you get what I mean)
Dandy Buttons have no back-marks 99% of the time.

For this topic, I consider you our resident expert on T-net. I appreciate the correction. I was not aware of the strict definition of a livery. Can you point me to a place where I can better educate myself on the topic?

In my defense, I looked at examples of "livery buttons" on a couple of different websites. While most of them had a torse under the whatever figure was the main element of the button, a significant number of examples did not.

https://sites.google.com/site/liverybuttonsidentified/home

 

[wayfas4u]

I don't normally don't disagree with you but its not a Livery Button, its more an unusual Dandy Button. Livery has to have that roped boarder at the base (wrong terminology but you get what I mean)
Dandy Buttons have no back-marks 99% of the time.

Hmmmm…. This is getting super interesting - I value all these comments. ☺️

 

[Red-Coat]

I don't normally don't disagree with you but its not a Livery Button, its more an unusual Dandy Button. Livery has to have that roped boarder at the base (wrong terminology but you get what I mean)
Dandy Buttons have no back-marks 99% of the time.

For this topic, I consider you our resident expert on T-net. I appreciate the correction. I was not aware of the strict definition of a livery. Can you point me to a place where I can better educate myself on the topic?

In my defense, I looked at examples of "livery buttons" on a couple of different websites. While most of them had a torse under the whatever figure was the main element of the button, a significant number of examples did not.

https://sites.google.com/site/liverybuttonsidentified/home

Guys, while I agree this is likely not a livery button by any conventional definition, it’s not the presence or absence of a “roped border at the base” which defines it to be so or not.

That border is called a a “torse” and represents a wreath made from two lengths of fabric twisted together. Heraldically, the two pieces are of different colours… with one taking the metallic colour of the armorial shield. The most common combination is “argent & gules” (silver & red) and it’s usually shown as six twists of alternating tinctures, depicted linear or with a slight curvature.

Its purpose was that it sat on top of the helm of an armorial (usually a knight’s helmet but not always) to mask the join between the helm and the crest.



When depicting an armorial (eg on a livery button or elsewhere for other identity reasons), it’s often only the crest which is depicted… not the full armorial. By convention, the torse is blazoned as part of the crest if the crest is shown in isolation from the rest of the armorial. However, not everyone who used a livery button had a full helmed armorial, or slavishly followed those heraldic conventions if they did. Also, sometimes what is depicted is not actually the armorial crest but an “emblem” associated with the family or organisation, for which the torse is inappropriate… although it may be added for decorative or pretentious reasons.

Consequently, there are numerous livery buttons with no torse, although the majority will have it.

I’ve never seen a button like this before but the imagery is curiously familiar and I have a nagging feeling that it has some allegorical meaning. Try as I might, I can’t place it.

 

[fyrffytr1]

Dang Rod, I think you have accomplished the unimaginable. You have stumped Red-Coat!

 

[pepperj]

Interesting button and comments.
The bust image does look vaguely familiar.

 

[CRUSADER]

Guys, while I agree this is likely not a livery button by any conventional definition, it’s not the presence or absence of a “roped border at the base” which defines it to be so or not.

That border is called a a “torse” and represents a wreath made from two lengths of fabric twisted together. Heraldically, the two pieces are of different colours… with one taking the metallic colour of the armorial shield. The most common combination is “argent & gules” (silver & red) and it’s usually shown as six twists of alternating tinctures, depicted linear or with a slight curvature.

Its purpose was that it sat on top of the helm of an armorial (usually a knight’s helmet but not always) to mask the join between the helm and the crest.

View attachment 2068698

When depicting an armorial (eg on a livery button or elsewhere for other identity reasons), it’s often only the crest which is depicted… not the full armorial. By convention, the torse is blazoned as part of the crest if the crest is shown in isolation from the rest of the armorial. However, not everyone who used a livery button had a full helmed armorial, or slavishly followed those heraldic conventions if they did. Also, sometimes what is depicted is not actually the armorial crest but an “emblem” associated with the family or organisation, for which the torse is inappropriate… although it may be added for decorative or pretentious reasons.

Consequently, there are numerous livery buttons with no torse, although the majority will have it.

I’ve never seen a button like this before but the imagery is curiously familiar and I have a nagging feeling that it has some allegorical meaning. Try as I might, I can’t place it.

It wasn't just the 'torse' who name I forgot, its the construction similar to Dandy Buttons & that most Livery buttons are circa 1800-1850 & have backmarks.
So it was more the whole package that excluded the Livery category.
Its construction & size is consistent with 1750-80 date, in line with the Dandy buttons but far from a typical one.

 

[Red-Coat]

It wasn't just the 'torse' who name I forgot, its the construction similar to Dandy Buttons & that most Livery buttons are circa 1800-1850 & have backmarks.
So it was more the whole package that excluded the Livery category.
Its construction & size is consistent with 1750-80 date, in line with the Dandy buttons but far from a typical one.

Not disagreeing with that, but I am disagreeing with your statement that: "Livery has to have that roped boarder at the base" for the reasons I gave above.

 

[devldog]

Great Save of the button. I like the others are awaiting the nailed down I'D of this button. It's a Great piece of History either way. Well Done.

 

[CRUSADER]

Not disagreeing with that, but I am disagreeing with your statement that: "Livery has to have that roped boarder at the base" for the reasons I gave above.

Sure, should have said normally has, & as well as.....
Just the way I write sometime, blurt it out, I need to reread it to make sure. From memory the only bust on a Livery I can remember is a slave bust. (where its the stand-a-lone element)

 

[wayfas4u]

Interesting button and comments.
The bust image does look vaguely familiar.

I agree with you seems like I’ve seen this image somewhere…