When did Waltz bring his nephew?

[Idahodutch]

I have this question about time lines, because it occurred to me that if Waltz buried/covered his mine after finding Weiser dead upon his return ...... which mine was the nephew going to help work?

I wonder if there was ever a nephew that came ... at all.
It just does not seem to fit with the rest of the story.
Waltz already covered and cleaned things all up. Just left caches for himself.
Why bring a nephew?

Please ..... I am not looking for a bickering match, but actually welcome responses both ways.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

It is believed by some, and with at least some hard evidence that Peter Backens was Waltz nephew. Backens came to America at least before 1864 because he was a filer on a mining claim with Waltz in the Bradshaw mountains. He is well recorded from Germany to America and for a time while in America then about 1873 suddenly disappeared from the scene never to be heard from again.

 

[Idahodutch]

It is believed by some, and with at least some hard evidence that Peter Backens was Waltz nephew. Backens came to America at least before 1864 because he was a filer on a mining claim with Waltz in the Bradshaw mountains. He is well recorded from Germany to America and for a time while in America then about 1873 suddenly disappeared from the scene never to be heard from again.

Matthew,
Thanks for sharing that information
Assuming Backens is the nephew, his parting with his uncle sounds to have happened on or after 1873.

Do you know what year approximately it was, that there was a mishap with supplies, and Waltz went to Florence, leaving Weiser at the ravine?
Idahodutch

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
Thanks for sharing that information
Assuming Backens is the nephew, his parting with his uncle sounds to have happened on or after 1873.

Do you know what year approximately it was, that there was a mishap with supplies, and Waltz went to Florence, leaving Weiser at the ravine?
Idahodutch

Idaho,

I am not certain but it must have been very early on after the mine was discovered. No one ever gave a time frame for Weisers death.

The closest we can guess is the story John Walker told that Weiser came to his home at Sacaton in bad shape and Walker tried to nurse him but Weiser died. This according to Walker occurred about 1870 or 1871.

 

[Idahodutch]

Idaho,

I am not certain but it must have been very early on after the mine was discovered. No one ever gave a time frame for Weisers death.

The closest we can guess is the story John Walker told that Weiser came to his home at Sacaton in bad shape and Walker tried to nurse him but Weiser died. This according to Walker occurred about 1870 or 1871.

Matthew,
That time frame between Weiser death to Backens disappearance, (~1871 - 1873):
One account has Waltz saying that right after Weiser death, is when he buried and covered up his mine ... cleaned up so no trace.
Another account has Waltz/nephew conflict ending in Waltz killing his nephew.

Could both accounts be true ... so to speak.
The time frame it seems would allow for it.

Thank you again Matthew.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

I am interested in what you all think about the nephew ...
- did it happen where Waltz ended up killing him?
- Did Waltz ever take the nephew to the mine?
Then the implications about when Waltz buried and covered up the mine.
Maybe he omitted his nephew when talking to Julia and Rhiney?
Maybe Julia omitted the nephew when talking to Bicknell?
Maybe his nephew helped Waltz bury and cover up everything?

It would be interesting to read what others here have to say about Waltz and his nephew

 

[Ponteach]

you forgot the question about when Waltz, went for his partner in Tucson, after he got the mine from Miguel Peralta, that was Weiser, a friend he know from Germany and came in usa from the same
ship, do you think this Weiser was the nephew.

 

[Idahodutch]

you forgot the question about when Waltz, went for his partner in Tucson, after he got the mine from Miguel Peralta, that was Weiser, a friend he know from Germany and came in usa from the same
ship, do you think this Weiser was the nephew.

Ponteach,
That did cross my mind as well
I think it was Matthew that said the name Weiser means Wise Guy.
Maybe the nephew was that, in eyes of Waltz?

If they were the same person, then what about the gap in time .... 1871 (Weiser death) -vs- 1873 (last Known record of Backens) ?

 

[Idahodutch]

Ponteach,
That did cross my mind as well
I think it was Matthew that said the name Weiser means Wise Guy.
Maybe the nephew was that, in eyes of Waltz?

If they were the same person, then what about the gap in time .... 1871 (Weiser death) -vs- 1873 (last Known record of Backens) ?

There also are some that say the Weiser/Walker story line did not happen.
I read an account many years ago, but have not studied it.

I remember, from the account I read, I was somewhat confused.
Many say Weiser can not be proved.

Was Backens (Waltz nephew) aka Weiser?
It would have been nice to have photographs

 

[Idahodutch]

Idaho,

I am not certain but it must have been very early on after the mine was discovered. No one ever gave a time frame for Weisers death.

The closest we can guess is the story John Walker told that Weiser came to his home at Sacaton in bad shape and Walker tried to nurse him but Weiser died. This according to Walker occurred about 1870 or 1871.

Matthew,
There probably isn’t information available, but if Weiser died of injuries, while being nursed by the Walkers ... did they bury him there on their property, or take him into town?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
There probably isn’t information available, but if Weiser died of injuries, while being nursed by the Walkers ... did they bury him there on their property, or take him into town?

Idaho,

Walker's home was Sacaton, the Pima reservation, so Weiser was probably buried in one of the Indian cemeteries there. And no, the Pima did not keep detailed records of internment until the 20th century. Walker allegedly had a map drawn from Weisers description of where the mine was. Walker gave this map to Thomas Weedin the editor of the Florence Blade newspaper. There is a copy of that map at the Superstition Museum and at the Goldfield ghost town museum.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The Weiser map as drawn by Weedin from Weisers original parchment map. Weedin later gave this map to Jim Bark and Sims Ely.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
Thanks for sharing.
So two different accounts for the final days of Weiser.

For this to be attributed to LDM lore, it had to be tied to Waltz and his gold mine.
I am having difficulty seeing how in 1870 or 1871, before there was any legend, for this to be what happened.
It would be some 25 years later, before the 1895 article introduced the story, and some of the characters.

I am not saying the Walker account is false, just that it seems hard pressed to have happened that way.
Where do you sit with it?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
Thanks for sharing.
So two different accounts for the final days of Weiser.

For this to be attributed to LDM lore, it had to be tied to Waltz and his gold mine.
I am having difficulty seeing how in 1870 or 1871, before there was any legend, for this to be what happened.
It would be some 25 years later, before the 1895 article introduced the story, and some of the characters.

I am not saying the Walker account is false, just that it seems hard pressed to have happened that way.
Where do you sit with it?

I have no idea where you are coming from with your question.
In 1870 - 1871 there was no Waltz lost mine legend either. The facts and story did not come out and was pieced together until after Waltz death. The Walker Weedin accounts were pieced together with the story after facts of Waltz and Weiser became knowledge. While Waltz was alive he had no knowledge that Walker had tried to save Weiser. All this came out later.

This is why I hesitate to get involved in these discussions and this will be my last post.

 

[Idahodutch]

I have no idea where you are coming from with your question.
In 1870 - 1871 there was no Waltz lost mine legend either. The facts and story did not come out and was pieced together until after Waltz death. The Walker Weedin accounts were pieced together with the story after facts of Waltz and Weiser became knowledge. While Waltz was alive he had no knowledge that Walker had tried to save Weiser. All this came out later.

This is why I hesitate to get involved in these discussions and this will be my last post.

Matthew,
Not trying to frustrate anyone, rather to talk or bring up the different endings to Weiser.
- in Bicknell?s 1895 relating, he has Waltz saying Weiser died at the ravine ... killed by Apache.
And he also said he burried Weiser up in the outcrop mine. After filling it all up, put a big cache on top and covered the whole thing.
- in this Walker account, Someone by name of Weiser was severely injured, and was fleeing for his life. In process of getting aid from Walker, Weiser apparently said he and a partner had been working a gold mine but sometime after his partner had to leave for supplies, Weiser came under attack. And then he must have given directions to the mine. .. the Weiser Map. Then he dies.
Weiser must have figured Waltz was killed too, or why tell all like that?

So someone sat on the information for that 20-25 year period .... Walker or Weedin.
I don?t know when it was that Walker was to have given the information to Weedin.

My question was these 2 accounts of Weiser .... they both can not be correct.
So which account do you tend to give more weight?

It is just a question, but if you would rather not answer it, I will respect that.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Ponteach]

Just to add,
the map Matthew post is authentic, there is about 15% good clues on it, just misplaced like the Julia map, misplaced directions and elses,
just to show i am not wrong, see the Salazar survey from Clay Worst 1984, page 2, or page 28 on the document, crossing near two buttes,
they called Los Picachos Diversos, the same ones Dos buttes from the map Matthew post, on Salazar survey it was for a Peralta map,
the Weiser map is for the Waltz mine, = Waltz mine is a Peralta mine and theses Dos Buttes does exist.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
Not trying to frustrate anyone, rather to talk or bring up the different endings to Weiser.
- in Bicknell?s 1895 relating, he has Waltz saying Weiser died at the ravine ... killed by Apache.
And he also said he burried Weiser up in the outcrop mine. After filling it all up, put a big cache on top and covered the whole thing.
- in this Walker account, Someone by name of Weiser was severely injured, and was fleeing for his life. In process of getting aid from Walker, Weiser apparently said he and a partner had been working a gold mine but sometime after his partner had to leave for supplies, Weiser came under attack. And then he must have given directions to the mine. .. the Weiser Map. Then he dies.
Weiser must have figured Waltz was killed too, or why tell all like that?

So someone sat on the information for that 20-25 year period .... Walker or Weedin.
I don?t know when it was that Walker was to have given the information to Weedin.

My question was these 2 accounts of Weiser .... they both can not be correct.
So which account do you tend to give more weight?

It is just a question, but if you would rather not answer it, I will respect that.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

I need to make a correction.
I was out back taking care of things, and there is a possibility that both those 2 accounts could be.

The only way I can think of is there would of had to be another person involved .... some who for whatever reason, just happened to be in the vicinity of the ravine, but was alerted to the presence of Waltz and Weiser, or the maybe the commotion with the mule spilling their food bags on the ground, or maybe just the attack on Weiser. From afar this person could have watched to see what was going on in the ravine.
Weiser would then upon getting attacked .... flee and then Walker tells the rest for Weiser.
This other person perhaps if they saw the departure of Waltz, and then later, the Indian attack, and Weiser fleeing, with the Indians giving chase.

So he seized what looked the perfect opportunity to check out the ravine interest.
But the return of the Indians end up in him being the one tortured beyond recognition.
And him getting burried by Waltz (Waltz thinking it was Weiser)..

Do I think something like that happened?
If both accounts are thought to be true, then I have to admit the possibility.

I was hoping to get a little more feedback ... just trying to explore the stories

 

[Idahodutch]

I need to make a correction.
I was out back taking care of things, and there is a possibility that both those 2 accounts could be.

The only way I can think of is there would of had to be another person involved .... some who for whatever reason, just happened to be in the vicinity of the ravine, but was alerted to the presence of Waltz and Weiser, or the maybe the commotion with the mule spilling their food bags on the ground, or maybe just the attack on Weiser. From afar this person could have watched to see what was going on in the ravine.
Weiser would then upon getting attacked .... flee and then Walker tells the rest for Weiser.
This other person perhaps if they saw the departure of Waltz, and then later, the Indian attack, and Weiser fleeing, with the Indians giving chase.

So he seized what looked the perfect opportunity to check out the ravine interest.
But the return of the Indians end up in him being the one tortured beyond recognition.
And him getting burried by Waltz (Waltz thinking it was Weiser)..

Do I think something like that happened?
If both accounts are thought to be true, then I have to admit the possibility.

I was hoping to get a little more feedback ... just trying to explore the stories

So ..... this thread drifted a bit, but as for the nephew .....
But, I do not think it likely that the nephew was Weiser ... but who knows.

 

[Idahodutch]

Just to add,
the map Matthew post is authentic, there is about 15% good clues on it, just misplaced like the Julia map, misplaced directions and elses,
just to show i am not wrong, see the Salazar survey from Clay Worst 1984, page 2, or page 28 on the document, crossing near two buttes,
they called Los Picachos Diversos, the same ones Dos buttes from the map Matthew post, on Salazar survey it was for a Peralta map,
the Weiser map is for the Waltz mine, = Waltz mine is a Peralta mine and theses Dos Buttes does exist.

Ponteach,
Glad you spoke up. I just saw your post about the map.

 

[markmar]

IMHO, Wiser if would been Waltz partner or nephew, he would never make it out from the place of the camp of LDM mines, because the position of those on the mountain. Both are a dead ends with little chance to escape climbing down the steep mountainside. So, in this case Wiser would been murdered at the site and never could make it to Walker house, unless he killed all the Apache before.
And here come to the scene the Ludis, who IMO were the men that rescued Ramon Peralta at the bar, and after that the Mexican gave them a mine in the Superstitions. But that mine was/is a silver mine ( known as Sheep mine from Edgar Cayce vision ) and not the LDM inclined shaft. Is more possible to make it out the mountains from that mine if the attack occurred evening and the Apache stopped chasing Wiser in the night time than if the attack occurred in the morning or noon.
So, the logic says how Wiser that make it to Walker house, was not Waltz partner.