water heaters

[rockhound]

I have been using a tankless water heater for about 6 years now, and it has slashed my electic bills by about $40 amonth. I woud not go back to a tank water heater unless it was solar powered. I have endless hot water and it only used electricity when in use, unlike tank models that use electricity 24-7, whether you use it or not. There are several different models and prices out there but most are similar in function, construction and warranty. Several things must be considered when purchasing one. First, you will need to run a new electrical line because the tankless uses two or three breakers, according to which model you choose. Next you will have to determine which model you need by what geographical location where you live(winter time water temps). Two element models will carry one bath plus a waher, or sink-vanity at one time. Thre element models will carry two baths plus a waher or sink-vanity at one time, but there are even different wattages in these units. Unlike tank heaters, tankless only heat the water 40-50 degrees over incoming water temps. If you winter time water temps are around 32 degrees, then you will have to have a large unit to increase the temperature to 100-120 degrees. Once installed though, there is virtually no maintenance if you intall a hole house filter before it enters the heater. The heater uses a flow valve to turn on the unit, if any dirt or grit gits in it, it may not come on or shut off completely. The only cons about these are that if your electricity goes off, then you have no reserve to rely on. You can operate a tankless in several different ways, one is to set the thermostat like atank heater about 120-130 and use both cold and hot water, Or you can just get in the shower and set it until it is comfortable, then use only the hot water faucet. This will save you more because you are not heating it up so high. This is the method I use, imagine turning on the hot water and it being the correct temperature you want everytime. Good Luck. rockhound

 

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[rockhound]

These are claimed to be the worlds most energy eficient water heaters. www.airgenerate.com/ Good Luck. rockhound

 

[FarmerChick]

hi rockhound
thanks for opening up this thread.


question

I have 2 bath house. then kitchen sink and mudroom sink.

we never have both showers/tub running at the same time.


So would this be only one tankless unit? I can install one large unit and it covers the whole house?


I somehow got the feeling I needed a few tanks for different areas in the home? I am thinking my quess is wrong? lol (my thinking one was a small unit in each bathroom, then like a small unit under cabinets in each sink area)

 

[FarmerChick]

OK I looked at that link you provided.

very cool. sets onto the existing water heater.

it said to remove the anode on top then reconnect and install is done.
seems very simple.

but my heating element is on the bottom of the tank? wouldn't it still turn on?

I mean I don't know LOL

I truly don't get this stuff and it takes me a bit to catch on.

 

[Unicorn]

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/homeowner/boilers/what-is-a-combi-boiler

The above link is to show what type of water heater we have. This combi boiler is run from the cold water and heated when you turn the electric power on.. at the shower. This cuts out any other water heating as this system runs the hot water right thru the house. Just turn on the tap and you get hot water. It is expensive at first but it's much cheaper in the long run, and has certainly cut our bills down. However on saying that, the utility companies have increased their prices yet again this year. Seems whatever you do they are always the winner. I certainly think that solar energy is going to be the way to go in the future. If you use more than you need of solar energy you can sell it back to the National Grid...well thats what they do over here. Hope this is of some help

'U'

 

[FarmerChick]

a combo boiler, never heard of that one.

yea Duke power wanted to increase 18% this year.
Commission is letting only increase 9%.

every time I try to save more the price goes up so what a losing battle I feel it is but a battle I have to compete all the time...UGH

 

[rockhound]

One water heater will furnish a house. It all depends on how many baths and other open faucets you will have running at one time. They are not like a tank water heater in that you have to have a reserve of water, but since they heat the water across a short set of elements, they have to be proportioned to the geographical locations as well as gallons per minute usage. Before I got mine, I had a 42 gallon tank water heater. When my wife took a shower and shaved or whatever, I had to wait for 30 minutes to take a shower. Then, when I was in the shower, due to having to run hot and cold mixed water to get the temperature just right, if she turned on a faucet somewhere, I had to run to the back of the shower because of the colder water having more volume. Now if she turnes on a faucet while I am showering I just get less volume of hot water but same temperature. Mine is a two element, made for one bath and one other faucet,they make a three element for two baths and a faucet. Mine is a Bosch, but many companies now make them. They have been used in Japan and Germany for over 30 years, and is the only type made and sold there because of their efficiency, except recently they started making and selling solar units that sit on their roofs. Mst have a 10 year warranty, but because they only work when the hot water is turned on, they should last a lot longer, and I have heard reports of some in Japan and Germany lasting over 30 years without any maintenance. One other reason they will last longer is because no calcium deposits can accumulate on the elements. You do have to use a filter to keep those deposits out of your heater. If you don't they will clog up all your faucet screens and you will have to clean them every week or so. Also they are safer because they can't build up gas and explode like tank water heaters can. 25 percent of your electricity goes into heating water. It is better to buy 2 smaller units then one large unit, then if something should happen to one, you will still have hot water until you can replace the other one. Have one for the bathroom only, then one to carry everything else.Good Luck. rockhound

 

[rockhound]

Look on an agricultural map or seed book map to determine your zone. Mine is 6, which gets no colder than 0, according to the map. The water temperature only gets to 32-35 degress in the winter. With a 60-70 degree increase in temperature, I can take a shower or wash clothes or dishes or whatever. If you want more temperature out of a smaller unit, use a 3/8 line instead of a 1/2 inch line. It will cut the volume of water but it will be hotter. We wash our clothes mostly in cold water anyway, so it doesn't even come on when we run the washer, also we hang out our clothes on a line and don't run the dryer much. in the winter we hang the clothes across the bathtub on a rod and let them dry, unless we need them in a hurry. We also wash smaller loads every other day to reduce water and electrical costs. I replumbed my whole house when I installed mine and cut out a lot of unneccessary pipes. Shorter pipes mean faster hot water and less heat losses. I also insulated my pipes on the hot water side to further reduce heat losses. You can buy a 120 volt unit to put under a sink or vanity, but I haven't any experience with them. They should reduce your water heater usage even more. You could install one under every sink or vanity and only be using 120 volts and less wattage than a larger unit. It may not be cost effective in the installation but should vastly reduce costs in the long run. It all depends on how much you want to spend up front. I bought mine at the Home Depot, but Lowe's and other chain stores sell them. You can find some great deals on them on Ebay. Wrapping a blanket of insulation around a tank water heater will help, as well as using a timer. The only thing that bothers me is, what if you need hot water and your timer is off. You will have to wait at least 30 minutes to get hot water. Tankless is ready and instataneous. Good Luck. rockhound

 

[Unicorn]

Another thing I forgot to mention is loft insulation. You can have this done at subsidized rates, and the senior citizens can, in alot of cases get it done free this reduces any heat lost from your roof. Then there is cavity wall insulation, this reduces heat loss from your walls. All of these are now being done in most homes. Oh! yes I forgot to also mention double glazed windows. You would be amazed at how much heat you lose thru single glazed windows. It all sounds very expensive, and yes it is initially, but done over a period of time and with careful housekeeping, it does save you alot of money.


'U'

 

[FarmerChick]

I tell ya if I could build again from the ground up the home would be so efficient it would be scary.

but renovating is worse. it is expensive to 'change' things ya know. which stinks in these hard times.

obviously some changes are good but that wait time to recover costs sometimes gets very high and daily living expenses take over. So that expensive investment to save over long time gets shot down.



I am in experiment mode right now. I turned off the water heater for 11 hrs. yesterday.

1/2 before I needed hot water I turned it on. Worked fine. Washed dinner dishes then off it went again til very late night when I turned it on for hubby to go to work early am.

I will do this for a month. I want to see if having this WH off for 10-12 hrs per day will cut my bill by about $40 (I am hoping) This is just a fun experiment to see if it truly does save me money.



right now I am on the fence on spending money to change. The WH is not old. The cost of changing is not easy right now to tankless.

But tankless is in my future I believe.

I liked that link. I think when the old WH dies, I will consider that posted link.

best thing I can do is research that is for sure...so when I need new I have a heads up on the situation.


great info on the thread. All stuff to learn from and that sure helps!!!!

 

[Unicorn]

Farmer chick.... You might find that by leaving your water heating off for a long time could be counter productive. Because you use more energy, heating it up in that half an hour or so before you need the water than leaving it on a steady temperature all of the time. Our gas fitter told us that's it's much more energy efficent to leave our temperature control on at a steady heat all of the time. This way, it doesn't have that sudden surge of power, and thus using up more electricity to get it at the right temperature for you. Try your experiment first, and then perhaps try it the other way, then you will see which is better for you. Hope you find the right way for you, heating your home, especially in the winter can be a very expensive business. Incidentally we tried both of those ways that I suggested, and over a period of time, what the gas fitter told us, certainly worked out to be the least expensive. Sometimes you don't know what to do for the best really do you?

'U'

 

[FarmerChick]

that is interesting U. I heard it your way also and then I had someone tell me they turned it off for the 8 hrs they were at work....came home turned it on for a few hrs. to use....then off at night and on right before AM shower. They said their elec. bill was cut in 1/2. (he was single at the time and not alot of elec. use from others).

He said the shut off was a big money saver and he saw results.

And again, I heard it your way LOL plus I am worried on and off might stress that element


I guess like you said, trial and error. If ya don't try you don't know so at this point I will try lol

I did all I can. Temp set 123F lowest recommended. I have the blanket wrap. It is inside in its own little warm small room. Hardly use any hot water for laundry. In fact our hot water use is not all that much (in general) like most I would think.

But my elec. company says this:

that is my current situation. And I thought, well heck if the laundry isn't getting hot water, and I don't use the dryer except for towels and cruddy weather (I have a clothesline) then it has to be the dang WH lol

 

[rockhound]

Unicorn is correct. If you let the water get cold, it takes far mjore electricity to heat it up than to keep it at a low temperature. You might turn it to around 100 or the lowest swetting, then a half hour before you need it adjust it to 125 or so, but that would probably be a lot of trouble. Also, moving the thermostat that much may compromise its durability. If you have a basement or other suitable room where a window can be utilized then you could run your pipes where the suns could help heat it before going into the heater, other than that, there's probably not much else you can do, unless you cut it off for long periods of time like you mentioned. Water heaters usually comprise 1/4 of your electricity usage, as shown in your chart. You refrigerator, unless it is a newer energy star one, uses the most next to your water heater, unless you run a heat pump or other for heating and cooling. You can insulate the back of your refrigerator with either styrofoam or fiberglass house insulation to help heat losses. Windows and doors are where the majority of heat and cooling losses occur. The attic can also be a drain on your system if you don't have engh insulation in it. most houses manufactured in the US before 1990's don't have enough insulation in the walls or floors. Houses built now have far more insulation in them than those built before everyone started thinking green. Electrical rates were much cheaper then so most people never considered reducing or modifying their energy usage. Good Luck rockhound

 

[diggemall]

He said the shut off was a big money saver and he saw results. As he should have. If it doesn't work for water heaters, set-back thermostats shouldn't work for home heating either (but they do) If you like, I can run through all the math that backs it up as well - the longer it is off the more you will save. BTW - why not turn it on before bed, hubby gets a hot shower, you do the dishes, then turn it off again until bed time ?

And again, I heard it your way LOL plus I am worried on and off might stress that element Believe me, the element & the thermostat will cycle on and off a lot more trying to maintain the higher temp setting if you don't turn it off. I could see that the greater temperature differential would be more stressful on the element than a constant temp would be though (expansion & contraction of the element)

that is my current situation. And I thought, well heck if the laundry isn't getting hot water, and I don't use the dryer except for towels and cruddy weather (I have a clothesline) then it has to be the dang WH lol Have you hunted down "phantom loads" ? You'd be surprised how many things aren't really OFF when they're turned "off".

There is a little gadget called a Kill-A-Watt meter. You can get them for around $20.00. You plug it into the outlet, then plug in whatever you want to measure. It will keep track of Kilowatts used as well as time so you can figure how much power, say your computer & monitor are using in a day, a week, or whatever. Try one on your PC when it is "off", or your TV, etc. Sometimes, utility companies will have them to loan out for free too. (But it won't work for your 220 volt water heater :-( )

Incidentally, tankless is a GREAT way to go, especially if your useage is relatively low and / or your hot water consumption points are "clustered" rather than scattered all over the house. Constantly fighting heat LOSS is a big part of the expense in heating & distributing water.

Diggem'

 

[rockhound]

Yes, a Kill-a-watt meter will pinpoint where your energy usage is excessive. It can be used on anything 120 volt AC. Computers and TV's, even off, consume small amounts of electricity. The only way to avoid this is to use a surge protector and turn them off with it or unplug them. The only way to truly shut off electrical leaks is at the breaker box. This will ensure that no electricity is being consumed when off. Switching to LED bulbs in your lights will save a considerable amount of electricity over the period of a year. If your refrigerator has anything except an LED, replace it. When you open the door your are losing cooling, plus an incadescent bulb will heat it up more, requiring it to run longer to cool it back down. Water is the most expensive, then heat pump, then refrigerator. Controlling these will drop your electrical costs. Good Luck. rockhound

 

[Unicorn]

Each time we go out of the house now, we turn off the plug to the T.V. so it's no longer on standby, another little energy saving tip, they all add up.

'U'

 

[rockhound]

It seems like such a small thing to do but over the course of a year it makes a differnce you can see on your electric bill. Good Luck. rockhound

 

[FarmerChick]

good post diggem'


yes I have everything on power strips. But the tvs were not because we had directtv and that sucker when off would take forever to reinstall. But about 10 days ago we switched to cable tv and it has a reinstall time of about 1-2 mins. Fast. So I need to hit the store and get power strips for the tvs now.

I even unplug my micro. If it has a clock, or anything that requires phantom elec. it goes off all the time. I even unplug the kids portable dvd in her room when she is not using it. To me darn near everything plugged in sucks something..well alot of things lol

I think that is the idea. just a few pennies of savings adds up to alot of dollars in the end.

 

[diggemall]

Our electric bill runs around $350.00 / month..... A couple years ago I did energy analysis on most everything in the house to find out how much each contributed to the bill.

A few other things to consider, if you don't already:

Well pumps - IF your pressure tank isn't up to snuff, the pump will cycle on and off more frequently when drawing water. Listen as the toilet fills after flushing - does the 'pitch' of the running water go up and down, up and down? If it does, then the pressure tank is either low on air, or has a ruptured bladder. The amount of electricity required to start a motor (inrush current) is often double the normal running current, so starting & stopping uses more power.

Laundry - it takes about the same amount of power to run a washing machine through its cycles whether you have a small load, or a full load. Small loads waste power.

Refrigeration - whether refrigerators or deep freezer, ours cost us around $25.00 / month - that's $300.00 / year to store what ? We had two of each running - shut down one of each and shop a little more judiciously, do more canning and less freezing. Also, keep the coils underneath / behind the unit CLEAN, and don't obstruct the airflow to them. Vacuum them out once or twice a year.

Dishes - here's a surprising one - most folks think they'll save money doing dishes by hand. This is often not true, especially if you have a relatively new dishwasher. Newer dishwashers use relatively little hot water to clean a LOT of dishware as they "recycle" a fair amount of the wash water. Just remember to disable the "power dry" cycle at the end that fires up the heating elements to speed the drying process (let them air dry).

Pets / hobbies - do you keep aquariums ? These, especially saltwater tanks, can be KILLER electricity hogs between lighting, pumps, and heaters. (Ours cost us about $30.00 / mo EACH) Figure out the minimum amount of time those high-powered halogen lights really NEED to run, and put 'em on a timer.......

Air compressors - shade tree mechanics often leave a compressor plugged in 24/7. As the air leaks out wherever, they run to recharge the tank, whether you're using it or not.

Tank / trough heaters - if you keep livestock and have to heat water for them over the winter, it may be worth investing in insulated tanks. Here in WI it cost us 20.00 - 25.00 EACH / month to run tank heaters in two stock tanks and two koi ponds. We're down to one of each now, and the insulated stock tank saves almost half over an uninsulated tank. Instead of heating water for the chickens, we have two waterers - they get switched every day at feeding time so the birds have fresh water available for a few hours each day.


Diggem'

 

[rockhound]

All good suggestions. Most people just don't realize what they can do to save on their electrical and or heating bills. Good Luck. rockhound