Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO!

[point hunter]

One aspect of proof I have found interesting are reports of ancient tunnel systems. I've seen reference to the Panamint mountains, the Superstition mountains, and the Ozarks. Some of these tunnels are said to extend to South America. Another reference is up the Colorado river with a city carved deep in the rock. This site is said to be "off limits" due to archaeological studies. Reports of ancient societies here are overwhelming, but as previously stated physical evidence is poorly lacking.

 

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[TreasureTales]

pather, I didn't find that same mummy with the crock. While I was searching for it, though, I did see a webpage about a Caucasoid mummy found in China. Its discovery raised a big controversy in that country. Guess nobody wants to admit the Caucasians got around.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

Content deleted due to new copyright rules at Treasurenet, apologies if this offends anyone.

Oroblanco

 

[fossis]

One aspect of proof I have found interesting are reports of ancient tunnel systems. I've seen reference to the Panamint mountains, the Superstition mountains, and the Ozarks. Some of these tunnels are said to extend to South America. Another reference is up the Colorado river with a city carved deep in the rock. This site is said to be "off limits" due to archaeological studies. Reports of ancient societies here are overwhelming, but as previously stated physical evidence is poorly lacking.

I was really on a roll with Little people, & giant skeletons,
but in regard to the colorado River site, here is this>>>>>>>>>>>>
A front page story by the Phoenix Gazette on April 5th 1909, had a story of an amazing find along the colorado River, the explorers were led by Professor S.A. Jordan, of the (Smithsonian), regarding Egyptian Relics.
But enquiries to them ,( at a much later time ) resulted in denying any finds of Egyptian Relics in North or South America, but names of areas on the north side of the canyon has Egyptian names. Around Ninety -four mile creek & Trinity creek has rock formations, with names like,Isis Temple, Osiris Temple, Horus Temple, Tower of Ra, & Tower of set.

This entire area with the Egyptian names is off limits, to hikers & other visitors because of "dangerous caves",& to most park personel.

From the front page of THE PHOENIX GAZETTE of April 5th, 1909 EXPLORATIONS IN GRAND CANYON mysteries of Immense Rich Cavern being brought to light Jordan is enthused Remarkable finds indicate ancient people migrated from Orient the latest news of the progress of the explorations of what is now regarded by scientists as not only the oldest archaeological discovery in the United States, but one of the most valauble in the world, which was mentioned some time ago in the Gazette, was brought to the city yesterday by G. E. Kinkaid, the explorer who found the great underground citadel of the Grand Canyon during a trip from Green river, Wyoming, down the Colorado, in a wooden boat, to Yuma, several months ago.

According to the story related to the Gazette by Mr. Kinkaid, the archaeologists of the Smithsonian Institute, which is financing the expeditions, have made discoveries which almost conclusively prove that the race which inhabited this mysterious cavern, hewn in solid rock by human hands, was of Oriental origin, possibly from Egypt, tracing back to Ramses. If their theories are borne out by the translation of the tablets engraved with hieroglyphics, the mystery of the prehistoric peoples of North America, their ancient arts, who they were and whence they came, will be solved. Egypt and the Nile, and Arizona and the Colorado will be linked by a historical chain running back to ages which staggers the wildest fancy of the fictionist.

A thorough examination under the direction of Prof. S. A. Jordan, the Smithsonian Institute is now prosecuting the most thorough explorations, which will be continued until the last link in the chain is forged.
Nearly a mile long tunnel underground, about 1480 feet below the surface, the long main passage has been delved into, to find another mammoth chamber from which radiates scores of passageways, like the spokes of a wheel.
Several hundred rooms have been discovered, reached by passageways running from the main passage, one of them having been explored for 854 feet and another 634 feet. The recent finds include articles which have never been known as native to this country, and doubtless they had their origin in the Orient. War weapons, copper instruments, sharp-edged and hard as steel, indicate the high state of civilization reached by these strange people. So intrested have the scientists become that preperations are being made to equip the camp for extensive studies, and the force will be increased to thirty or forty persons.


( Mr. Kinkaids Report)
Mr Kinkaid was the first white child born in Idaho and has been an explorer and treasure hunter all his life, thirty years having been in the service of the Smithsonian Institute. Even breifly recounted, his history sounds fabulous, almost grotesque." First I would impress that the cavern is nearly inaccessible. The entrance is 1,486 feet down the sheer canyon wall. It is located on Government land and no visitor will be allowed there under penalty of trespass. the scientists wish to work unmolested, without fear of archaeological discoveries being disturbed by curio or relic hunters. A trip there would be fruitless, and the visitor would be sent his on his way
The story of how I found the cavern has been related, but in a paragraph: I was journeying down the Colorado River in a boat, alone, looking for mineral. Some forty two miles up the river from the El Tovar Crystal canyon, I saw on the east wall, stains in the sedimentary formation about 2,000 feet above the river, was the mouth of the cave.
There are steps leading from this entrance some thirty yards to what was, at the time the cavern was inhabited, the level of the river.
When I saw the chisel marks on the wall inside the entrance, I became intrested, securing my gun and went in. During that trip I went back several hundred feet along the main passage till I came to the crypt in which I discovered the mummies.
One of these I stood up and photographed by flashlight, I gathered a number of relics, which I carried down the Colorado to Yuma, from whence I shipped them to Washington with details of the discovery, following this the explorations were undertaken.

The passages. "The main passageway is about 12 feet wide, narrowing to nine feet toward the farther end. About 57 feet from the entrance, the first side-passages branch off to the right and left, along which, on both sides, are a number of rooms about the size of ordinary living rooms of today, though some are 30 by 40 feet square. These are entered by oval-shaped doors and are ventilated by round air spaces through the walls into the passages. The walls are about three feet six inches in thickness.
The passages are chisled or hewn as straight as could be laid out by an engineer. The ceilings of many of the romms converge to a center. The side passages near the entrance run at a sharp angle from the main hall, but towards the rear they gradually reach a right angle in direction.

The Shrine. "Over a hundred feet from the entrance is the cross-hall, several hundred feet long, in which are found the idol, or image, of the people's God, sitting cross legged, with a lotus flower or lily in each hand.
The cast of the face is Oriental, and the carving this cavern. The idol almost resembles Buddha, though the scientists are not certain as to what religious worship it represents. Taking into consideration everything found thus far, it is possible that this worship most resembles the ancient people of Tibet.
Surrounding this idol are smaller images, some very beautiful in form; others crooked-necked and distorted shapes, symbolical, probably, of good and evil. There are two large cactus with protruding arms, one on each side of the dias on which the god squats. All this is carved out of hard rock resembling marble.
In the opposite corner of this cross-hall were found tools of all discriptions, made of copper, these people undoubtedly knew the lost art of hardning this metal, which has been sought by chemicals for centuries without result.
On a bench running around the workroom was some charcoal and other material probably used in the process. There is also slag and material similar to matte, showing that these ancients smelted ores, but so far no trace of where or how this was done has been discovered, nor the origin of the ore.
Among the other finds are vases or urns and cups of copper and gold, made very artistic in design. The pottery work includes enameled ware and glazed vessels.
Another passageway leads to granaries such as are found in the oriental temples. They contain seeds of various kinds. One very large storehouse has not yet been entered, as it is twelve feet high and can be reached only from above. Two copper hooks extend on the edge, which indicates that some sort of ladder was attached.
these graniries are rounded, as the materials of which they are constructed, I think ,is a very hard cement. A grey metal is also found in this cavern, which puzzles the scientists, for it's identity has not been established. It resembles platinum.
Strewn promiscuously over the floor everywhere are what people call "cats eyes", a yellow stone of no great value. Each one is engraved with the head of the Malay type.

The Crypt-- The tomb or crypt in which the mummies were found is one of the largest of the chambers, the walls slanting back at an angle of about 35 degrees. On these are tiers of mummies, each one occupying a seperate hewn shelf. At the head of each is a small bench, on which is found copper cups and pieces of broken swords. Some of the mummies are covered with clay, and all are wrapped in a bark fabric. The urns or cups on the lower tier are crude, while as the higher shelves are reached, the urns are finer in design, showing a later stage of civilization. It is worthy of note that all the mummies examined so far have proved to be male, no children or females being buried here. This leads to the belief that this exterior section was the warriors barracks.
"Among the discoveries no bones of animals have been found, no skins, no clothing, no bedding. Many of the rooms are bare except for water vessels.
One room, about 40 by 700 feet, was probably the main dining hall, for cooking utensils are found here. what these people lived on is a problem, though it is assumed they came South in the winter and farmed in the valleys, going back north in the summer.
Upwards of 50,000 people could have lived in the caverns comfortably.
One theory is that the present indian tribes found in Arizona are the serfs or slaves of the people which inhabited the cave.
Undoubtedly a good many thousands of years before the Christian era, a people lived here which reached a high stage of civilization.
The chronology of human history is full of gaps.

Professor Jordan is much enthused over the discoveries and believes that the find will prove of incalculable value in archaeological work.
One thing I have not spoken of, may be of some intrest. There is one chamber of the passageway to which is not ventilated, and when we approached it a deadly, snaky smell struck us. Our light would not penetrate the gloom, and until stronger ones are available we will not know what the chamber contains. Some say snakes, but others boo-hoo this idea and think it may contain a deadly gas or chemicals used by the ancients. No sounds are heard, but it smells snaky just the same.
The whole underground installation gives one of shaky nerves the creeps. The gloom is like a weight on one's shoulders, and our flashlights and candles only make the darkness blacker. Imagination can revel in conjectures and ungodly daydreams back through the ages that have elapsed till the mind reels dizzily in space.

(An Indian Legend) in connection with this story, it is notable that among the Hopi Indians, the tradition is told that their ancestors once lived in an underworld in the Grand Canyon !!!

There are two theories of the origin of the Egyptians, one is that they came from Asia; another that the racial cradle was in the upper Nile region. Heeren, an Egyptologist, believed in the indian origin of the Egyptians. The discoveries in the Grand Canyon may throw further light on human evolution and prehistoric ages.


These materials were copied for me by the late Gloria Farley,
sadly, I don't know from which publication, and (I found my book), I have read them another time from a publication out west.

Now my question? where did these Artifacts go? and why is everything hushed up? Does a Newspaper print things like this for a big joke? and why is this area off limits? Lots to ponder!!
Fossis................

 

[Nick in NEPA]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

pather, I didn't find that same mummy with the crock. While I was searching for it, though, I did see a webpage about a Caucasoid mummy found in China. Its discovery raised a big controversy in that country. Guess nobody wants to admit the Caucasians got around.

http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/mummy.htmTan pot in the upper left corner.

 

[fossis]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

pather, I didn't find that same mummy with the crock. While I was searching for it, though, I did see a webpage about a Caucasoid mummy found in China. Its discovery raised a big controversy in that country. Guess nobody wants to admit the Caucasians got around.

http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/mummy.htmTan pot in the upper left corner.

Hard to tell from the small pic, but intresting!!

Fossis.................

 

[TreasureTales]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

pather, I didn't find that same mummy with the crock. While I was searching for it, though, I did see a webpage about a Caucasoid mummy found in China. Its discovery raised a big controversy in that country. Guess nobody wants to admit the Caucasians got around.

http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/mummy.htmTan pot in the upper left corner.

Thank you. Yes, interesting designs on that pot- southwestern. Maybe the Americas were the cradle of civilization and the scientists got everything backwards. LOL, I really would not be at all surprised if that is actually the truth.

 

[Nick in NEPA]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

pather, I didn't find that same mummy with the crock. While I was searching for it, though, I did see a webpage about a Caucasoid mummy found in China. Its discovery raised a big controversy in that country. Guess nobody wants to admit the Caucasians got around.

http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/mummy.htmTan pot in the upper left corner.

Thank you. Yes, interesting designs on that pot- southwestern. Maybe the Americas were the cradle of civilization and the scientists got everything backwards. LOL, I really would not be at all surprised if that is actually the truth.

OR....a trans-ATLANTIc continent or landbridge encouraging trade of ideas and objects that was covered by a FLOOD...ATLANTIS.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

Content deleted due to new copyright rules on Treasurenet. Apologies if this offends anyone.

Oroblanco

 

[TreasureTales]

If Atlantis existed as Pluto described, it would have made trans-Atlantic travel much easier; and the exchange of science, culture, populations, and trade between the Americas and the rest of the world much easier as well. It would have been similar to a naval version of a stop-over for a cross country flight. The crossroads of the world, which could explain why it was so far advanced - learning about the best technologies from its visitors and then improving upon them.

Hey Pather, how about starting now to plan for an education that will enable you to look for Atlantis in 10-15 years? Degree in oceanic archaeology, minor in ancient languages, license for scuba work. Maybe we should make that 20-25 years. LOL


Mr.O, your link doesn't work for me. Bummer.

 

[tinpan]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

Hello again,

Tinpan wrote:

Can i please see ,the ancient texts found by J. Smith and way he translated them.

These gold plates are kept in Utah under lock and key.  The language is supposed to be "modified Egyptian".  I have no desire to irritate the followers of the Latter Day Saints church, but have my own suspicions as to what these gold plates truly are.  Here is the problem:

There is no trace of any Egyptians, Hebrews or other cultures that recorded things on plates of gold, except two - Carthage and the Etruscans, which whom Carthage made several treaties prior to aligning with Rome.  There are several of these treaties in existence, in museums, and the language is Punic.  It was not uncommon for Carthage to record an important treaty on gold plates, but as for Hebrews and others, we know of copper scrolls and silver scrolls, but not gold.

Remember the story of how and where Joseph Smith discovered the gold plates?  He was told by an angel to dig, at a spot along the Susquehanna river between the towns of Oakland and Great Bend, PA.  He proceeded to dig there and recovered gold plates, which were then shown to witnesses who signed affadavits as to having seen them, and the plates were then locked away with only the elders of the LDS church allowed to see them.  Hmm, now why should this be strangely coincidental?

The Carthaginian explorer and admiral Hanno, whose voyages are recorded by his own record (found in the temple of Hammon by the Romans) is known to have sailed south along the Atlantic coast of Africa.  Diodorus Siculus and Aristotle both report that the Carthaginians discovered America quite by accident, when some merchant ships which were sailing south along the coast of Africa were blown across the ocean by storms.  Stone inscriptions with the name Hanno on them have been found in Massachusetts and PA, and again here we also have Carthaginian coins found.  Along the Susquehanna river a number of gravestones were found, which were inscribed with what Dr Fell concluded were Basque names, but in my opinion are Punic writing and names.  An archaeological dig done at the junction of the Chenango and Susquehanna rivers, in NY state but no great distance from the site where Joseph Smith found those plates, a metal urn of Carthaginian manufacture was found.  I strongly suspect that the gold plates found by Smith were not anything Egyptian or Hebrew, but Punic, and possibly recording an alliance with local tribesmen or a claim to the lands discovered.  I hope some day to be able to have a peek at the famous gold plates, but a thin hope.

Tinpan also wrote:

  Then these ancient cultures traveled to the America's surely they would have taken their diseases with them.Which infact would have caused major epidemics. Like those which took place all over the world at time after 1492.The Igneous American cultures would have almost be totally destroyed.A event of this must have been recorded by some one in some sort of method.Can i see evidence of this.

There is evidence of ancient plagues or epidemics which struck the Amerindian populations in ancient times, but the diseases are not identified today.  For instance, only recently the previously-unknown and quite massive pre-columbian civilization which apparently spanned most of the massive Amazon basin, lands which were long considered to be ultra-pristine wilderness.  The only estimate of how large the population was (that is the only estimate I have found thus far) said around 200,000,000!  So what happened to this massive population?  They had long disappeared by the arrival of the Europeans, and some kind of disease epidemic is thought the likely cause.  For that matter, there are disease outbreaks among Old World peoples that could have originated in the Americas, such as the horrific plague that struck Athens during the Peloppenesian wars. 

Tinpan wrote:

Can please see ancient old texts relating to these historic travels. That mean complete texts recored by the travelers or their culture.That doesn,t mean part texts or those writen by other cultures after the fact.

Ah, go to the source whenever possible, which is the best method of research for any true treasure hunter - Tinpan you are a man after my own heart!  Okay here are some for you to look up - and NEVER take my word for it (or any other writer's) as to what the originals said or meant.  (Yes this can be a pain but you get to learn some Greek, Punic, Latin and Hebrew along the way so it is not a total waste of time)

Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, books II, III, V and a minor point in IX
Aristotle, On Marvelous Things Heard
Aelian, Varia Historia
Pliny the Elder, Natural History books I, II and V
Plutarch, On the Face of the Moon, Moralia XII (this one describes the northern route to America as used by Carthage, the exact same route, virtually, as that used by the Norse later)
Plutarch, Life of Sertorius
Plato, Timaeus (ignore the Atlantis stuff for the time being, and take note of the fact that the Greeks KNEW of the Americas)
Hanno, The Periplus of Hanno
Herodotus, The Histories
Ferdinand Columbus (also seen written Fernando Colon) The Discovery of America

Minor points can be found in these, but do confirm many things:
Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri, book VII, Indica 43.11-12
Captain John Smith, How the Ancient Authors Report the New World, and History of Virginia
Gonzalo Fernandez de Oviedo, The Natural History of the Indies
Hugo Grotius, On the Origin of the Native Races of America, a dissertation


There are some others that will be a bit more tough to find than these, but if you have the time and patience try:

Rufus Festus Avienus, Ora Maritima (has important details from the Periplus of Himilco)
Pytheas, On the Ocean (this exists only in fragments, but those fragments are extremely interesting)
Polybius, The History

If you need more than this, I can point to some more, but with such a loaded question as posed, I expect that if these sources do not suffice, that you will do some of your own legwork.

Tinpan wrote:

Can please the see the methods of navigation used by any of the above mentioned cultures and designs of ships that could sail across the Atlantic Ocean.

You will need to visit some very distant museums, but I can give you a quick run-down on those used by Phoenicians and Carthaginians, you can do a Google and find some data on them online:

The Cross Staff: a long, straight piece of wood or metal, with cross-members and sighting holes.  The staff has markings along it which allow the user to sight the elevation (height) of the Sun and stars above the horizon, and thus work out the user's latitude.  Only works on clear nights and clear days.

The Sun-compass (referred to in ancient texts as the "Gnomon" a term now used only for the upright on a sundial) a round compass dial with an upright pin, with marks around the edge and curved lines which dissect the dial; by simply holding the Sun-compass in sunlight and rotating the compass until the shadow cast by the upright touches the curved line, the cardinal directions are thus found.

One I will make you buy the book for, as this one took me a LOT of research to find, but you probably already have some idea of what it is - if not a hint is "the bones of Typhon".

Ancient mariners also used what we call "primitive" methods to navigate (read Homer and the tale of Jason and the Argonauts for examples) which are types of expertise gained through generations of observation of nature - very much the way even modern Polynesians are able to judge where distant islands are located by the 'echo waves' that are reflecting out thousands of miles away, or the flights of birds of certain types, cloud formations which normally only form over land masses etc.  Also, if you can find it, read the "Periplus Erythraeum" which is an ancient Greek description of the sailing routes and ports of call between Egypt and India and Africa, and how to use the prevailing tradewinds and 'monsoon' periods to make faster and safer trips direct across the Indian ocean, an open-sea distance between ports that is greater than the distance between Africa and South America, incidentally.

Tinpan wrote:

Resent DNA testing over 20 years from ancient remains of Jew and Palestine to present day people showed that they are infact related
So if this method is applied to ancient world and native American there would evidence they are related.Can i see that evidence also.

You may be able to get hold of the various DNA test results and have better luck than I have, these are incredibly politically charged tests and you may never get permission to publish them even if you ARE allowed to view them.  Don't ask why I say that.  I CAN say that one recent series of DNA tests showed that some Amerindians of a certain tribe have Greek DNA dating back thousands of years...

Tinpan wrote:

Even by 1850 standards the amount of support needed to sail across the Atlantic Ocean then travel inland hundreds of miles would be huge.Can i please see  settlements remains,camps,graves and any thing else found other than a hand full of coins and relics.

You are accepting the standard 'dogma' of historians, that any type of contact MUST leave massive amounts of evidence behind, which is not true.  For example, we have virtually NO evidence of the sites visited by Coronado and many other well-known explorers, and in fact we have more evidence of Punic, Celtic, African, Welsh and Chinese visitors to the Americas than of Cristopher Columbus!  (They are actively searching for the Santa Maria even today, perhaps one day they will find it?)  Small levels of contact, especially of the type described by Herodotus in which the two parties did not even actually meet in person, would NOT result in large amounts of evidence that any contact took place.  By 1850 standards, the sailing ships and expertise of Punic and Phoenician mariners was actually superior!  Then too, remember that in ancient times and up to relatively recent times, RIVERS acted as highways for explorers and traders, and this is where most of the evidence has turned up - along navigable rivers (and those which WERE navigable in ancient times) and coastal sites.  Your dismissal of a "handful of coins and relics" is un-warranted and un-realistic - show me any evidence of Coronado's presence in Arizona?  For the Isolation theory to hold, there MUST BE NO EVIDENCE - thus even ONE coin, amphora, or odd-DNA test proves the Isolation theory WRONG.

Tinpan wrote:

Gene odities like Australia Aboriginals with white hair and fair eyes has been well recored.But there had been no outside contact at any stage before 1660.DNA test proved it.Your evidence please

Well you have made it very easy - look at Dutch maps published in the early 1600s, prior to 1660, which clearly show the correct west and northern coasts of both Australia and New Zealand.  I will also point you to some Australian researchers who have found clear evidence of Egyptian, Chinese and Phoenician visitors to the beautiful Island Continent:
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/australia1.html
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~classblu/egypt/article.htm

A map from 1547 showing the coast of Australia: http://nla.gov.au/nla.map-rm2393

Also read Gavin Menzies 1421,the year China discovered America (even though I find a number of problems with his theory, some evidence is striking)
You are assuming that any contact MUST therefore result in the exchange of genes, technology, diseases, etc when this only occurs when contact between cultures is quite extensive; this stance is widely held by many historians, which ignores the fact that MINOR CONTACT LEAVES MINOR EVIDENCE if any!

Tinpan wrote:

50,000 years of culture in Australia and more that 400 different cultures and languages.many examples of rock ,head dresses have similarites to rome ,greek,both text and painting.Also like other ancient cultures too.
Yet there is no evidence of these ancient cultures ever coming here.

See above links, there truly IS evidence of several ancient visitors in a number of places in Australia.  Much more archaeological work needs to be done in that vast land.

Tinpan wrote:

Chinese Empire lasted 3500 years and Australia is not that far but they never came here but they sailed to the America's Why there and not here.Being a nation of sea found eaters they would have the largest fish and chip shop in the world.lol But they didn,t

See above, and Gavin Menzies would take exception to your statement; based on what I have seen, I have to agree - Australia was NOT in utter isolation prior to Captain Cook.  (I will give you another hint: the ancient Egyptian name for Australia was Tel Netjer!)

  tinpan wrote:

I don,t doubt the ancient world ships may have landed on the american main land but by accident  lost or wrecked.

It is very much a certainty that accidental crossings of the ocean occurred, and this is precisely the method by which the Carthaginians (and the Phoenicians for that matter) are stated to have "discovered" the Americas, BY ACCIDENT.  Some ships obviously were wrecked, as several have been found!  However as Punic ship-building skills were pretty good (best in the world for their day) there is no reason why they would be unable to repair a damaged vessel using the excellent timbers found in the Americas, or even to have built a complete vessel.  As for Roman wrecks and Greek, there seems to have been several that accidentally crossed, but failed to return. 

Tinpan (and anyone else interested) I would like to suggest that you look into the Egyptian mummies who were found to have ingested American products (tobacco and cocaine, one mummy even had an American tobacco leaf within its' wrappings) or the little spice known as Cloves, which have been found in Egyptian tombs dating well back into the Bronze Age; Cloves only were produced in the Moluccas islands, which are much closer to Australia than to Asia, yet ancient mariners were "somehow" transporting this important spice thousands of miles across the seas.  Then look into some other commodities, which are evidence that SOME KIND OF CONTACT was taking place across the oceans, such as cotton (and yes I am well aware that New World cotton is a different variety than Old World cotton, however Old World cotton has been found in ancient tombs in Mexico and being grown by natives in Mexico when first discovered by Europeans) peppers, bottle gourds, American corn (which shows up on ancient statues in India) peppers, bananas, date palms, pomegranates (the most well-known fruit world-wide, the names means "Punic apple") or for that matter chickens!  Yes chickens were  found being raised by Amerindian tribes, and this little 'tidbit' is VERY much ignored by historians.  The evidence is there, all you need to do is stop swallowing those "official" dogmas of the Americas and Australia being lands of "utter isolation" from the rest of the world, and see that global contact was taking place - small scale, yes; sporadic, yes, but contact nevertheless.  We are not going to find huge ruins of Roman amphitheaters in Ohio, but we do find hemp!   Remember too that only recently was ANY evidence ever found that the Norse had actually reached the Americas (L'anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland) and that only Carthage made any kind of serious attempt to plant a colony, and even this was later withdrawn.  Plutarch records that some native peoples in NE America had intermarried with "Greeks" (which could well mean Punic or Kyrenean people, who were closely allied with Carthage for several centuries and excellent navigators in their own right) so these people would have, over time, utterly blended in with the native peoples until their genetic 'clues' like blue eyes or a certain hair color etc would be quite a rarity.

Treasure Tales wrote :

Wouldn't it be something if this continent wound up having a civilization living here that rivaled the Romans or the Greeks or the Egyptians?

In my opinion, the Americas did have several civilizations which rivaled the Romans, Greeks or Egyptians - among them the Incas, Mayas, Aztecs, Moundbuilders, Tiahuanaco, Olmecs and others - many of these had writing systems, built massive stone structures we cannot duplicate today, and had extensive medical, astronomical, mathematical and calendrical knowledge.  I am not saying that Egyptians came and built the pyramids of Mexico and Central America, but that the IDEA of building pyramids got transmitted. 

Another problem is that we find small traces of so many different origins - like some sign of Celtic visitors as at Mystery Hill, NH, which turned out to have some Phoenician writing in the foundations; Egyptians, Greek coins, etc - well in those people I mentioned earlier, the Carthaginians, we have a people who had made a habit of hiring foreign people to work as sailors, soldiers etc - it would not be at all odd to find Iberians, Celts, Scythians, Germans, Greeks, Egyptians in fact almost any nationality among the armies of Carthage or Tyre, so it is quite possible that these traces of these others could have been from people who were actually "passengers" (employees) of Punic mariners.

We ought to send a PM to Real de Tayopa for first-hand knowledge of the strange red-haired giants of Mexico, as all I know of them has come from him.  As for the Caucasian mummies found in northern China, the Discovery channel had a special on them, titled "The Riddle of the Desert Mummies" which showed excellent footage of them - they were tall, red and blond haired, wore tartan plaid clothing and are older than the Pyramids of Egypt!  Remember too the so-called "Ice Man" found in the Alps a few years ago - a man who had a copper axe, centuries before people are "supposed" to have been working in copper! 

Sorry for the long-winded post, I hope you all have a great day!

Oroblanco ~ Roy A. Decker

Thanks for the interesting reading of the above links,

But first i did i deed ask a couple of the young door-knocking Mormons about the Ancient texts and methods of translation.It was their belief that in fact the Mormon church doesn,t have any of the item and that they returned to heaven after the translation.They then had to rely on their faith.That sure helped poor J Smith when the angry crowd came for him.  So pretty much got only their word that indeed the items ever existed.I used this example as the best known claim to ancient world cultures traveling to the America's. Wish i hadn't as it has not very creditable in my opinion.


The first link that you gave to read is a single find and the if you follow the the link to the main page this too is a modern day church"s religious info page.?? once again based on faith .

The second link which a text written by a Mr White which gives every reason why the rock art is infact fake. And Mr white has distanced him self from this text and claims some else wrote it.

The Links you can follow get even more interest, most wild claims and no evidence at all.Names of locations in wrong places Out by thousands of miles.
The people how wrote this have little unstanding of aboriginal culture let alone of that of Romes , Greeks or any of the others.25 % are well know legends and many have tried to prove of there existance but have NOT.
50 % make no sence at all.25% i can answer on the spot. No and Why. Please go back and read the links and other links provided by this site. you see will see what i mean.

There's a big issue with the map link.There is not one item being cultural or structures or animals or vegatation that has any to do with Australia and as the title Say's  BIG JAVA that's dead right the largest island in Indoneasia and the line Australia was called Big Java.Just another theory.

Also i would like to express this line of thought to you, yes Australia is vast and untouched place but would be indeed an advantage  in fact you were looking for evidence of other cultures.untouched sites which could be picked up  by satellite and easier to find.This process is infact used on many historic site in Australia today

The oldest known chinese structure of its type infact found in Australia is less than 1 mile from me and it dates 1850's.This has been comfirmed by experts from 3 countries.Against the finds and relics found was indeed a vase that dated from the 14 century but it was brought by chiness gold miners in 1850's.

Thanks for interesting post and i will add some links for you to read in relation to enviromental and climate factors that will truely show that no ancient race could  or would have wanted to stay here.welcome to the land of peoples of rainbow serpant.Sole owners for 50,000 years.Each single tribe had little time for the next and to cross breed is called BAD BLOOD and against their law. so infact they would have killed any persons of what ever race and era on the spot.
          tinpan

 

[SwampHunter]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

pather, I didn't find that same mummy with the crock. While I was searching for it, though, I did see a webpage about a Caucasoid mummy found in China. Its discovery raised a big controversy in that country. Guess nobody wants to admit the Caucasians got around.

http://www.lexicorient.com/e.o/mummy.htmTan pot in the upper left corner.

Thank you. Yes, interesting designs on that pot- southwestern. Maybe the Americas were the cradle of civilization and the scientists got everything backwards. LOL, I really would not be at all surprised if that is actually the truth.

Funny that this is brought up. I have always thought the there was a high probability that this might have been the case.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

Content deleted due to new copyright rules on Treasurenet. Apologies if this offends anyone.

Oroblanco

 

[TreasureTales]

Treasure Tales, may I ask which link failed to work for you? I just tried them and all worked for me - if needed I can copy and paste, with appropriate credits.

Works for me now, thank you. Don't know what the problem was, but must have been on my side.

Excuse me gentlemen, but I thought we were discussing the theory that Columbus didn't discover America. How did we wind up in Australia? Columbus off course again? LOL

 

[tinpan]

Treasure Tales, may I ask which link failed to work for you?  I just tried them and all worked for me - if needed I can copy and paste, with appropriate credits.

Tinpan, you seem to ignore the evidence and concentrate on whatever religious or racial propaganda that might be online, using the evidence as "support" for their own purposes; I did not intend my use of those sites to show the photos or some extract of true information that they have online as MY personal "validation" of their websites, their propaganda, their agendas. I do have other photos that I cannot post here or if I do, cannot then use them in my book (copyright issues, publishers generally will not accept any photos which are published anywhere else, including in an online forum, or at least those publishers I have been in contact with will not) so I have to rely on those which are already ON-line, even if these websites with such photos, maps etc are promoting ideas/theories and beliefs which I personally do NOT agree with or validate in any way. 

I only posted ONE map showing the coastline of Australia (are you claiming that map of Big Java was SO far off from correct?) there are several others!  I own one personally, a Dutch edition from the early 1600s that is correct except for the south coast, which is blank.  You point to the name Big Java as "proof" it is wrong, yet remember that Australia was NOT known as Australia prior to being so named, so Big Java as a NAME problem should not be any concern, unless it were AFTER the continent were named Australia, and this is not the case.  With the prevailing winds, oceanic currents etc do you really believe that ships, visiting the not-so-distant Moluccas, could never have drifted to the island continent quite by accident?  How do you suppose that the Aborigines ever got to Australia, if people were incapable of reaching that land prior to Captain Cook?  Check out the other maps at the Australia National Library, which are online and easy to access; you can start from the link I posted above.

Then you say there is no evidence of ancient visitors to Australia?  How would you explain the presence of a boomerang (in fact several) found among the treasures of an ancient Egyptian king (Tutankhamen for one example):

from: http://www.egyptianmuseum.gov.eg/details.asp?which2=29

You believe that the Egyptians "invented" these highly unusual weapons independently, and coincidentally with the Australians?  Just curious.

Of course you are welcome to your views and opinions, and you have plenty of company, including a majority of historians.  Good luck and good hunting to you, hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

Hi Oroblanco, Steady on for just minute, infact did check the links and the other references supplied, which did take some time.Then i made my remarks.I was polite enough to hear you out but your very quick to discredit my opinion based on your research.Anyway to this reply i,m going to say that the information you have used is totaly wrong in many of your statements.

In the above texts you presume i think a whole lot of things which infact i have no suggested,implied or said.This what i know.

BOOMERANG curved wooden missile of Australian aborigines which returns to the the thrower.Many ancient cultures used a curved throwing stick to kill birds and small animals and would be classed as a weapon.2 types of impletements implied as boomerang one is the throwing club and the other the returning one.True boomerang which returns to your hand is infact NOT A WEAPON at all.This device is to scare animals from their hidding place.Fact
The Egyptian throwing stick returns to the hand of the thrower.By its shape and the look of it i don,t think so.So how can you claim the items found in Tutankhamen tomb to be Boomerangs.If a young boy any where in the world pick up a small curved dead branch about a foot long and threw it into the wind would it return, i think not.Egyptian culture goes how far back get me guess 50,000 year just the australian aborigines.I think not.So what's coincidentall.So this what you call evidence.Also i noticed that someware that kangaroo bones were found a Egyptian sites as well i got you answer to that as well.During both WW 1 and WW 2 10's of thousands of Australian troops where stationed in Egypt and it is well recorded that the Australians did alot of strange things as jokes to amuse themselves.these accounts can found in hundreds of letters and texts and the records of officers.Even Lord Kitchener and winston churchill made remarks.

i,m well aware of ships that belonged to the Dutch-East India Company travelled up the western coast of Australia.When i in my first text used the year 1660 was rounded and as to which dutch ship came here first know one can really say.If you research logs of some of those ship it clearly states that better half of the top of the west coast was not a place the Dutch wanted.The dutch refered to australia as New Holland.your map sounds interesting so you believe the sailed around most of west, north and east coast. impossible Did someone foreget to mention that a that tail sailing ships couldnot navigate the Great barrier reef.which by the way is 2000 miles long.Ct James Cook nearly got ship wrecked on it .The correct survey of the australian coat line was done by Mattew Flinders in a rather small ship so how did these Greek and roman boats with rowing crew of 200 get around .Sure like to know.It takes a ship with a huge square yards of sail and a deep sea hull to navagate the water of the Indian and Great Southern ocean.Did the ancient old culture have ships with sailSand masks of the latter tall sail ship i think not.Let me guess they rowed.Most ancient cultures feared the Mediterarean which by any stardard is mild compared to the mighty Indian Ocean.If in fact the crews where as large as they where, the fact of the matter is they would have died from thirst and hunger long before the got half way.Don,t think they had Macca's on any of the Islands in the Indian Ocean.I can asure that West and east did trade at the time of Egyptians and greek and how ever else.The route used was known as the Silk Road which spans many thousands of miles across land and was used for 3500 years.

i also noticed that more than 80% of the ancient world relics found was in the the area known as the hinter land which stretches from just North of sydney to Southern Queensland.Not only is this the first place of white settlement but today this area is the home to the those of different beliefs.hippies,pagans religious minorites.funny that and it also known for drugs too.
When i made my first remarks to this post i did infact think about what i was saying.so far you have not given any clear evidence at all .Just pile of infomation from history used in  your way of thinking and the ancient relics found could have come any time after white settlement.There's No Evidence at all.Alot of the recorded history of these travels are made different cultures and written after the fact.The Greek historians refer to the land in north being America and this is taken from a text that refers to the lost city of Atlantis and when other say it could be on the floor of the mediterranean ocean.Sorry is there 2 lost  cities of Atlantis or is the third on Thursday Island.

Also your map link has ingenious people riding HORSES IN 1500's  and living in gable roofed houses.WHO ever drew this map clearly never came any where near the australian main land .

geogolically speaking of Australia is considered bad ground more that 70% of my finds which date to 150 years are almost destroyed by ground conditions and i have lived in a few parts of australia and hunted for over 20 years how the hell do relics from 2000 years ago survive.

I have not yet googled anything, all out of my head.if you think you CAN prove me wrong in most of what i have said Please do.

  I,m not a sheep , I,m a kangaroo    tinpan

 

[tinpan]

PART 2

During the second world war australia and other commomwealth forces battled the germans up and down the coast of North africa.Over great distances.these events crossed the lands once owned by the ancient empires, Carthaginains,Punic, Egyptians and other countless ones.it was not on common for the troops to buy or aquire relics from these ancient cultures from local traders or grave robbers.that also applies to Greece and Crete.I believe that is where most of the ancient relics found in Australia came from.Australians are famous for their ingenuity and they could have quite easily found a way of getting the few larger stone statues back to Australia.All of this is fact and well recorded by australians and at the time it took place.This a solid foundation, seems you have not got one nor can you change this.10's of thousands of aussie troops all over your ancient empires.Theres 200,000 texts records and books to these events so you won,t be able to drown this claim with your reseach.The way i see it you really no nothing about any of Australian history or of aboriginial culture.Good luck with your project and hope you find some evidence to make change my mind.then i will glady buy a 100 copies of your book to be.

                                        tinpan

 

[Skrimpy]

...
Truly sad. The whole "Columbus" thing is a joke, IMO.

Oh yes. It is. I know if it weren't for European Imperialism we wouldn't be here today but what the Europeans did to the Native Americans is abhorent and we should stop at almost nothing to save what little of the cultures are left.

 

[Skrimpy]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

Greetings,
This will be a VERY long post, if you don't care to read long posts just skip to the next post.

...I could go on here but must admit I have been working on a book on this subject for over eight years now and it would fill many pages to list all the evidence in a forum...

Oroblanco

In lieu of what I have posted I will write that I agree with Oroblanco. I will remove my post. Mine wasn't as long and involved but I feel pretty much the same, except for anything he wrote of Joseph Smith, good or bad. As I have said I will keep my religious views to myself. I must admit I had to read Oros post several times. Very nice and I want a copy of that book when it's finished. Post the title when it's published so I can go get a copy. I'm very interested.

 

[Skrimpy]

Also, with all of this talk of cover-ups by the Chinese, and the Smithsonian one would have to ask, "Why?". What the heck is Dr Zaius tryng to hide from us by covering stuff up like this. I have a hard time believing there is a malicious cover up to hide some sinister fact that Dr. Zaius doesn't want us to know (ie humans evolving from apes rather than apes evolving from humans). Just a benign hubris that a theory can't be wrong if a scientist says so. It's asinine to think that scientists would not think outside the box because that's the whole point of science. We would never have become so technologically advanced had people like Archimedes, Isaac Newton, or Galileo not risked excamunication, heresey charges, exile, and even execution by challenging the popular opinion of the time. We would all think the sun revolved around the earth and that giant sinister sea creatures lurked just beyond the waves if it weren't for them. Now we know different, but scientists covering up or destroying evidence that doesn't support their theory is filthy, unethical, and just plain disgusting in my eyes. Even if it isn't as sinister as it sounds.

 

[Nick in NEPA]

Re: Was Columbus the First Explorer to Visit the Americas? The Evidence Says NO

If Atlantis existed as Pluto described, it would have made trans-Atlantic travel much easier; and the exchange of science, culture, populations, and trade between the Americas and the rest of the world much easier as well. It would have been similar to a naval version of a stop-over for a cross country flight. The crossroads of the world, which could explain why it was so far advanced - learning about the best technologies from its visitors and then improving upon them.

Hey Pather, how about starting now to plan for an education that will enable you to look for Atlantis in 10-15 years? Degree in oceanic archaeology, minor in ancient languages, license for scuba work. Maybe we should make that 20-25 years. LOL


Mr.O, your link doesn't work for me. Bummer.

I am looking at going to a major university with a good archaeological program. I want to teach myself Middle Egyptian and get dive certified (don't forget, there are like three sunken cities in Egypt). Also, I just read that there was an autopsy done on an Egyptian mummy...where they found a ball of cotton in the bandages. But archaeologists tell us that the Egyptians had noy cultivated cotton at this time, meaning that there was TRADE- not just contact, but advanced TRADE- with a culture that was already growing cotton at that time period. Like, say, SOUTH AMERICA or India. This would not be a far stretch, as it is now believed that the pharaoh Necho sent a fleet around the world, or even "just" the southern tip of Africa. AND it has been proven (by Thor Heyerdahl, as in the Kon-Tiki guy) that the simple Egyptian reed boats would have been able to reach North America.
pather
PS- This thread is really kick ass.