So you want to be involved in the Shipwreck Salvage business?

[ropesfish]

Hi folks - I wrote this a while back for those interested in what we do here at Search & Salvage and I thought someone here mogt find it useful. If you have anything to add that I may have missed out on... let me know:

GOOD MORNING!!
I wrote this lengthy post last year,, but maybe some folks joined afterwards. I'm going to repost it here as a courtesy to those who missed it. If you are an experienced treasure diver and feel I missed something, please leave a comment and I may steal.. I mean add it into the post. (thanx)
SO, YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS??
"This is kind of long, but I strive to be comprehensive.
Let us talk now about treasure hunting on the 1715 Fleet, treasure boats and treasure boat crew for a few minutes here...
What sort of commitment does it take to run a 1715 salvage effort?
Total. If I see anyone involved in 'The Biz" anywhere at any time, they are working the Fleet, talking about working the Fleet, thinking about working the fleet or getting something ready to work on the Fleet. For the most part we don't fish, we don't lobster, we don't take dive vacations, we don't enjoy pina coladas, long walks on the beach or getting caught in the rain, either. Obsessed? Perhaps.
>What does a treasure boat cost? One that needs a lot of work will cost you in the range of $5000-25000 and a LOT of money as well as months to years of your life. If you want something 'ready to go" which means only a month of work - 2 nice twin blower vessels sold in the last few years for $115K and $200K.
>What does it take to run a treasure boat for a season? It takes an average of 3-6 months of boat work to get 60-75 days of digging.
-Storage or dockage...figure $300-800 per month year round.
-Insurance? $600 to $2000 annually. (Insurance is a very good idea.)
-Maintenance? $1000 - $5000 per year.
-Repairs from year to year? Somewhere between $500 and $15,000 to $OH MY GOD
-Fuel costs? Presently between $100 and $2000 per week.
-Feeding the crew lunch, buying ice and drinks? $100-$250 per week.
-Equipment? Scuba compressor - $3000 - $7500.
-Hookah compressor- $1500 - $3000.
-Metal detectors - $200 (Nokta Subdive) to $3000 (Aqua Pulse with accessories) each. Every boat has several.
-Crew percentage - full time captains and crew get a percentage of
what they find. Some get a small salary or gas money, etc. $100 to $ 500/wk.
>>How many excavations can we complete in a year? 400 to 1400, depending on many things, mostly how well the boat performs and how well the crew works together.
Now... we all get a lot of people that want to dive the Fleet. Lovely people for the most part who are often disappointed when they are not hired on or invited to come dive on a treasure boat. Believe me, I'd love to give everyone the chance to be a treasure diver, but I have to be responsible to my boat crews as well as the people who financially make this all possible. We dig 400 to 1400 holes per year. Divide all the time, effort, money and blood, sweat and tears by the number of holes we did and that is the COST PER EXCAVATION. This cost is generally somewhere between $50 and $250 per hole, widely variable of course, but time is money!
These things (and more) factor into boat efficiency:
How long does it take to get to the fuel dock and top off fuel and water?
How long to get to the site?
How long to set up on your GPS numbers for the day?
How long to blow a hole?
How long to get a diver IN the hole and detect it thoroughly?
Does the diver spend their time chasing beer cans and ghost hits?
How well does the diver communicate with the captain about conditions, strata and other issues on the bottom?
How long does it take the boat to move to the next number and dig the next hole, thus starting the procedure all over again?
Training new divers is time consuming and lowers the efficiency of the boat and crew. This is our job...not our vacation.
So how to become a treasure diver on the 1715 Fleet?
LEARN all you can about boats, diving, The Fleet, the history of treasure diving, first aid, small engine and diesel engine repair and cooking. All of these things can make you a more valuable member of the crew.
BE AVAILABLE. If we spend 3 days training you and never see you again, that is a waste of our time. Expect to spend some days being a deck hand while learning (and pulling) the ropes.
BE ABLE TO TIE A KNOT and CLEAT A LINE PROPERLY.
LEARN TO RUN A METAL DETECTOR WELL. This is not nearly as easy as it sounds, but it is the most important part of the job. Most captains agree that it is easier to make a detector expert into a treasure diver than a dive expert that doesn't know the detector part.
SHOW THE HELL UP ON TIME!!! Don't cancel 6 hrs to 15 minutes before the boat is scheduled to leave the dock, leaving the boat shorthanded and less efficient and everyone that was counting on your disappointed.
DO NOT COMPLAIN. Anything that makes you less of a delight to be around gets you less invitations.
Be willing to do whatever it takes to help the boat and crew do the job, whether it is painting the bottom or the bilge, fixing a Honda motor, helping to get ice and groceries, hauling tanks or any other entry-level taks that takes some load off the captain and crew. Learn to dive first -WAY before you ask about when you can get under the boat and work a hole.
Understand and be able to deal with task loading underwater.
Pro tip - GET AND USE AN AQUAPULSE OR PULSE 8X UNDERWATER.
Find some way to be available during April through September 1st if you want to be a full time guy/girl and get a percentage.
Be willing to throw in some money- people that are backing the operation ALWAYS go to the front of the Guest Diver line.
There is always more, but I am tired and have boat work to do tomorrow.
Still interested? Well... I know a guy..."

 

[enrada]

One of the problems I run into is that participants/divers are always willing to learn but I am not a teacher. Or you must have the ability to learn through the power of observation. Therefore you need to be somewhat self educated, well read or have working knowledge of the subject matter. I once took a guy to South America and then I fund out he didn't want to get his new white running shoes sandy!
Have you any of the following skill sets;
Magnetometer operator
Side scan operator or taken a course
GPS search grid navigation
Computer skills other than Facebook
Mechanical skills
Public relation skills when working in foreign territory
One of the things I ask a person is what have you self taught yourself in the last year?
And that is for starters!!

 

[sphillips]

What’s the story of the two floatplanes(Maules?)?

 

[ropesfish]

What’s the story of the two floatplanes(Maules?)?

They were Maules. The original owner/builder of Sampson, Marcus Mitchell, used to own Sampson Cay in the Bahamas. Sampson was used as a work boat for their business, Overseas Salvage, as well as hauling freight all over the Bahamas. The family had 2 or three other vessels about the same size hauling freight at that time. The floatplanes were used to get people and parts quickly from one place to the other, back in the day. Sampson was built specifically to be able to carry an aircraft on top of the house. The 'ceiling joists' are 2 x 6 inch rectrancular tubing, 3/16ths wall.
I jokingly refer to Sampson as "The first and only Bahamian aircraft carrier".

 

[sphillips]

They were Maules. The original owner/builder of Sampson, Marcus Mitchell, used to own Sampson Cay in the Bahamas. Sampson was used as a work boat for their business, Overseas Salvage, as well as hauling freight all over the Bahamas. The family had 2 or three other vessels about the same size hauling freight at that time. The floatplanes were used to get people and parts quickly from one place to the other, back in the day. Sampson was built specifically to be able to carry an aircraft on top of the house. The 'ceiling joists' are 2 x 6 inch rectrancular tubing, 3/16ths wall.
I jokingly refer to Sampson as "The first and only Bahamian aircraft carrier".

Thx Bill, great story.

 

[ropesfish]

I was going to repost this, but it's easier and more efficient to just bump the thread.
If anyone is looking to get into the business and needs a boat (or boats) or equipment, let me know.
If I don't have it, I probably know someone that does.
and just so we are all clear, I operate on a 10% referral/commission structure. No such thing as a free lunch these days

Some have asked if I am planning to sell part of Search and Salvage LLC. The answer is yes, but I am not going out of the business. I just need to free up some capital and want to get some new blood in the company so I can attend to other business when needed.

 

[Abyssal Roboteer]

Bill, thank you for the detailed breakdown of the treasure boat costs. It's very informative for us.

I noticed scuba gear is included, but there’s no mention of ROVs or other equipment like dredgers. Am I right in thinking this is because they’re too expensive? You mentioned 400 to 1,400 holes per year at $50 to $250 each, which totals roughly $100,000 to $250,000 annually, and only a portion of this goes towards equipment.

So, operations are limited to depths of 30–50 metres, correct?

 

[ropesfish]

Bill, thank you for the detailed breakdown of the treasure boat costs. It's very informative for us.

I noticed scuba gear is included, but there’s no mention of ROVs or other equipment like dredgers. Am I right in thinking this is because they’re too expensive? You mentioned 400 to 1,400 holes per year at $50 to $250 each, which totals roughly $100,000 to $250,000 annually, and only a portion of this goes towards equipment.

So, operations are limited to depths of 30–50 metres, correct?

Hi there - This particular post (and my particular operation) is concerned with the 1715 Fleet wrecks on the Treasure Coast and more specifically, the wrecksites that are held by 1715 Fleet-Queens Jewels LLC with whom Search and Salvage (that's me) has a subcontract. Within the lease boundaries which extend no more than 9500 feet offshore, we are seldom if ever, in more than 40 feet of water.
I have built and owned ROVs and in our particular set of circumstances, never found more than a recreational use for them due to our shallow depths, warm water temps and crummy visibility. I am fully aware of the possibility of deeper wrecks off our shores, but I do not personally have the resources to pursue wrecks at more than 150ish fsw, nor have I found enough evidence of highly valuable cargo to make me want to put together an expedition with other people's money at risk.
I have a couple of 4 inch dredges but have had little luck using them in near-shore ocean conditions.
The cost of equipment purchase or rental and the associated costs of maintenance and operation is all relative to what you are targeting. While I love to play with technology, if you don't need it to complete your task, technology eats time and money for little or no return.

>>Please note that "400 to 1,400 holes per year at $50 to $250 each" has a couple of variables in it that have a wide range. If one mounts a low budget expedition of short duration and EVERYTHING goes as planned, $50/hole is doable, heck...with enough good days in a row and no breakdowns or new equipment needed, it might get down to $30 or $35. Imagine - one month of great weather, 20 holes a day, say 500 to 600 excavations for nothing but fuel, ice, lunch, dockage and whatever you pay yourself and/or your crew- you might get it to 25 USD/hole if you don't include any of your other expenses like wear and tear on the boat, depreciation on the vessel(s) and equipment, the other 11 months worth of dockage/storage, maintenance, equipment purchase or refurbishment and repairs.

If anyone is interested, we can talk about the costs to be expected on offshore expeditions and if you have one in the planning stages I can help with logistics, just not for free.
NOW...with all that said...I do have a 100 foot mothership and a 38 foot dig boat that could be contracted for permitted treasure salvage from October to May. I must stipulate that I am not interested in anything stateside or international without full government permission and the cooperation of the local law enforcement. While Showdown can make 20 kts, Sampson is an 8 knot boat. We can't outrun anyone and I want to come home with the same number of boats and crew that I leave with.

 

[Abyssal Roboteer]

Bill,

Many thanks for the detailed response and sharing your experience, which we obviously don't have.

I agree with you - there's little value from ROV and other tech in good conditions in shallow water. They really show themselves where it's expensive (or impossible, or dangerous) to use divers, in particular, in outer shelf edge or deep water tasks. Regarding the 1715 Fleet wreck mentioned in the topic - it's now clear that it's in shallow depth. I didn't know that from the beginning.

For the hole price point - everything's clear and understood, and it confirms what you've said about the tech.

We build cost-effective robotic and tech solutions, including for shipwreck salvage. Let's say up to 1000 feet where the tech can be relatively inexpensive. Sedimentation rates decrease significantly with distance from coast and water depth, so some items can be recovered relatively easily. Buried items are less easily recovered but still in a cost-effective manner.

Is the high cost of pursuing wrecks at more than 150ish fsw related to the recovery process itself or other surface-related costs? What would be an acceptable cost for robotic recovery? Are there other barriers we don't know about, assuming recovery and law compliance are fully sorted? We're on the same page regarding full law compliance.

Many thanks.

Best regards,
Kirill

 

[ropesfish]

Hi Kirill!
I'd love to see some of your products. Just because we havent got a project for it here in Shallow Water, Florida, doesn't mean there won't be one in the future.
Alrighty - to the meat of the matter!
It's all about the cost. EVERY salvage project has to be paid for by someone, whether it is a couple of guys pooling their resources and money for fuel,snacks and air fills, or Odyssey Marine spooling up a 200 ft ship with a crew of 30 with deepwater ROVs and a TV crew.
Expenses can run anywhere from 20 bucks a day to 200,000. While it wasn't a salvage operation, perhaps the most amazing ship-based underwater adventure in recent memory was Victor Vescovo's Five Deeps project that logged 47,000 miles, dove to the 5 deepest places on Earth and cost about 150 Million USD (all paid for out of Mr Vescovo's pocket).
First, we should talk about what wrecks are in deep water. As far as I know, the great majority of treasure wrecks in the Atlantic Basin are in fairly shallow water, since the cause of the casualty is usually "crashed into the shore because of a hurricane". There are exceptions of course...the 1857 SS Central America ini 7000 fsw and the 1708 San Jose, south of Cartagena in 2000 fsw, but most are in diver-accessible depths.
Deep wrecks are expensive to work and most of it is equipment and personnel expense. You are well aware of the difficulties of sealing pressure vessels , electrical connections and spinning shafts against high pressure seawater and what that does to the cost of manufacturing. Add that to the cost of a ship big enough to handle the loads of launching and recovering deepwater gear and being able to accomodate enough crew to make it all work and the costs add up fast. An experienced, competent captain is paid 550-750 a day, an engineer/mate gets about 350-400 and a deckhand $250/ day...gottta have 3 crew to stand watch 24hrs. My own "big boat" at 90 something feet accomodates 6-8 and will charter at $3500-$5500/day plus crew and fuel. if you want to buy your own vessel...better bag up $300,000 plus and then the expensive part starts!! Of course...you still have your own crew and gear to pay and pay for as well.
OK...so lets say we have to find the target, identify the target, evaluate the target and then salvage the contents. The target is a ballast pile with some wreckage still showing, depth is 800 feet, 40 miles from a coast, 100 miles from a port. Cannons and anchors are visible. Overburden is a foot or so of fairly light material. We are in open ocean and there are no governmental entanglements to cause problems... Open water survey takes a big boat towing expensive gear...think $10k per day x the number of days from mobilization to finding the site.... say it only takes 2 weeks...$140K if there are no bad weather days. 3-5 good weather days to make sure of the identity of the wreck and its contents and to formulate a plan to recover it, ($40 to 50K) followed by 10 to 'who knows how many days' to do recovery and transport everything and everyone back to civilization. We may have to run 100 miles a time or two to hide from the weather and re-provision. If we hit a bad streak, we might sit and idle for a month. Expenses go on, so we now are thinking that we better have $5 or 600,000 in hand to do this project and, of course, it may take a year or two to monetize the recovery so we'll also have some interest to pay.
There are just play numbers, but are probably within 10-15%, so...bottom line is that it is expensive to work offshore and it is a high risk/high reward game that takes dedicated offshore types to stay out to sea for weeks.
Maybe this will clarify it just enough to cause more discussion?

Speaking of maintenance -
Syd and KT Jones have told me (when cautioning me against owning an aluminum seaplane and landing it in saltwater) that to do so just adds the normally high cost of maintaining an airplane and adds in the cost of owning an aluminum boat with it's propensity to oxidize when immersed in a hot solution of salts and H2o.

 

[Mackaydon]

If you are going to work offshore for a number of days; and after you have put a sharp pencil to your budget, add another 25-50% 'contingency' figure to your budget. I'm unaware of any treasure hunt that came in under budget.
Don in SoCal

 

[ropesfish]

I had to come back and check to see if I needed to update this...other than the fact that costs continue to go up... nope.

 

[Red_desert]

I had to come back and check to see if I needed to update this...other than the fact that costs continue to go up... nope.

Costs go up

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Ropefish - Reading treasure magazines in my childhood really planted a seed that I’d love to salvage sunken treasure (I have immense patience and a good work ethic), but then as I get older I realize that I get motion sickness..I do not care for sharks, my back isn’t suited to dredging, ect. , ect. Your post brings home a reality that none of the gold porn mags paint.

Things, I’d imagine would be extremely useful for a modern ship hunter…someone with surveying skills, knowledge of coordinate systems, mapping experience, extensive experience with GIS. Someone with the ability to read cursive Spanish.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

That is unless part of the business is tourist treasure hunting, IDK. I’m sure it is.

 

[Red_desert]

By the way, isn't July 31st anniversary of 1715 fleet wrecking... a 7 day journey the start of ships breaking up close to 3rd hour of 7th day? If true those are mystical number sets.


The total eclipse of April 15, 2014, will be followed by another on Oct. 8, 2014, and another on April 4, 2015, and another on Sept. 28 2015



Usually, lunar eclipses come in no particular order. A partial can be followed by a total, followed by a penumbral, and so on. Anything goes. Occasionally, though, the sequence is more orderly. When four consecutive lunar eclipses are all total, the series is called a tetrad.

"During the 21st century, there are 8 sets of tetrads, so I would describe tetrads as a frequent occurrence in the current pattern of lunar eclipses," says Espenak. "But this has not always been the case. During the three hundred year interval from 1600 to 1900, for instance, there were no tetrads at all."