WMA Newsletter -state of affairs

[Hoser John]

Game is on full bore[h=1]Mining Alliance September 2016 Newsletter[/h]

You can download the Newsletter by clicking this link www.theminingalliance.com/index-newsletters_9.html
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[russau]

Always a good news letter with good up - 2 - date info.

 

[Goldwasher]

poor us...poor us...we're broke....send money here instead..maybe that will work.

 

[Tuolumne]

How come all the mining advocacy groups are poor, Amra doesn't want to tell you there poor, and PLP money, donated from amra funneled from other so called advocacy groups is frozen awaiting a big trial or something. The article mentions mining the miners, the big groups can't even pay a 3,000$ lawyer bill but can hold five raffel fundraisers that spends 3,000$ on the rented out venue for a miners meeting?

How many mining advocacy groups does it take to change a light bulb?

One but we can only make it happen after our yearly dinner raffel where we will generate funds to donate for the new bulb, which we can write off our taxes. And trust us, Brandon will never have to pay a dime for replacing his light bulb as long as " defunct out of money as soon as it comes in mining advocacy group" is around watching his back.....

Can any group list the total up to date donated money to Brandon? Seems like every group is claiming to pay off the same bills?!?

If a big mining groups moans about a tiny 3k bill we already lost.....

We need so called biggest advocacy groups to find big contributors not mine the miners.
Funny, I'm not rich but I have the feeling I have more money than all of these groups combined if they need to whine about a small 3k bill for Brandon.....

I think WMA is most honest out of Amra, PLP, at least they tell you they have no money upfront and not beat around the bush! We're poor, we have no real fund that generates money, we drain ever cent that comes in from the mined out miners, please send more.....

If everyone on tnet put in a buck we would be biggest group, what a shame.....

Imagine a tnet post constantly updated with incomming donations and current expenses for all to see. I've learned more about mining and laws readin these free post and education from really smart members than from any Amra Facebook post, PLP canceled fundraiser raffle or WMA newsletter combined. And unlike Amra -tnet members don't spend donations for thousands in gas money and bank card transaction fees! Mining advocacy groups needs a new NOI, time to try a new approach....

 

[jere64ca]

Funny, I'm not rich but I have the feeling I have more money than all of these groups combined if they need to whine about a small 3k bill for Brandon.....

, time to try a new approach....

Perhaps if you have all of this money and great ideas you should step up and take care of all the problems yourself instead of complaining about the efforts of others.

 

[Goldwasher]

I think the last think a group fighting in court should be doing is admitting they are pretty much broke. In the same breath as stating court is about money.

I fully disagree with Todds assessment of AMRA he doesn't have enough info.

What these groups should be doing is putting someone at the table with the regulatory agencies. Talking to people on the inside and having a presence there. The regulators would probably take them more seriously. You see they know the enviro groups are in it for money and accept it. They know they will end up with some of it. And that mining groups generate pretty much nothing and are reactionary.

Kieth Walker is the exception. It surprises me that he doesn't have more support considering his case is pro active. Its time you guys step up- and get to the table so we are no longer on the menu.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Why do so many intelligent people throw their money away? If these organizations are not "mining the miners," what should we call it then? The newsletter is nothing more than a note BEGGING us to send MORE MONEY. It does not say pick up a sign and meet us on the Capitol steps, it does not say help us educate lawmakers, teachers, and policy makers. It says ONLY LAWYERS can save us - Send Us Your Money!

The people in charge of the organizations clearly have NO CLUE how to run an advocacy organization, or how to spend donated dollars. Why don't we see statements from industry leaders like Keene, showing EXACTLY how much they have donated to "the cause?"

Backing an "unemployed professional dredger" and paying off Rinehardt's debt is going to do absolutely NOTHING to get California dredgers back in the water, and it certainly isn't going to help dredgers in other states. Nobody wins a fight by throwing "air" punches. Who benefits from all this fund raising? Seems to me it is just the people collecting the money. PLEASE prove me wrong.

 

[Tuolumne]

Perhaps if you have all of this money and great ideas you should step up and take care of all the problems yourself instead of complaining about the efforts of others.

Jere, not being transparent is a big problem. Your a Amra board member
Be transparent, how hard is it to state your income and expenses?
Still waiting for your details on fundraising expenses for the past two years.
Still waiting for explanations on why you spent thousands on gas money and bank card ATM fees?
How much went to PLP and is frozen, how much you really gave Brandon and no smoke and mirrors lame excuse like " look it up your self" or " we can't show out cards to the competition"

Here is good idea no one has done- mine the big miners and get a large donation that can be invested and used to generate funds on its own. Just like Sierra group they have enough in bank to generate money on its own.

Asking for donations and spending half on group expenses like gas money and bank fees is not helping anyone.

I don't have Info on Amra or they don't want us to know the facts?
Show me the info on donations.
Why is this info private and secret and why if asked am I treated like I'm overstepping my right to this non profit info? Stop acting like your hiding donations and be transparent.

Any group board member want to link up your advocacy groups page where I can see all the donations and expenses, Amra home website have any info?
No

Not even board members can give this without changing the subject.



Hey Jere, how much is it costing your group Amra to rent out meeting facility in brea for upcoming meeting for miners?
You can't find a church with a hall or campground to do it for cheap? You can't meet at a local field or claim and do it for free? Is it worth a few grand so miners can sit on thier butt and listen to pleas for more donations? Keep up the good work Jere

You can say your doing good but money talks and poor miners are still unrepresentative by advocacy groups in lobby effort.

Still waiting for Amra and PLP to really come clean with what goes on with donations.

Gold washer is right, we are barking and begging at the wrong people.

Terry is right, need to focus on lobby- show up at capital to educate like they just did in Oregon 200 people strong, lobby, change public perception - not have inclusive miners meeting, preaching to the choir...where raffel and funds will go to lawyers bills and board members gas money!

 

[jere64ca]

Again, if you do not agree with how others are proactively working on the problem maybe you two should step up and implement your own ideas to fix it, or shut up.

I would answer all of your questions but you have demonstrated a propensity to not believe anything anyone has to impute on the subject so I will not waste my breath on your silly games.

 

[JasonG]

What these groups should be doing is putting someone at the table with the regulatory agencies.

And that mining groups generate pretty much nothing and are reactionary.

I agree with this. Mining fights seem to be all reaction and no proactivity. We need to think beyond just the courts though. And in my opinion, beyond regulatory or management agencies. We needed to go on the offensive 10 years ago.

What some may not realize is that there are people in the mining community who have political connections and are/were willing to present the fight to the sorts of people in DC who can actually change things. The problem is that mining community as a whole would rather produce anger fueled rants filled with name calling and opinion than logical, fact based arguments that a person can read and present to committees. There is no unification. And there seems to be zero willingness to change or compromise, which is exactly what it will take since we don't have 10's of millions of dollars to lobby with.

Like it or not, the only way to really change things and stop fighting court case by court case as they arise is to take the fight to DC and change things at the root. And there are people there who are just as frustrated with some of these issues as we are when it comes to bureaucratic stonewalling and land access issues, but it's almost too late now because congressional subcommittee leadership is probably going to flip flop after this election.

 

[jere64ca]

There is no unification. And there seems to be zero willingness to change or compromise, which is exactly what it will take since we don't have 10's of millions of dollars to lobby with.

Like it or not, the only way to really change things and stop fighting court case by court case as they arise is to take the fight to DC and change things at the root. And there are people there who are just as frustrated with some of these issues as we are when it comes to bureaucratic stonewalling and land access issues, but it's almost too late now because congressional subcommittee leadership is probably going to flip flop after this election.

Agreed,,, Miners are a fiercely independent and opinionated group, maybe a little grumpy too,,,, like trying to heard cats with a leaf blower!

There are some quietly working away on legislation. Problem is, what would happen if it made it to the presidents desk?,,,, VETO! The election is crucial for the mining industry's future.

I have to disagree on the court cases. The law is actually, in the minors favor (I know, you cant tell from recent decisions). If the courts ignore the current law how do you think they will treat new legislation? They must be made to rule on LAW not AGENDA. The CEQA, Walker and Bohmker cases are all proactive cases. Just my opinion, they are all issues that need to be followed up on as they all have the potential to get us back in the water (and faster and cheaper than new legislation).

 

[Terry Soloman]

Again, if you do not agree with how others are proactively working on the problem maybe you two should step up and implement your own ideas to fix it, or shut up.

I would answer all of your questions but you have demonstrated a propensity to not believe anything anyone has to impute on the subject so I will not waste my breath on your silly games.

I think this is representative of the problem Jere. If we don't agree with you, then WE need to "shut up." If there was no problem, you and AMRA would GLADLY answer our questions, because that would make people more likely to donate. Obviously, you are not proud of the way AMRA spends donations. I still cringe when I see the "donated" paint jobs on the AMRA truck and trailer. What a waste!

Answer our questions, SHOW us where and how the donations have been spent. I think AMRA mainly benefits a very small number of you guys that like to drive around on gasoline bought with donated dollars, shooting YouTube videos with cameras bought with donated dollars, and acting like important people doing something courageous. Paper Tigers. Can you PROVE I'm wrong?

 

[JasonG]

I agree, we should definitely fight every single one of the court cases, I'm not suggesting giving up on them.

But the unfortunate reality of modern day law and courts is that often the side with the most money wins. And that's a battle we will never be able to compete with on even footing. But I still believe the fight is worth every penny we can put in.

But there are only so many representatives. The only way for a small opponent to beat a vastly larger one in a tilted system is by finding and then using leverage. We can get just as much power by getting 1 representative on our side as an infinitely larger lobby obtains by getting 1 representative on their side. And the structure of modern day congress also means that some representives are more powerful than others when it comes to specific subjects like our public lands and mining, these are the heads and members of the subcommittees, and there are even less of them.

President can always veto, but land management policy and law gives a lot of leeway for things to change without ever reaching a presidents desk. Those are the areas I think miners can get a toehold into. And really what I'm saying doesn't just apply to miners but any underrepresented group of people out there, this is how you change things as a small group if you are lucky enough to have people with the connections to start the communication process. Calling a senator's office is great, but it's not the same as having one willing to sit down with a personal 1 on 1 to listen.

We need a clear, easy to communicate message, with a clear and easy to communicate solution to present first though. Because these representatives need to present the same thing in Congress. Free from rant and opinion. Or we did. In my case, it's pretty much too late now anyways.

The other thing is we need solid unification. We need 2000 people to show up to a river in California and protest the dredging ban or show up at a road closure and protest, and sit and camp there for 6 months, or a year. 2000 miners can "close" off the road to the local BLM HQ with a long protest pretty easily too. And then comes the media coverage. This sort of thing. But that sort of movement requires leadership, and requires everyone to agree on the same message and again it needs to be simple and free from rant and filled with facts and logic.

 

[jere64ca]

I believe you understood what I said. Let me say it another way. If you are unwilling to do what you think will help maybe you should not criticize what others are doing.

In fact, from what I can gather, you think the solution is education of the general public of the miners plight. Is this correct? I actually do quite a bit of this in conjunction of my local club and would support your efforts if you choose to work to educate the masses.

 

[Terry Soloman]

I believe you understood what I said. Let me say it another way. If you are unwilling to do what you think will help maybe you should not criticize what others are doing.

In fact, from what I can gather, you think the solution is education of the general public of the miners plight. Is this correct? I actually do quite a bit of this in conjunction of my local club and would support your efforts if you choose to work to educate the masses.

I'm going to continue to criticize AMRA and all the other so-called mining rights organizations until they do something positive. Until they show PROGRESS. You sound just like the politicians we all dislike in Washington D.C. Stop trying to throw your failures back on us. ANSWER the simple questions about how your organization is spending donations. Give us REAL REASONS to support AMRA.

 

[Tuolumne]

Money and donations that drive change won't pan out here, no amount if miners donations or raffles will have a sociological shift in publics perception of small mining.
This is what Terry is getting at, we need to change the perception if small mining in the collective publics minds. This is done not with passive aggressive videos or Facebook post, it starts with educating the public on a multifaceted level.

People fund environs because it benefits all, water quality, fishes, Yosemite toads, mircron gold worms of tuolumne ect


No one will fund miners who mine for personal gain or pleasure.

Jere, fundraising is simple. Why not keep it simple like a church, at least give us a thermometer chart with funds raised and orgs goal, why is it so hard to just update your Facebook once a month with accounting? I would respect that if you did but you guys are scared of transparency.

I went to Humboldt state, center of hardcore tree hugers, hardcore environmental orgs and fish lovers ect.
I also know there are no hippies cleaning up trash, lead and merc out of any habitat the was small miners caretaker the land.

I think orgs like Amra need to speak at universities, find more students and professors to do more studies that show how much we clean. We need shift in public perception and it starts with education, not raffles and donation meetings and newsletters.

In fact again, tnet is way better than any org for brining these issues to talking points.

How about sponsoring a students project? Do a presentation at the cal geography conference on these hot button issues? We need a better education platform here in California because we cannot compete with greenies foundation money.

I know there are nerdy people that don't want to give money but can help make a map or network with educational orgs and l personally through my background in international political economy studies think that lobby the representatives and local regulatory agencies goes a long way to putting a personal touch on this big issue.

If Amra, WMA, PLP, others can include something more "outside the river" thinking we would be better off.

But they need to come clean with finances/transactions and donations because the more board members shy away from providing those details the more you distance yourself from progress and uniting miners big and small...

But really I'm not a professional advisor, how about taking the gas money Amra writes off and hire a pro agency that has history of advocating with public and regulatory agencies? Need a shift in the way miners try to help each other and not mine the miner with non transparent donation lead groups that are all broke!

I don't think this will happen soon-it's a multigenerational sociological shift that needs to be the goal- but I'm willing to help, just don't ask me for money unless you let everyone know where it's going and provide accounting on website we can see for ourself.

There are other Amra PLP board members lurking on here, grow up and address your small miners concerns and show us your records.

PLP- disgraced
WMA- at least they let you know they have no savings and need more donations for bills
Amra- just trust them, they don't need to show donations or expenses, or else they will look like PLP or WMA and thier hidden secret plan will be spoiled. Still waiting for those secret plans Jere that Shannon talks about on gold radio.

On radio Shannon said Brea hall cost $3,000 to rent for miners talk?
Jere you are really blowing 3$k worth of donations on a miners meeting in brea?

I think I can help you get a place at St Denis church next door in diamond bar for free, are you really working that hard to try not spending donations on wasteful expenses?

How much are you spending on that Hall Kevin tatum lined up for your group meeting that's suppose to bring nirvana to all our different clubs goals and aspirations?!? Thousands in Gas money, ATM bank card fees of hundreds, renting hall for thousands for a few hour meeting? Good job Jere, I feel blessed to know that you guys are doing great enough to blow all that money on your cause....

We need a different approach and we should listen to more people on tnet that have different non donation led approach to change....
Unless mega donor blesses a advocacy group with funds that generate funds we need a Copernicus flip in our advocacy philosophy.

 

[okbasspro]

As a member of this great forum and a claim owner. I once considered joining AMRA. But since every post I've ever seen from them they are begging for money or telling us to be a azz to the LEOs. Now after AMRAs rep on this forum puts upstanding members down and flat refuses to give any financial info to the miners that pay their bills and looks like a whole lot more. I would not give them a dime of my hard earned cash. We miners need a reputable group to take up the cause it's simple keep it honest and keep everyone informed and they would get the support needed to make a difference.

 

[Clay Diggins]

But the unfortunate reality of modern day law and courts is that often the side with the most money wins.

Bad legal arguments lose cases - not a lack of money. There are many modern day mining cases won and they are won because an appropriate legal argument was applied.

Blaming losing cases on lack of money or a prejudiced judge just demonstrates a misunderstanding of the laws and the legal system. There is a lot of that going on when small inexperienced groups make bad legal arguments. If a mining case is lost due to a bad argument it doesn't mean a proper legal argument can't win the same case if presented again.

I agree that sometimes courts make bad decisions but a lot of that is because they weren't presented with a single appropriate legal argument to work from. If miners keep arguing takings, using "shotgun" legal arguments or try to redefine their cases as they progress through the system they will continue to lose. That's not due to a lack of money.

The simple fact that you see good judges like Ochoa losing their patience with mining lawyer's courtroom antics should be a clue about the quality of those representing you. More money doesn't buy better lawyers but it will buy more bad lawyers and more time lost arguing losing cases.

Here's a group that has been winning cases for small miners for 120 years. They aren't small and they won't be making YouTube movies of panning demonstrations but they do take small miners problems to the right court with the right legal arguments.

If you want to win you need to back winners. Donate to whatever group you like but don't expect court wins by donating to a group that doesn't have a track record of winning cases. Most of the small mining support groups today don't even have a legal strategy beyond "we need more money for lawyers".

The modern day heroes of small mining legal battles have almost universally won with little to no money. Miners like Eno, Tierney, McClure, Waggener and Lex should be our inspiration that we can win just by sticking to one good legal argument. Those were important winning cases for small miners and none of them required more money or more lawyers to make their case winnable.

I have nothing against WMA or their members. If you feel you can build WMA into a good useful group representing your mining interests go for it. These people aren't crooks or in it for the money. The members I know are honest hard working people just trying to do the best they can. Criticize them for their effectiveness and you might get my attention. Criticize them for being opportunists is just silly, counterproductive and reeks of a hidden agenda.

In my opinion:
If the west's small miners don't stop beating each other up instead of joining together for their common good they will continue to be ignored by the very groups that could help them the most. I've heard several times in the last few years that court antics by small miners groups in California have been embarrassing to many serious mining groups that would like to see an end to the dredge ban and overreach by California state agencies. It's time small miners get serious about learning the mining laws and begin to support groups that have a track record of winning mining cases based on law rather than blaming judges or opposition groups for their failed efforts.

Heavy Pans

 

[okbasspro]

AMEN Clay

 

[winners58]

Its time to think outside the box, we have to step it up now...
I've talked to a lot of people, I get the same story "we've done that, we've tried that"
people have gotten old and tired after years of fighting this.
how many mining related organizations are there in Californian.
if your guess is between 20 and 30 you'd be wrong closer to 600+
rockhounding, metal detecting, prospecting groups, how many mining claims owners?
whats it going to take for everyone to come together, write your own legislation, pump it up with PR.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease people have been doing what they can as individuals for years.
thats what they want to pick us off one at a time, divide and conquer we are playing right into it.
how to start is, stop just being individuals, write letters to your state representatives, public outcry is all they will listen to...
identify your affiliation and what your group does, passing on to future generations, river clean ups,
scholarships, outdoor school, summer camps... each and every group does this.
what would be the effect on the well being of the county if prospecting and mining were just a page in a history book.