Wells Fargo $250K <---- malarkey !!!

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Seriously.

Whatever the supposed source of this diversionary adjunct to the LDM legend, we can all rest assured it never happened.

If waltz had sent off that value of gold to anywhere, the question would be, where is the money? What became of it? Something had to happen after it was sent off, what?

If it could be shown, then THAT would be the treasure worth looking for.

Is there some cache of coins he received in return? Some missing bank account that has yet to be reconciled? Is there a smelter somewhere holding a payout just waiting to be claimed?

I call BS on the Wells Fargo angle. Never happened, doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

All in favor say aye.

 

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[Springfield]

Seriously.

Whatever the supposed source of this diversionary adjunct to the LDM legend, we can all rest assured it never happened.

If waltz had sent off that value of gold to anywhere, the question would be, where is the money? What became of it? Something had to happen after it was sent off, what?

If it could be shown, then THAT would be the treasure worth looking for.

Is there some cache of coins he received in return? Some missing bank account that has yet to be reconciled? Is there a smelter somewhere holding a payout just waiting to be claimed?

I call BS on the Wells Fargo angle. Never happened, doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

All in favor say aye.

Of course it's total bs, as are most of the 'clues'. That's $US 15 million in today's money. Don't worry, there'll probably be an explanation for it.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Of course it's total bs, as are most of the 'clues'. That's $US 15 million in today's money. Don't worry, there'll probably be an explanation for it.

I agree. I calculate it out to 16$Million plus the original 250, if it were gold today, but who's counting

And this thing isn't even any sort of a clue. It is just supposed to bolster the idea that there was a rich mine in the first place, which some how is supposedly still out there waiting for us.

There really is little (or NO) evidence of any such rich lode awaiting

 

[Oroblanco]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

I call BS on the Wells Fargo angle. Never happened, doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

　

Springfield wrote

Of course it's total bs, as are most of the 'clues'. That's $US 15 million in today's money. Don't worry, there'll probably be an explanation for it.

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

And this thing isn't even any sort of a clue. It is just supposed to bolster the idea that there was a rich mine in the first place, which some how is supposedly still out there waiting for us.

There really is little (or NO) evidence of any such rich lode awaiting

　
Yah old Pete Petrasch must have made that thing up to have an excuse why he spent the rest of his life searching. Along with Reiney, Old man Gottfried Petrasch, Dick Holmes, Brownie Holmes, Clay Wurst or even Julia Thomas, though she only searched a few times before having to give it up. They were all just making it up, all "in" on the big phoney story. Right? And the people who claimed they saw Waltz selling gold, must have been lying to increase tourism, and the famous matchbox, well that is made up too. Right?

Not a big problem either - you fellows can sure STAY HOME and leave the LDM for others to search for. This has been gone over ad nauseum - you are not going to get the kinds of evidence you wish, nor are you going to convince everyone that the LDM never existed. No one is being forced to go search for the LDM after all. Sour grapes anyone?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote

　

Springfield wrote


ConceptualizedNetherlandr wrote


　
Yah old Pete Petrasch must have made that thing up to have an excuse why he spent the rest of his life searching. Along with Reiney, Old man Gottfried Petrasch, Dick Holmes, Brownie Holmes, Clay Wurst or even Julia Thomas, though she only searched a few times before having to give it up. They were all just making it up, all "in" on the big phoney story. Right? And the people who claimed they saw Waltz selling gold, must have been lying to increase tourism, and the famous matchbox, well that is made up too. Right?

Not a big problem either - you fellows can sure STAY HOME and leave the LDM for others to search for. This has been gone over ad nauseum - you are not going to get the kinds of evidence you wish, nor are you going to convince everyone that the LDM never existed. No one is being forced to go search for the LDM after all. Sour grapes anyone?
[/FONT]

Please try to make your posts relevant to the topic, in this case the Wells Fargo $250K proffer.

You are not being forced to post. If you do have many grapes please make us some wine rather than whine.

Where did that supposed fortune go?

 

[393stroker]

I remember reading somewhere that old Jake sent the money from his gold back to Germany to his sister. Anybody else ever hear something along those lines?

 

[Oroblanco]

Please try to make your posts relevant to the topic, in this case the Wells Fargo $250K proffer.

You are not being forced to post. If you do have many grapes please make us some wine rather than whine.

Where did that supposed fortune go?

Neither are you. I am not the one spouting the sour grapes stuff, you however are. Would you prefer if I simply put you on ignore?

393stroker wrote

I remember reading somewhere that old Jake sent the money from his gold back to Germany to his sister. Anybody else ever hear something along those lines?

I have heard much the same thing - but really who knows? We don't know what those receipts were - perhaps it was for the money to be sent to someone else, like a sister or another relative, or a partner? The Petrasches had gotten possession of those receipts, which are now being denied ever existed, and I do not now what became of their papers when they died.

A point which seems to get missed is that if Waltz's mine was as rich as the Holmes assay reports, and the size was about what one version had it (no bigger than a barrel for entrance, not more than a dozen feet deep) it is very much within reason that Waltz had mined about a quarter million in gold out of it. On the other hand, if we dismiss that report of the Wells Fargo shipments, one is left wondering just what happened to the gold Waltz had mined out, considering we can only account for a few thousand dollars worth otherwise.

Of course we can all accept or dismiss any or all of it.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

This WF thing is really of little/no importance to the LDM myth anyway. It is one of the things bantered bout which seems as about unlikely as they get. Not to mention it hardly makes any sense, at least as I have heard it.

What is this WF thing supposed to be anyway? What is the bestest most original reference documented on it?

Oro points out we do not have any such receipts (real or otherwise) to even know what they supposedly represent, if they ever existed at all.

How is this supposed to be sour grapes anyway?

 

[Somero]

This WF thing is really of little/no importance to the LDM myth anyway. It is one of the things bantered bout which seems as about unlikely as they get. Not to mention it hardly makes any sense, at least as I have heard it.

What is this WF thing supposed to be anyway? What is the bestest most original reference documented on it?

Oro points out we do not have any such receipts (real or otherwise) to even know what they supposedly represent, if they ever existed at all.

How is this supposed to be sour grapes anyway?

Your thread, but like so many have pointed out to you, your probably not going to get that evidence you can hold in your hand. Unless sgtfda lets you hold his nuggets, which to me is pretty solid evidence, or go and look for yourself.........or don't, nobody is forcing you. But please do continue, I find your tenacity to disprove what others may believe fascinating and makes for good reading

 

[Oroblanco]

This WF thing is really of little/no importance to the LDM myth anyway. It is one of the things bantered bout which seems as about unlikely as they get. Not to mention it hardly makes any sense, at least as I have heard it.

What is this WF thing supposed to be anyway? What is the bestest most original reference documented on it?

Oro points out we do not have any such receipts (real or otherwise) to even know what they supposedly represent, if they ever existed at all.

How is this supposed to be sour grapes anyway?

Sour grapes, the fox story from Aesop.

The Wells Fargo receipts were not published in any LDM book that I know of, it was mentioned in private letters between Ruth McGee and a treasure hunter whose name escapes me at the moment. It was posted here some time ago. In the letter, the writer mentioned that the Petrasch boys (Pete and Reiney) were about to give up on hunting the Lost Dutchman mine, concluding that Waltz had told them a fable, until they found those Wells Fargo receipts for a quarter million in gold shipments by Waltz. It actually makes sense that the LDM should have produced about that much (or more) based on the Holmes assay report and the amount of rock removed from the mine, and finding those receipts gave the Petrasches the incentive to hunt for the mine, since they now knew that Waltz had shipped a sizable amount of gold not just the few thousand he had at the end of his life.

We do not have those receipts, the Wells Fargo official historian claims they never did any shipping in Arizona in that time period, (we can prove that incorrect, while there may not have been Wells Fargo stages in AZ, they were certainly doing business in AZ in the time period, mostly through contract agents however, but with official Wells Fargo authority) so in the long run they do not make a big difference in helping to find the mine. It is usually pointed to by the skeptics as phoney, made up etc and even claimed to be "disproved" which is also not true. If Waltz shipped the gold it hardly makes any difference as to where the proceeds went, for one thing many old timers did not believe in banks in those days and for another there are not that many records for the time.

Actually you were on a far better track to find the Lost Dutchman mine, or just a plain vanilla gold mine by the methods you were using previously, those geological studies done by the USGS shortly before the area was declared a wilderness area. The geology around the edges of the wilderness area are the most promising for finding gold and silver, as you probably already saw. The fact that several rich gold mines were discovered in the Goldfield area, might be the very best clue to the location of Waltz's mine, since that area was considered a part of the Superstition mountains when Waltz was alive, not to mention the coincidences in the routes taken by some of the early Dutch hunters. Heck there is even gold inside the Lost Dutchman state park for that matter, which is totally off-limits to touch (you would need to dig to get at it, and that is verboten inside the state park).

 

[sgtfda]

You see Eric I should not have let you hold my nuggets. You will never be happy again

I sorry but was there more than gold in the candle box. The Dutchmans life savings was $4000 in gold was it not. Someone ran off with that not leaving enough to bury him. Sad ending for a millionaire

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Your thread, but like so many have pointed out to you, your probably not going to get that evidence you can hold in your hand. Unless sgtfda lets you hold his nuggets, which to me is pretty solid evidence, or go and look for yourself.........or don't, nobody is forcing you. But please do continue, I find your tenacity to disprove what others may believe fascinating and makes for good reading

Hey, I am not trying to prove or disprove anything. I am investigating.

 

[Somero]

Sorry Frank, it's just that nice sound they make when they shake

 

[Somero]

Hey, I am not trying to prove or disprove anything. I am investigating.

I can understand that, what I don't understand is Oro has attempted to answer your questions with information so you can come to your own conclusions and for some reason you seem..................disappointed and upset with him.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Sour grapes, the fox story from Aesop.

I do not see how that applies.

The Wells Fargo receipts were not published in any LDM book that I know of, it was mentioned in private letters between Ruth McGee and a treasure hunter whose name escapes me at the moment. It was posted here some time ago. In the letter, the writer mentioned that the Petrasch boys (Pete and Reiney) were about to give up on hunting the Lost Dutchman mine, concluding that Waltz had told them a fable, until they found those Wells Fargo receipts for a quarter million in gold shipments by Waltz.

Just found them? Where? And at best just another third hand maybe sorta thing so far.

It actually makes sense that the LDM should have produced about that much (or more) based on the Holmes assay report

another iffy thing

and the amount of rock removed from the mine,

another iffy thing

and finding those receipts gave the Petrasches the incentive to hunt for the mine, since they now knew that Waltz had shipped a sizable amount of gold not just the few thousand he had at the end of his life.

We do not have those receipts, the Wells Fargo official historian claims they never did any shipping in Arizona in that time period, (we can prove that incorrect, while there may not have been Wells Fargo stages in AZ, they were certainly doing business in AZ in the time period, mostly through contract agents however, but with official Wells Fargo authority)

The the paperwork would have indicated the agent.

so in the long run they do not make a big difference in helping to find the mine. It is usually pointed to by the skeptics as phoney, made up etc and even claimed to be "disproved" which is also not true.

As an investigator I'll point out that so far we have nothing on it.

If Waltz shipped the gold it hardly makes any difference as to where the proceeds went, for one thing many old timers did not believe in banks in those days and for another there are not that many records for the time.

Still it has to make sense of some sort. To where? What of the proceeds? Why would he have nothing to show for it?

Actually you were on a far better track to find the Lost Dutchman mine, or just a plain vanilla gold mine by the methods you were using previously, those geological studies done by the USGS shortly before the area was declared a wilderness area. The geology around the edges of the wilderness area are the most promising for finding gold and silver, as you probably already saw. The fact that several rich gold mines were discovered in the Goldfield area, might be the very best clue to the location of Waltz's mine, since that area was considered a part of the Superstition mountains when Waltz was alive, not to mention the coincidences in the routes taken by some of the early Dutch hunters.

If JW did mine there it is all gone now

Heck there is even gold inside the Lost Dutchman state park for that matter, which is totally off-limits to touch (you would need to dig to get at it, and that is verboten inside the state park).

The records show the huge mineral mines in the band south of the supes. The main mineral investigation prior to the wilderness designation far as I can tell was MINERAL RESOURCE POTENTIAL OF THE SUPERSTITION
WILDERNESS AND CONTIGUOUS ROADLESS AREAS
MARICOPA, FINAL, AND GILA COUNTIES, ARIZONA

But they did little gold sampling for some reason.

So many geologic reports to read ...

The likely (surface) places for ore are where the old schists outcrop and perhaps the caldera rims, especially where faulting concentrated vein deposits.

There could be localized occurrences so far 'unknown' at least to the general public, but maybe not.

That JF Ranch area is interesting.

Economic gold is one thing, pickin' out rich ore is quite a leap. Weren't those Goldfield mines produced at less than oz/ton?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

I can understand that, what I don't understand is Oro has attempted to answer your questions with information so you can come to your own conclusions and for some reason you seem..................disappointed and upset with him.

Rest assured I am neither disappointed nor upset with anyone. And I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[sgtfda]

A gift from Tom. A lot went on back in those hills. Rich gold strikes. Bodies found. LDM found a hundred times. Truth is we will never know if the LDM was found and worked. It is a fact a lot of minerals came out of those mines. Gold silver copper. Look at where the old timers in the know filed their claims. That is where you will find gold today. Gold is where you find it. You will improve your chances by looking where it was found before. Prospecting and treasure hunting is two different things. How many treasure hunters follow in the footsteps of the hundreds that failed over the years following bad clues. Think outside the box. Think like a prospector. That is how the target was found in the first place. What was shipped over a hundred years ago means nothing. What you can find today counts. Old gold new gold. Still gold from the Superstitions and as you can see from my gold thread no one is posting samples. Speaks for its self. So follow the wrong stone map trail and follow the old clues and you will have nothing to show also. But who knows maybe you will!

 

[Springfield]

... How many treasure hunters follow in the footsteps of the hundreds that failed over the years following bad clues. Think outside the box. ...

Thanks for the rational statement. Unfortunately, that LDM box - decorated with the same old faded wallpaper - is too comfortable for most. Who provided all that faded wallpaper, and more importantly - why?

 

[sgtfda]

Think outside the box. Hmmmmmm! Just occurred to me. Think outside the soapbox and matchbox. Wonder what goes through Clays mind staring at the matchbox

 

[cactusjumper]

Think outside the box. Hmmmmmm! Just occurred to me. Think outside the soapbox and matchbox. Wonder what goes through Clays mind staring at the matchbox

Frank,

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Does Clay have the matchbox?

Tom's "Chronological History" is a great source. He told me he was coming out with another edition......this one for sale to the public. Hard bound (Leather) only went to libraries, and a very few to others.

Take care,

Joe