Why Some People Find Few Old DEEP Coins

[Michigan Badger]

Here's something I just posted at another site in answer to a Tesoro Cortes owners problem with so many pops and crackles while hunting in discrimination. Maybe this will help somebody here because the basic principle holds true with all brands (Fisher, Whites, Minelab, Nautilus, Garrett, etc.).

Please add your suggestions also 8)

Here's my post:

Nearly all metal detectors crackle and pop while hunting in discrimination mode (some more than others). The discrimination doesn't always eliminate all signals; it will sometimes just deteriorate the unwanted signals more so they're easier to identify as unwanted targets.

Discrimination can be good or bad. It can be great for shallower targets (down to about 4 or 5 inches) but bad for the really deep stuff.

The deeper the target gets, the more its signal deteriorates simply because of ground mineralization. Therefore one could think a deep corroded Indian cent is really a discriminated item (follow me?).

This is one reason why some people find very few old coins and relics.

The answer is to use the machine a lot and study it. It's best to start with low discrimination and dig almost all targets at first. Then as you learn the TID readings (patterns) and sounds you can turn the discrimination up.

Hope this helps.

 

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[kenb]

Thanks guys Very good posts, there is some great info here. keep it coming!

kenb

 

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[Michigan Badger]

I use a Tesoro Silver Sabre Umax, and all the hits sound the same to me. I've buried different coins and a gold ring and they all have the same *beep*. Is my hearing so bad that I'm missing out on some of the detectors features? I am hard of hearing to a degree (the wife can attest to that) due to time in the military, but I wear headphones and use the lowest discrimination that I can. I don't get out enough to really know my detector backwards and forwards, each time I go out I relearn it for about the first 15 minutes.

So the question is this: Does my detector have a different beep for different metals?

Silver coins can have a very special smooth sound down to within maybe 2 or 3 inches of your detector's maximum depth for an object that size.

My Tesoro DeLeon was so obvious on shallow silver (down to about 5 inches) that I'd just laugh when I hit on one. I was right 90% of the time when I heard that certain sound.

Let's discuss this a little more.

I hunt mainly large iron or copper relics. So, when I hunt I'm mainly listening for those big blasting signals.

For coins one needs to take the opposite approach and listen for those small (tight) solid signals that fade off quickly if one raises one's coil about 3-5 inches. If you mainly want coins and jewelry and you're hunting a very trashy site, you must ignore all those large (I'm referring to the physical size) blasting signals and seek those fainter smaller ones.

Coin signals are very tight and usually (90% of the time) sound good from all directions. Once you dig enough coins it's almost like the signal sounds roundish in shape. The slightest rise in the coil and the signal is already deteriorating away. One only learns this sound by actual hunting experience.

Old buried copper and silver coins usually don't sound like coin garden planted coins. The reason being the undisturbed ground mineralization and nearby trash. I've dug Mercs that where in a bed of nails. The nails corrupted the pure silver tone and meter reading but I decided to dig anyway due to a repeatable "broken beep" and suspicious meter reading.

Badger

 

[bazinga]

Some people also don't survey the ground that they are detecting in. Anytime I hunt a new location I dig various signals at different depths to determine the ground conditions and how deep old coins may or may not be. I've gone to old spots and dug modern pop cans at 10" deep. You can bet that there is fill dirt there and I generally run from those locations.

But then there are exceptions to the rule.... I was hunting a school built 10 years ago or so and was finding deep pop cans. But I also found two earlier indian head cents in the top 3". Granted this doesn't happen to often, but it can happen.

One of the old parks here in town that I hunt often is a bit odd as far as depth goes. One part of it I have been finding Indian Heads in the 3-5" range in harder soil. Then just a few hundred feet away the ground is that beautiful black loamy soil that we LOVE to find! The indian heads were roughly 7-8" deep and wheats about 5-6"

 

[-Jones-]

Ya never know just how deep an ol coin maybe. In the midwest, the freeze thaw action of the ground will send a coin up and down through the years. I found this 1853 penny just 2 inches deep. It was in a residental yard.

 

[Michigan Badger]

That large cent is a true beauty! That coin would make anybody's day.

And too, you're exactly right. This holds to most states I think.

I dug two 1865 Indian cents this summer and one was about 2 inches deep and the other maybe 3.

Most of the lumberjack relics I dig are at least 100 years old (in the ground at least that long) and about 80% were less than 4 inches deep. Many were still in the sod about 2 inches down.

And I'm talking big heavy iron axe heads, saws, blacksmith tools, etc.

Thanks to everyone who has posted here...you're all great and most helpful to many.

Badger

 

[-Jones-]

That large cent is a true beauty! That coin would make anybody's day.

And too, you're exactly right. This holds to most states I think.

I dug two 1865 Indian cents this summer and one was about 2 inches deep and the other maybe 3.

Most of the lumberjack relics I dig are at least 100 years old (in the ground at least that long) and about 80% were less than 4 inches deep. Many were still in the sod about 2 inches down.

And I'm talking big heavy iron axe heads, saws, blacksmith tools, etc.

Thanks to everyone who has posted here...you're all great and most helpful to many.

Badger

Badge,

for all the "junk" I've dug over the years, that large cent is one of my "prize" finds!

 

[hollowpointred]

Ya never know just how deep an ol coin maybe. In the midwest, the freeze thaw action of the ground will send a coin up and down through the years. I found this 1853 penny just 2 inches deep. It was in a residental yard.

i might as well chime in on this subject as well. i have noticed that old coins will typical be much deeper in a grassy field as opposed to a heavily wooded area. for some reason in really thick woods the coins i have found have been surprisingly shallow. i could speculate as to why that is but i would only be guessing. all i know is that around here it seems to be true.

 

[JW]

Great stuff here, lots of good insights and information. Recently I have noticed that even two different machines of the same brand and model can respond to deep targets differently. For example, my Exp2 sounded different than my friends at the same settings on the same target. He had his machine overhauled at Minelab recently and when it returned (it had died, dead) it sounded different that in its original life. It still worked great but it wasn't the same. I think even the same coil make and model will sound different than the next. For golf clubs for example the ratio is 300:10, out of 300 clubs made only maybe 10 will be the same. I have heard from coil builders that getting two coils wound exactly the same is very tough and not without very special and complicated tooling which I doubt doesn't exist yet.

When I hunt its in all-metal with tone identification all the time. I know with the Explorers that rusty nails can sound like a low tone with a high 'pink' sound at the end. In discrimination (iron-mask) all you hear is the 'pink' sound, almost like a quarter signal but sharp and shorter. If there is a coin under of adjacent to iron the sound is very similar and in some cases exactly the same because the detector can't react that quickly to electronically seperate very close targets. In some cases if the coin is 'visible' enough to the detector you can get a mixed tone signal (not iron & not coin) which can be misread for a trash target. Knowing this and not wanting to miss goodies here and there, I run 'wide open' 98.5% of the time. I actually really like hearing every piece of metal in the ground, its like x-ray vision. Tone ID is great as well and I highly recommend it for all types of hunting.

Well, I hope I have added a little something on par with the great advice above. HH and remember there is more to life than detecting... (just kidding!)

JW

 

[Michigan Badger]

I hadn't intended on mentioning detector brands here but I'll throw this into the pot because we're most likely near the end of this thread's life anyways.

I use the Nautilus IIB that is usually ignored by most THer's today because it's considered to be ONLY a relic machine. This of course is not true in actual use.

One of the many features of the Nautilus is its ability to manually match the coil to the electronics. Like the poster above mentioned, detectors can differ from one machine to the next. This difference is mostly due to a different coil to electronics balance. The electronic components are the same in all models of the exact same type. If an electronic componet fails, usually the whole unit goes dead. This is not so when the coil gets out of balance. It will still work, but not as intended.

Nautilus realized this years ago and purposely made their detectors so that the coil could be kept in perfect balance with the electronics. If the coil is not in perfect balance, the machine loses some functionality.

It has also been known for many years now that great temperature changes can affect the coil balance. With my Nautilus I need to re-set the coil balance quite often due to this very factor. By bringing the coil back into balance I can gain 3 to 6 inches in depth. Even the flow of DC current through the tiny hair-thin coil wires can change coil balance.

To me, having a detector with an epoxy sealed non-tunable coil is much like having a detector with a pre-set ground balance. If the ground balance can not be adjusted either manually or automatically, the machine loses depth and sensitivity. The same is true with the coil balance.

I've seen this many times while using the Nautilus IIB. I'm hunting and not finding any really deep targets. Mostly stuff down to about 6 or 7 inches is all I'm getting. Then I balance the coil (takes about 30 seconds), and start to immediately find targets at 8 to 14 inches. I've now learned to balance the coil about every 15 minutes. It's very simple to do but is necessary due to how detectors in general work.

I could go on to discuss Nautilus's DMC signal (two signals at once) and why this is essential even for coin hunters but I've most likely bored you all enough.

Best to everyone and remember this...all the top brand companies make wonderful detectors. The biggest problem isn't features...it's lack of research.

Badger

 

[bazinga]

Best to everyone and remember this...all the top brand companies make wonderful detectors. The biggest problem isn't features...it's lack of research.

Badger

Very true!

 

[JW]

Badger, I have noticed that you use a Nautilus and took note of your dual response comment a ways back. Sounds interesting. Sorry I mentioned a machine, the cool thing with tone ID is that a bunch of detectors have it so it doesn't just occur on an Explorer. I just mentioned the detector I happen to know best and since there is two around that I can compare i'm finding it very informative.

Someday you'll have to "bore" us with the dual ear response feature of the Nautilus.

Thanks.

JW

 

[Born2Dtect]

When I chose which detector to buy, I chose the Minelab Quattro later upgraded to Explorer II besides a great brand name reputation, I really liked the "DD" coil detection pattern. The pattern is like taking a wiper blade and moving it over the ground and the pattern is fairly uniform over the coverage area 2-3" wide 8-10" long and fairly uniform down to a depth of 6-18" depending on settings, conditions, coil size, soil conditions. All this said when using a standard concentric 10" coil the pattern is like an upside down cone with the detection pattern going down to a smaller 2-3" circle. With this in mind you would need to overlap swings , movings no more than 2-3" to get good coverage, I always read you should swing a coil and overlap by a half, on a 10 coil this would give a 2-3" gap of no detection. This would leave a lot of deeper area on average not detected than with a "DD".

I do think that some find older items through good research. Also knowing your detector and how it operates is key. Buy the way the previous post on this topic are great. Good job TNetters.

Ed D.

 

[Rusted_Iron]

When I hunt certain sites, I use the characteristics of the concentric coil to my advantage for the deep coins. Both coil types have their time and place for me. In the small area I've been hunting where I've found numerous coins and relics among a heavily nail-infested area, my concentric coil machine has been much better for me. In the more open field where targets are farther apart, I often go with the DD coil.

I often wish Minelab made a concentric coil, maybe 8 or 9 inch diameter, as an aftermarket accessory. I know I would definitely use it in certain areas.

 

[bazinga]

Ed makes a very good point about the double d coils and depth issues. To get maximum depth with a concentric coil you really need to overlap your swings a LOT! Double D coils allows you to cover the ground much more quickly while achieving maximum depth and also making you think of a woman's rack. Haha, sorry, had to add that in there

 

[Michigan Badger]

Badger, I have noticed that you use a Nautilus and took note of your dual response comment a ways back. Sounds interesting. Sorry I mentioned a machine, the cool thing with tone ID is that a bunch of detectors have it so it doesn't just occur on an Explorer. I just mentioned the detector I happen to know best and since there is two around that I can compare i'm finding it very informative.

Someday you'll have to "bore" us with the dual ear response feature of the Nautilus.

Thanks.

JW

Hey, no problem. I think all of us are just hoping someone will give us the opportunity to brag on our current choice of detectors.

You can do this anytime.

As for the DMC, those with much more knowledge of the process can do a much better job than I in explaining it. You can find lengthy discussions of this process (dual tones) on the web.

But if you think about it it's not really not too difficult to figure out why having both all-metal and discriminational sounds at once could be an advantage.

Best,

Badger

 

[Michigan Badger]

When I chose which detector to buy, I chose the Minelab Quattro later upgraded to Explorer II besides a great brand name reputation, I really liked the "DD" coil detection pattern. The pattern is like taking a wiper blade and moving it over the ground and the pattern is fairly uniform over the coverage area 2-3" wide 8-10" long and fairly uniform down to a depth of 6-18" depending on settings, conditions, coil size, soil conditions. All this said when using a standard concentric 10" coil the pattern is like an upside down cone with the detection pattern going down to a smaller 2-3" circle. With this in mind you would need to overlap swings , movings no more than 2-3" to get good coverage, I always read you should swing a coil and overlap by a half, on a 10 coil this would give a 2-3" gap of no detection. This would leave a lot of deeper area on average not detected than with a "DD".

I do think that some find older items through good research. Also knowing your detector and how it operates is key. Buy the way the previous post on this topic are great. Good job TNetters.

Ed D.

Thanks for the info Ed.

Generally I'd prefer the cone shaped detection field mainly for separating targets and pinpointing. With a cone signal you can zero-in on a signal simply by raising the coil (pinpointing) and also get a better reading of it in relationship to nearby trash. On the Nautilus we can just turn down the power to the coil and make the cone smaller and therefore accomplish the same thing. For deep targets it's sort of like changing to a smaller coil without having to make a physical change.

But when it comes to ground coverage, the Nautilus is so deep you're running almost the full diameter of the 10 inch coil at the depths where most coins are anyway. You might drop down to 8 inches.

Another plus for the Naughty is its ability to separate signals. I use my 10 inch coil even in super trashy parks. So far I've had no problem picking through the trash to get at the good targets. That DMC system is awesome.

My next coil will be the 15 incher and my CW relic hunting friends (they also dig lots of small coins) tell me nothing is deeper. But with that large coil the rod modification ("rod mod") is required (extra $100).

Some time in the future give the Naughty IIB with a 15 inch coil a try. It's a coin/jewelry finder on land and with a flip of a switch your ready for the salt water beach.

HH

Badger

Picture below is of the Nautilus IIB with the "rod mod" for comfort hunting. This unit belongs to a detector dealer down south.

 

[Burdie]

As usual Badger you have a great post here. Thanks.

Burdie

 

[EDDE]

not to get on a tangent but also glacial till/kame/moraine's
that are say 75 -90 percent gravel
targets sink SSSSSSSSSSSLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW
ive bug 100 yo shotgun brass and rimfire .32 cal. cases at just a few inch
50 yo nickels right on the surface

 

[Cobalt*Blue]

Thank you MB. This is the type of post I enjoy the most. More finds are left in the ground do to the human running the detector than the short commings of the machine. Being new, and a frugal New Englander, I started with my Bounty Hunter Tracker IV. Good little machine even with its $130 limitations. Well its paid for itself and I will upgrade sooner or later but not untill its limitations become far greater than mine. I really enjoy your posts. chris

 

[Mainedigger]

Badger...great advice!! I have a White's Prism III (LOVE IT!!) and I usually will first go over an area a couple times on the factory settings, then once I;ve done this and removed alot of the trash from the area, I will REALLY cover the area from all angles with the discrimination almost shut off completely and the sensitivity kicked up to the highest setting. This seems to work well for me and as you stated, seems to be when I find the deepest and oldest of my coins and jewelry. Every detector is different, even the same models, and other factors figure in as well..ground conditions, time of year (heavy frost the past winter for example) and also a big factor that is easily and often overlooked...battery strength...don;t always wait for the low battery indicator to come on before putting in new batteries or charging. Try a choice area where you;ve had success with some coins and then hit it again with brand new or fully re-charged batteries. There are all kinds of tips and techniques, the best way is to pick a way that works best for you and then use it and enjoy... Also NEVER forget the two KEY factors...PATIENCE and PERSISTENCE !!!!!!
Good luck and HH to all....
MD