Wreck with Gold Coins washing up on the beach.

[old man]

Cornelius,
You have helped everyone on this forum. Divers and non - divers alike. Several years ago I did some extensive research and an on site search on a wreck that had a vast amount of coins washing up on the beach after storms. The research went back to the late 1800's.
I conducted a mag survey on site and spoke with people that recovered gold coins from the beach directly infront of this wreck. The wreck is located about 100 yds. from shore. I never dove on the wreck as this wreck was put on the back burner because of another site that I was involved in south of the border. Cornelius, if you are up to it and want to recruit divers and non-divers from this forum, I will coordinate with you and show you where the wreck is located in Virginia. I have one Spanish 2 reale from 1748 that was recovered from the beach. If someone has a boat around 25 feet and others can contribute, as well, as sign a non-disclosure, I am willing to let Cornelius put this operation together. Cornelius here's your chance to run an operation, it can start out small. What do you and the others on this forum say. I am willing to take a back seat and see if you guys can make this work.

 

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[pvet]

Ed, I have the boat and the time . Wait till spring and we will go get it.
Phil

 

[old man]

Phil,
First, I would like to see if Cornelius would like to put this together and run with it, with you and other members of this forum. It's up to Cornelius what he wants to do or if he even wants to get involved. Let's see what he has to say. In the interium, anyone that wants to get involved, here's your chance. Speak up.

 

[old man]

Cornelius,
The wreck and believe me, it is an old wooden wreck and it is off of a barrier island in Virginia. Actually, from my research there is also an old Engish Warship that was sunk in the same general area. I have some of the wooden timbers from the wreck in my basement. They were found on the beach. The project is yours, tell the people on the forum what you need and see if they can provide it, ie... equipment, man hours and whatever esle you need. I will provide you with whatever you need from me. It's your show, let's make it work.

 

[old man]

It's a deal Cornelius.

Old Man

 

[Cablava]

Sounds like you guys are going to have some fun. I do not know this area at all, but there is lots of info about the islands, for interest I have one incomplete list for you.

THESE ARE SOME OF THE SHIPS THAT CAME TO GRIEF OFF THE VIRGINIA COAST

Amaganzette swamped off Virginia
Anglo African sunk off Cape Charles
USCG Cuyahoga collision off Smith Point, Virginia
Doxie Girl sank off Virginia
Admiral Graf Spee
Ethel C. sunk off Virginia
Eureka collision off Virginia
Francis E. Powell torpedoed off Virginia
Gulf Hustler swamped off Virginia
Hanks swamped off Virginia
Juno Spanish ship lost in storm 1802according to decision of 4th circuit (Virginia v. Spain)Spain still owns her.
John Morgan collision off Virginia
HMS Kingston Ceylonite torpedoed off Virginia
La Galga hurricane 1750 Also contested in Virginia v. Spain, but Spain abonded her in 1763.
Lillian Lukenbach collision off Virginia
Marine Electric sunk off Virginia
Merida collision off Virginia
Ocean Venture torpedoed off Virginia
Santore struck mine off Virginia
Tiger torpedoed off Virginia
USS Washington bombed as target off Virginia
Winthorp foundered off Virginia
William D. Sanner collision Chesapeake Bay

 

[capela]

Well guys, i suggest you read this article before you go further !

http://shipwreck.net/gsarticle08.html


Capela

 

[old man]

Capela,
I know about Spain claiming all of their Treasure wrecks, I'm leaning towards this being more of the Pirate variety.

Old Man

 

[Dave45]

just another ploy by the government to keep the poorboy down, its all big business now nothing else

 

[gldhntr]

would the new laws concerning treasure found in virginia apply to this found in the water ? if so, would it even be worthwhile to pursue the wreck ? depending on when or if it is done , i may have an interest in helping out...i am not a diver, but have two good friends who are, and they are also trustworthy.. i just never liked the thought of being a fish lure, but could offer assistance on the topside..........................gldhntr

 

[Dave45]

good luck guys we're rooten for ya
Dave- wage slave

 

[FISHEYE]

any new shipwrecks found in the USA that are to get permits on by whatever state they are found in are now classified as Unknown or Pirate ships.

 

[gunner6170]

hmmm, i'd be glad to help with the man hours part. I think i can be trusted, if you like,
contact me and i can prove where i work at, a federal org that requires the utmost secrecy!
now working there isn't a secret, so i can say, just can't discuss what we do there. But if i
did anything in my personal life that caused my credibility to be in question, then i could lose
my job and clearances, and i won't let that happen!
As for this thread, i live near the barrier islands and would be more than happy to contribute in
some way. Being a part of the recovery would be the treasure for me! So holler if this gets
off the ground and you're looking for folks, whether its a driver to not get lost or a person to
help load or drive the boat or whatever, I'm game!

 

[1obxdiver]

I have been on the sidelines long enough, this is close enough to my neighborhood, I will dive and salvage, and will provide a platform....boat, that is , and can provide references, but would like to meet in person before total commitment, Dave, I'am interested in Virginia Gold

 

[grizzly bare]

I would love to be involved with a dive/recovery. Virginia Gold sounds great.
Before you go too far though, someone better check up on the laws of salvage and recovery. (see Cabela's post) As has been demonstrated before, Virginia claims anything less than three miles offshore is on state owned land and can't be touched without severe consequences. And since this is a public thread( and most of us know where the ship is) it can't be searched without the world knowing what is being done.
Virginia's new laws about treasure hunting and recovery (took effect 7/01/05) are Draconian at best.
Because this is in/next to/ close to a State land area, they can extend the three mile limit almost as far as they wish in the interest of protecting historically significant objects...even if they can't say what those objects are.
P.S. I think we should all get shirts made (like Old Blue) with Avocational Archeologist, Virginia Chapter printed on the pocket...and a smiley faced THer on the back.
grizzly bare

 

[Cablava]

Without a bit more detail it is dificult to decide what would be relevent to the program. For instance here is an article on part of that coast.

Pirates of Jamestown



By Blanche Kapustin

Long before the Virginia Company sent its three ships to settle Jamestown, the seas were infested with privateers and pirates. Privateers were the captains of private ships given written commissions, called letters of marque and reprisal, to search out and plunder ships sailing under the flags of particular countries, as retribution for very specific grievances. The privateer captain earned a share of the loot and the rest went to his government.

Privateers became pirates when they stopped attacking with commissions and were solely after personal wealth. Many famous pirates got their beginnings as respectable privateers, including Sir Francis Drake, William "Captain" Kidd, and Edward Teach or Blackbeard.

Piracy was of concern to the supporters and detractors of the Jamestown colony. The Virginia Company's sealed instructions to their English settlers dictated hiding the Jamestown colony 100 miles up a river and out of easy view of passing ships, a way to protect the settlers from territorial attacks by ships of other countries, such as Spain, which believed the English were encroaching on the Spanish New World, as well as independent pirates searching for personal wealth. Meanwhile, in London, the Spanish ambassador to the English court, Pedro de Zuniga, had written to warn Spain that Virginia was not only well placed to become a pirate outpost for attacking Spanish shipping channels but also was being populated by pardoned criminals who had the temperament to become incontrollable pirates. While the English feared Spanish pirates, the Spanish had just as much fear of English pirates.

Ironically, rather than attacks by foreign pirates, the Jamestown settlers should have been worried about attacks by their own countrymen.

In the fall of 1609, two seaworthy vessels remained at Jamestown, a colony under multiple sources of strain-attacks by the natives, famine, disease, and political upheaval. Some colonists were so desperate they had taken to cannibalism, so it is no surprise a band of approximately thirty colonists under the command of Captain Francis West, Lord De La Warr's younger brother, returned from a successful mission of trading for the natives' corn and decided to seize the Swallow and strike out on their own. Like all pirate ships, they made a contract amongst themselves on how to divide the spoils of piracy and set out to never return to the ill-fated Jamestown. Their departure robbed the colony of one of its two boats but also of the healthiest of the remaining productive settlers. The sixty colonists who survived till May 1610, were saved when the Bermuda-shipwrecked Sea Venture's passengers managed to arrive on two smaller vessels crafted from their boat's remains.

Sometimes the Englishmen hired to sail supply boats to the colony absconded with the wares for personal gain or stopped along their way to challenge foreign ships and steal from them.

Shipped supplies faced foreign pirates as well. In 1620, while Spain and England were at peace, a Virginia Company ship, the Margaret and John, blew off course in the West Indies and had to fight for six hours before escaping Spanish warships. The following year, the less fortunate Tygre was plundered by a Turkish man-of-war and two English boys were taken prisoner.

However, the first pirate adventure set purely on the Chesapeake centered around an English stockbroker, William Claiborne. A rapid social climber, Claiborne managed to acquire a royal license to conduct trade and promptly built his enterprise on Kent Island with dwellings, mills, gardens, orchards, cattle farms, and one hundred men. Meanwhile, he knew that Lord Baltimore was pressing King Charles I for a charter to establish a colony north of Virginia. When the charter was granted, to the Second Lord Baltimore, Cecilius Calvert, the territories for Virginia and Maryland clearly overlapped, and both claimed Kent Island. Claiborne refused to get a license for doing business in Maryland, since this would establish his as a Maryland endeavor.

Claiborne prepared his home for armed defense, and his brother-in-law committed the first act of piracy on the Chesapeake Bay by looting the cargo and making prisoners of a Maryland trading vessel that encroached too near Kent Island. Maryland seized Claiborne's Long Tayle in retaliation. Twice revenge missions were mounted, but both times Claiborne's ships were taken and people on both sides died. In a vast, untamed country, these two groups opted to kill and die over one island, and in the process they cemented piracy in the English colonies of the New World.

 

[Cablava]

Here is something of interest but not to this program, but it may be a place to do more research.

FROM THE COLONIAL RECORDS PROJECT-LIBRARY OF VIRGINIA

Survey Report No. 4385

13 May 1700 This document contains 21 depositions sworn before the Court of Oyer & Terminer for the trial of pirates in Virginia before Peter Beverly, Clerk of Arraigns. Some of the depositions are sworn by individual mariners, others by groups of mariners from different ships captured by Lewis Guittar. All ships were outward bound from Virginia, except the Pennsylvania Merchant, which was inbound from England. On 17 April (1699) the BALTIMORE was captured; on 18 April the GEORGE of Pennsylvania bound for Jamica. The master of the FRIENDSHIP of Belfast-Hans Haniel-was killed when the pirates fired on his ship. On 28 April 4 ships were captured within the Cape of Virginia including the PENNSYLVANIA MERCHANT, and the INDIAN KING of Virginia and the NICHOLSON. The PENNSYLVANIA MERCHANT WAS BURNT. The crews taken prisoner were confined in the hold of the pirate ship which was call LA PAIX (PEACE); some other being made to throw cargoes of tobacco and other goods to Lyn-Haven by the pirates. On 28 April Captain John Alread, Commander of H.M.S. ESSEX having heard of the pirates' exploits came ashore and informed H. E. Francis Nicholson H.M. Governor General of Virginia and Captain Passenger of H.M.S. SHOREHAM that there was a Pirate in Lyn-Haven Bay. Whereupon captain Passenger and His Excellency, together with Captain Alread and Peter Hayman Esquire, went aboard H.M.S. SHOREHAM and in coming out of the James River engaged the Pirate ship. Captain Guittar fought under a blood red flag. Peter Hayman Esquire was slain. After an engagement which lasted 6 to 8 hours John Lympany, a passenger from the PENNSYLVANIA MERCHANT, was ordered by Lewis Guittar to swim aboard the SHOREHAM to inform H. E. the Governor that there were English prisoners aboard his ship and that they and the ship would be blown up unless H. E. was prepared to grant Quarter to Guittar and his men if they surrendered. The Governor gave his promise. About 124 pirates were taken prisoner and some 25 to 30 pirates were slain. Between 40 and 50 English prisoners were liberated.

Survey Report No. 4378

Part I contains two documents 17 and 18 relating to charges of Piracy against Lewis Guittar and others and 18 also relates to a charge of Piracy against David Evand and Turlagh Sulivan and others.
8 November 1700. The warrant for the execution of Lewis Guittar and members of his crew for Piracy upon the High Seas.
21-21 October 1700. Not of Judgment at Sessions, sentencing Lewis Guittar and a number of his crew to death.

Survey Report No. 5918
An Admiralty memorial, dated 12 September 1701, recommending an allowance of 23 shillings a month for 5 months to Thomas Lacy and William Woolgar for the capture of the French pirate Lewis Guittar, within the Cape of Virginia.

Survey Report No. 6672
Lords of the Admiralty to the Navy Board. 17 September 1701. By direction of the Lords Justices, their Lordships ordered the Navy Board to pay Thomas Lacey and William Woolgar each five months pay as A.B. of the Royal Navy as a gratuity for their voluntary service on board H.M.S. SHOREHAM, Capt. Passenger, in her action with a pirate ship off the Capes of Virginia.

Conclusion: Thomas Lacy was listed as a sailor from one of the ships that was captured on the 28th of April 1699. Of the three ships captured, only the Nicholson was reported as leaving crew behind in its attempt to escape from the pirate. The above report makes it clear that Thomas Lacy served on the Shoreham during the battle. Thus, we conclude that he was a seaman aboard the Nicholson, was left in port in the hasty departure, volunteered to serve on the Shoreham and received his reward for this service.



Elton Lacey asked David Davis to draw a cartoon story based on the above facts. Research has not made it clear whether or not Thomas Lacy was captured by Guittar or whether he served on the Shoreham during the capture.

 

[Narked1]

All very interesting. The history, the possible problems with ownership, etc. Am new here on the site and not known within the community, so will throw this out to OldMan for consideration pertaining to personnel that would be required for the endeavor: I currently live and work in Egypt (for the past 8 years) as part of the USAID project. Retired Navy and a diver.....but not a navy diver. My home for 30 days out of the year is in Vah Beach. I would be interested in being part of the endeavor just for the experience (read that as "will work for food on the boat"). Not interested in the possible finds of riches, just to get the experience and have an adventure. That, and if I receive income from a Stateside source I lose my tax free status overseas for the following year, which amounts to a large chunk of change. Being retired military, I understand the secrecy requirements of the project. Would be willing to work for free for a 30 period (my annual vacation) during the spring next year. Will send you a resume' with both my military experience and dive experience if you would like.

Hey, a guy has to start somewhere to try and get some experience, right?

 

[rgecy]

OldMan,

I think most everyone will agree, the first step is research!?

If the research justifies it, then you can successfully put together some sort of partnership.? The partnership will underline and determine where funding will come from; investors, partners, etc. and how any profits will be divided.? Where you go from here is a little tricky.? What I would do is get on site and see if you can locate some artifacts to give provenance to the research.? This is where the Boats and equipment as well as divers and funding come into play.

Now, if we find something, is the State going to cooperate?? I think this is the biggest question of all!

The law is very clear in defining State waters and their claim to shipwrecks in these waters.? And there is no use in trying to Admialize it and circumvent the State authorities.? This has already been tried and failed.? You are going to have to convince the State to work with you and that there are significant historical benefits to salvaging this wreck.? Now, here come the Lawyers and Archaeologist!? And they take money, and I mean LOTS of it!

I am very interested and would like to see this move forward.? As a community, there is a lot we can do if we all come together!? I know we can come up with the Boat, divers, and other equipment needed. All it will take is a little coordination.
Robert in SC

 

[old man]

RGecy,
I totally agree with your comments. Since Cornelius is now in charge of this project, I think we should look to him for guidance. At this point I totally agree that a select number of people recon the site and then proceed from there. However, I think Cornelius said it right from the beginning. To paraphase, " look at this as an adventure and everyone will have a better experience. " To first look at it as getting rich, is the wrong thing to do in my book. That way no one will get hurt if that's what eveyone expects. If you do get rich, spent it wisely or throw a big party. That's up to the individual. Since I live in the North East and I believe you and Cornelius are from the South. I propose that we meet somewhere in between and sit down and I'll tell you what I know. However, it's up to Cornelius. Personally I just want people that have done salvage work and those that have lived it vicariously to come together and follow their dreams. I would have no trouble taking a back seat and letting people on this forum pull it off without me being there. If as a group, you want my help in the salvage end, I have no problem with that either. Cornelius the ball is in your court. Let us know what you want us to do?
Old Man
p.s. the only time that I can get away for a meeting would be on a weekend.