Airborne80
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Wish it was mine. Please help ID
- Thread starter Airborne80
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creek astronaut
Bronze Member
i think you have a "motley".late archaic-woodland is the time period.is the base broken?looks like it has some damage to the right ear.real nice piece.
Airborne80
Bronze Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
- Messages
- 1,020
- Reaction score
- 6
- Golden Thread
- 0
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Detector(s) used
- Whites XLT Classic
Teknetics Delta 4000
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
- #3
Thread Owner
greg-rocks said:
Thanks Greg. Yes, the base is broken. Its great material and as I said, I wish it were mine
I will pass your thoughts on to the owner. Stay safe.
Neanderthal
Bronze Member
It's a Mississippian Kay blade, no Motley in KS.
creek astronaut
Bronze Member
you may very well be right neanderthal,or wrong.location on motleys are illinois,mo.,iowa,ok. into the southeast.and kansas borders 2 and nearly 3 of those states. it isnt unheard of for different types to travel small and sometimes great distances.if you look at both types they are almost identical other than era when made.the only thing that makes me think it is a kay blade is that it does have the off centered notching that i have now noticed on some of the kay blades pictured in my book.so neanderthal may be right on the type,but lets not be foolish and say there arent motleys found in kansas.
Neanderthal
Bronze Member
I swear, I get into this debate every 3rd time I post on any board. I'll say it once again....OUTLINE DOESN'T MEAN A THING.
It's possible that you could find an obsidian Clovis in Maine, a point knapped into the shape of Mother Teresa, or a straight politician / lawyer. It's POSSIBLE, but the probabilities of it are astronomical. OR........... It's possible that the point could be something that actually occurs readily in the area and is made with the same methodologies.
Motley are associated with Poverty Point cultural items (Louisianna, Mississippi, and down south). Outline doesn't mean a single thing when it comes to typology. As far as how "similar" they are, that's the only thing they have going for them. They are made by different people in completely different places and in completely different times. There are points that LOOK like Motley all over the U.S., but that doesn't make them Motley.
For the record, Kay Blade aren't known for a large "off centered notching". They are Caddo affiliated blade (often large) that are common in the Ozarks area of KS, eastern OK, SW MO, and western AR. Several were found at Spiro Mounds, and they highly resemble Cupp, Motley and a larger Godley (among others). They have been found in ceremonial as well as utilitarian context. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying and think that I'm saying the piece is ceremonial, it's not.
I'm far from a fool and as someone who has hunted KS and the area for many...many years, I'll say it. MOTLEY AREN'T KNOWN TO BE FOUND IN KANSAS.
It's possible that you could find an obsidian Clovis in Maine, a point knapped into the shape of Mother Teresa, or a straight politician / lawyer. It's POSSIBLE, but the probabilities of it are astronomical. OR........... It's possible that the point could be something that actually occurs readily in the area and is made with the same methodologies.
Motley are associated with Poverty Point cultural items (Louisianna, Mississippi, and down south). Outline doesn't mean a single thing when it comes to typology. As far as how "similar" they are, that's the only thing they have going for them. They are made by different people in completely different places and in completely different times. There are points that LOOK like Motley all over the U.S., but that doesn't make them Motley.
For the record, Kay Blade aren't known for a large "off centered notching". They are Caddo affiliated blade (often large) that are common in the Ozarks area of KS, eastern OK, SW MO, and western AR. Several were found at Spiro Mounds, and they highly resemble Cupp, Motley and a larger Godley (among others). They have been found in ceremonial as well as utilitarian context. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying and think that I'm saying the piece is ceremonial, it's not.
I'm far from a fool and as someone who has hunted KS and the area for many...many years, I'll say it. MOTLEY AREN'T KNOWN TO BE FOUND IN KANSAS.
creek astronaut
Bronze Member
first of all,i wasnt looking at the outline,i was looking at characteristics,large corner notches,expanding stem,triangular blade,flaking styles, BOTH TYPES ARE IDENNTICAL!and for them not to be known for off centered notches,i sure see alot of them in three different books that i have now looked at,i am in know way trying to say the id bases for a kay blade should say "off centered notches".and as far as area of production goes on motleys,overstreet and justice would disagree with you,they are not limited to missi,and la.i am not trying to compare something that looks like a mother teresa in maine. i am comparing a blade that the "experts"say is found in this area,thats all.you sound very well versed and knowledgable,but the only thing you have proved to me is that "you" havent found a motley in ks.and one last thing,you mentioned that you get into this debate every third post,well maybe wording your answers a little differently would help.i will SAY IT once again most of us dont type an artifact by the outline of it.nothing in archeaology is absolute,.not even close,we all have much to learn.
Neanderthal
Bronze Member
How many Motley or Kay have you found there in Ohio? How many of the types have you personally studied? I would wager that you are less than familiar with them, and that's ok. You are contradicting yourself in stating you aren't going by outline, when the "shape" is pretty much all you're bringing to the table in identification. LOOK at the publications you're relying on, it makes me sick to my stomach how they (especially O-street) are so full of misinformation. TRUE MOTLEY (do the research) are Poverty Point. Now, where is the Poverty Point culture and what are the identifiers? Now do a comparative study of Kay and several others.
As far as "large corner notches,expanding stem,triangular blade,flaking styles" - do you want me to name 10 other points that can describe? Let's be real here.
The fact is that Motley is just one of the MANY generic types that gets slung around everywhere. Almost no matter where the type is from, people still erroneously associate other points with them. Other types that get misidentified as occurring just about everywhere are Kirk, Big Sandy, Gary, Eden, Scottsbluff, Dovetail, Madison, Scallorn,..etc..etc. I could write a book on the typology errors that are commonplace with collectors.
For instance: The true madison point was named for belonging to a Cahokia toolkit, perhaps a preform. In other words, the eastern triangles called "Madison", aren't Madison at all. Or, "Tupelo" aren't Turkeytail at all, or there's no such thing as an Agee "A"? Or, there's no such point style as "Albertson"? Anyways, you get the drift.
Look, I'm not posting this to try to demean you. Believe it or not, I was trying to be of educational benefit to you. I rarely post unless I feel I can make a contribution somewhere. I respect your opinion and you have every right to it. I'm not going to argue with you on the subject, it's not worth it to me. However, I really do wish you would expand the research to more established references. There is no such thing as an instant-expert guide, and you will find that publications are generally only the authors opinions and subject to flaw. Some of them far greater than others.
I'll be the first to admit that I am NOT a good teacher, as I don't have the patience for it. But, I still have the Achilles heel of wanting to educate where possible.
As far as "large corner notches,expanding stem,triangular blade,flaking styles" - do you want me to name 10 other points that can describe? Let's be real here.
The fact is that Motley is just one of the MANY generic types that gets slung around everywhere. Almost no matter where the type is from, people still erroneously associate other points with them. Other types that get misidentified as occurring just about everywhere are Kirk, Big Sandy, Gary, Eden, Scottsbluff, Dovetail, Madison, Scallorn,..etc..etc. I could write a book on the typology errors that are commonplace with collectors.
For instance: The true madison point was named for belonging to a Cahokia toolkit, perhaps a preform. In other words, the eastern triangles called "Madison", aren't Madison at all. Or, "Tupelo" aren't Turkeytail at all, or there's no such thing as an Agee "A"? Or, there's no such point style as "Albertson"? Anyways, you get the drift.
Look, I'm not posting this to try to demean you. Believe it or not, I was trying to be of educational benefit to you. I rarely post unless I feel I can make a contribution somewhere. I respect your opinion and you have every right to it. I'm not going to argue with you on the subject, it's not worth it to me. However, I really do wish you would expand the research to more established references. There is no such thing as an instant-expert guide, and you will find that publications are generally only the authors opinions and subject to flaw. Some of them far greater than others.
I'll be the first to admit that I am NOT a good teacher, as I don't have the patience for it. But, I still have the Achilles heel of wanting to educate where possible.
*Molly*
Silver Member
Thats a nice blade AB. Listen to Matt he knows what he is talking about. Its definetly a Mississippian Kay blade without any doubt.
& Matt, you are a great teacher, you have taught me a hell of a lot & I thankyou. Ppl are far too quick to pick up an id book & swear by it, without doing their own research..
Also Overstreet is not acurate, I have seen a few types printed twice with different ids.
Thanks for sharing AB, hope you are doin' ok.
Molly.
& Matt, you are a great teacher, you have taught me a hell of a lot & I thankyou. Ppl are far too quick to pick up an id book & swear by it, without doing their own research..
Also Overstreet is not acurate, I have seen a few types printed twice with different ids.
Thanks for sharing AB, hope you are doin' ok.
Molly.
creek astronaut
Bronze Member
hey matt i am not disputing the fact to whether it is a kay blade or not. my first reply to this topic i didnt say it is a motley for sure.heck i didnt have any reference material in front of me when i said i think its a motley.then you posted "no motley in kansas"thats where we began our discussion.i was only trying to make this point-being that kansas is so close in proximity to the area of production for a motley, how could you rule out the possibility of a motley being found in kansas?sure it would be an uncommon find,and i dont think the odds would be astronomical to find one there.finding a dovetail in california would be astronimical.i agree with most of what you have said.i realize that all reference material is subject to critism and differing opinions.contradicting myself
how do you id points?do you not look at the physical characteristics?other than location found,type of material made from,how else would you id a point?what reference material do you use?overstreet isnt the only reference i use- justice,hothem also.i can find errors in all reference material,nothing is written in stone,reference materials are only a tool to help me form an opinion of what i have found or what someone else has found.i have formed most of my knowledge from 30 years of hunting and collecting artifacts,not from what this guy or that guy says.you listed some types,which when you boil it all down are just names some arche or collector labeled it. i havent found any kay blade or motley in ohio,nor do i expect to, that would be an astronomical find.you should write a book on the errors in typology i would actually find that interesting.that may be a good topic starter.if you would like to talk more on this posting that you and i have decided to take hostage send me a pm.
how do you id points?do you not look at the physical characteristics?other than location found,type of material made from,how else would you id a point?what reference material do you use?overstreet isnt the only reference i use- justice,hothem also.i can find errors in all reference material,nothing is written in stone,reference materials are only a tool to help me form an opinion of what i have found or what someone else has found.i have formed most of my knowledge from 30 years of hunting and collecting artifacts,not from what this guy or that guy says.you listed some types,which when you boil it all down are just names some arche or collector labeled it. i havent found any kay blade or motley in ohio,nor do i expect to, that would be an astronomical find.you should write a book on the errors in typology i would actually find that interesting.that may be a good topic starter.if you would like to talk more on this posting that you and i have decided to take hostage send me a pm.
Th3rty7
Silver Member
nice heated debate here, good to see, stay classy folks. Lets face it, it's all opinion, or mans best guess. Even experts / authenticators will tell you that......nice artifact whatever it may be.
P
pickaway
Guest
o they broke...they hurt 
