The rare craptastic day

[Goldwasher]

It started out feelin pretty good too.

I was on my way to the post office to send Delnorter his EZ pan and going to the county to look at files so I can map out an open in an area with a few claims to help a client prospect. Hopefully have it end up being a good spot for her and her boyfriend to locate a claim.

I had just left my neighborhood and right up the road I pass a Tweetie Bird yellow Nissan frontier 4x4. There aren't too many Stupid yellow trucks where I'm at for me however there is a very specific yellow truck around here.

It belongs to a fellow named Doug or Ray Rinzonni (he goes by both). He owns a company called mORE mining out of Georgetown. He was a dealer for him for a while selling a few of the things he makes. That rolling sluice and sniper/viewer tubes.

I met him when I opened my store he is mainly a nuggethunter. we had several conversations He knew I had claims and where.
Well,last year I moved my store across the highway and had to remodel and open by may I started my new lease in mid March was still working on the creek four days a week. But, Starting April I was remodeling a whole suite, moving, dealing with my daughters softball practices etc.

I had still been hitting the claim two days a week I hadn't swapped out my memory cards in my camera for a few weeks. One day on my way out theres this yellow truck parked near the start of the road. I'm in my heart hoping it isn't Dougray Knowing it is.

I actually had a printed picture map I made of the BLM land and claims on it Our two and the one next to us.I put it under his windshield wiper, headed home. Went to softball practice. Came home checked out my camera videos and images and theres Ray on three different days for eight plus hours each walking out in the dark even.

He uses a minelab sdc whatever the hell folding one that is. There he is on video with it and the same white dog that shows up in his youtube videos.

WTF??

Next day I go down to the claim and where he had been parked he crumpled the map and threw it on the ground. But, not before writing F.U. on the back of it with a sharpie.

FOR REAL

So, I go work for the day. When I get home I call his partner who I also know. He's a geologist. Told him to tell ray he has two days to figure out what he has to say to me before I call the sheriff.

Two days later I call the Sheriff. file the report they go by his house twice. The first time the wife even says.. "oh, your probably here because of Jarrod"

When the deputy finaly runs into him he plays stupid" oh, I saw the yellow signs but, I just had eye surgery"

"if he wants to tell me what is open i'll make sure to only go there"

So, basically nothing was done except he was admonished not to return.

Fast forward back to today. I see him turn around follow hanging back. I had a different vehicle when we met.So, I figure he won't even know it's me.

He didn't see me turn around. So I'm behind him he makes the turn into my neighborhood. Our claims are in a BLM area surrounded by private land. You have to be with a homeowner as a guest to use our common areas our road is private.

We did make eye contact as we passed and a little ways into our hood I figured he may know it was me following him.

Right near the road to our trail is a lake and park. He pulls in there I see him eyeing me in his side mirror I go up the road park for a few minutes and ponder my next step.

Go back to the park and pull in. get out walk over and tell him he's got a lot of nerve. Top get the hell out of my neighborhood. Remind him what a P.O.S. he is he starts getting all defensive and talking about claim markers etc.

Then he tells me how he heard that I got my claim by tricking a club and taking it after they took me there...totally weird and untrue.

When I found him out in the spring I tracked where he had gone on our claims the neighbors and onto the large parcels adjacent to the blm land.

So, I told him what a P.O.S. he was for highgrading and trespassing.

He had some guy with him this time so, I reminded him that he was cruising around with a thief.

I had already called the sheriff right in front of him gave his vehicle and Liscense plate. But, they take forever to show up.

So, the more he tried to claim he could stay and that I was the jerk somehow, the more I tried to verbally get him to allow me to self defend my self all over his stupid face.

Of course he is a stupid coward and left. Now, I have to file another report running into the deputy can take a day or two.

I did wait for a bit where I parked but, I had other things I needed to do.

When I get to the county Recorder. I found out for sure that the new recording tax in Ca. does count for mining claims.

So every mining claim document that has to be recorded now has a $75 dollar tax per document. MINIMUM.

Location notice. Proof of labor. notice of intent to hold.

That $150 bucks added to the cost of filing a new claim. the first year. $75 at time of location recording and $75 when you file the Notice of intent to hold the first time you use the SMW.

And $75 added to annual paperwork. It was less than $50 before total. El Do county is $18 first page $3 for each additional.

Like I said CRAPTASTIC!!!​

 

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[Rail Dawg]

Stop playing the Sherrif game and make a citizens arrest and force him into court. I've done it and it works. Next time you call tell the deputy to get out here and sign off on the citizens arrest and wait however long it takes to get it signed and delivered. That's will get you leverage to get restraining order and more. Why bother with civil when you have the power to drag his butt in front of a judge?!?
He will never do that again once your vigilance is served

I’d like to hear more about citizens arrest.

What’s the best way to do this?

 

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[Garrote Gold]

Say there was accident and road rage incident. One guy claims other punched him but LEO can't see signs or anything they can do cause it's civil, no death threats. So one says citizens arrest and LEO signs off on it and let judge decide.

Or often it's done by lose prevention people in department stores.
Police didn't want to arrest homeless at business that loiter but the owner can demand citizens arrest loitering, trespass and it will get the job done when Leo don't have time for it......you can't detain him if he's not violent ect.

Risky due to the litigious nature, talk to your local LEO about it and most will give you tips or past experiences.

If someone's on my claim not wanted it's a little talk give him chance to go or citizens arrest when I come back with Sherrif and with your game cams the judge will side with you, even if he dismisses it you will get recourse through minimum temporary restraining or stay away order
I would spend 150$ send off cease and desist order too if you know him already.

Once the process service guy shows up at his home or work he will stress out! Why bother you again?

gold fever turns to plague no cure for that guy

And since I'm all buddy buddy with my local LEO , forest service, fish and wildlife people they already know that's what I'm going to do if needed. Next time you run into them run those scenerios by them see what they suggest.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Like I said messin with the wrong guy. We have a local crime watch page and a whats happening page on facebook. His wife sells stuff at the local farmers market.
I will be posting pics and a vague story. But, too many details can be a negative for me.

I don't really like to advertise locally where the claims are so its a fine line.

I will be making sure that the Sheriff stays on his a$$

If it were me, I'd probably back off a little, especially given the public nature of this thread.
The guy probably will grow tired of that area and move on to another claim.
I'd just be up there every day for a couple weeks straight.

It's easy for things to turn personal and things escalate well beyond what either person anticipated.

There is a saying about paybacks and it goes both ways.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Maybe you could make up flyers asking if anyone knows this guy with a photo off the trail cam.
put up a bunch all over, maybe he will get a clue, and might prompt people to watch for other mineral trespassers.
something like this;
Claim Jumper Caught on Film on Briggs Creek, Josephine County

I'm not sure I agree with that tactic.
I have no problem relic hunting on a mineral claim.
Nor do I have a problem crossing a mineral claim to access other prospecting areas.

I'd be awful pissed if someone posted up a picture of me walking past their mining claim sign with the caption that I was committing a crime.

 

[Goldwasher]

lol...It's Todd

You can only make a CA in person . This all happened with video evidence and a parked vehicle I never ran into him in person.

If you try to detain someone and the deputy decides you don't have enough evidence you get arrested for unlawful detainment.

Loss prevention has power of arrest they are carded security guards trained to do so. a store clerk does not have the same power.

I already talked to the deputy about it.

I would have to come across him digging or walking on my claim with mining equipment.

Even blatant trespassing In Ca. will not get a deputy to arrest in Ca. they have to refuse to leave from the officer.

The best way to perform a C.A is with the officer right there. You state what you saw he gives the nod you verbally make the arrest the officer takes over.

Highgraders like this know this stuff and that's why they do what they do.

I'll just keep reporting gathering evidence and keep hoping that I actually catch him on the claim in person. Then I will make a citizens arrest

Keep in mind I know both people who have done this on a personal level before they did what they did. Ray knew I was working on my store and took advantage.

He didn't know I have cameras.

 

[Goldwasher]

I'm not sure I agree with that tactic.
I have no problem relic hunting on a mineral claim.
Nor do I have a problem crossing a mineral claim to access other prospecting areas.

I'd be awful pissed if someone posted up a picture of me walking past their mining claim sign with the caption that I was committing a crime.

It's illegal to detect on a claim that isn't yours regardless if your hunting relics.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

It's illegal to detect on a claim that isn't yours regardless if your hunting relics.

Have a code section to back that up?
Not arguing, just very curious about laws prohibiting coin hunting on a mining claim.

I'm guessing you would have to make the assertion that the coin is metallic and counts as a mineral?
I'd have to see a court case supporting that.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Buried treasure, lost coins and jewelry is not considered a "mineral deposit" as far as I know.
It is treated as a non-minerals related recreational activity on federal lands.

Of course a high grader will probably say his detecting is recreational, not prospecting.
Tough to prove one way or the other, I suspect.

Do I want to be labeled as a high grader because I'm out detecting on a mining claim?
Nope. You won't find me scouring bedrock and mining tailings hunting for "musket balls",
but I fully reserve the right to hunt up some buried coins if the mood strikes me.

 

[Garrote Gold]

just say he harassed you, seems to be in the news lately, and he will be locked up without a trial haha!! #highgradedmetoo

 

[Asmbandits]

Buried treasure, lost coins and jewelry is not considered a "mineral deposit" as far as I know.
It is treated as a non-minerals related recreational activity on federal lands.

Of course a high grader will probably say his detecting is recreational, not prospecting.
Tough to prove one way or the other, I suspect.

Do I want to be labeled as a high grader because I'm out detecting on a mining claim?
Nope. You won't find me scouring bedrock and mining tailings hunting for "musket balls",
but I fully reserve the right to hunt up some buried coins if the mood strikes me.

It is illegal to remove any "artifact" over 50 years old from forest service land. I would imagine that has something to do with it given that most mining claims are located on forest service or blm land. Also could require a permit it looks like based on intentions.

 

[Asmbandits]

Intentions aside I would imagine there has to be some law that corresponds to no metal detecting on a federal mining claim, it would be the equivalent of running a high banker on a claim and saying your only searching for old lead fishing weights, both have the potential outcome of producing minerals that may belong to someone else. You can say you don't take them and that could be true, but the process just has to many similar variables imo to not be associated with potential high grading opportunity that could arise from detecting for anything else.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Intentions aside I would imagine there has to be some law that corresponds to no metal detecting on a federal mining claim, it would be the equivalent of running a high banker on a claim and saying your only searching for old lead fishing weights, both have the potential outcome of producing minerals that may belong to someone else. You can say you don't take them and that could be true, but the process just has to many similar variables imo to not be associated with potential high grading opportunity that could arise from detecting for anything else.

From what I have read, the use of a metal detector to locate a mineral deposit is defined as prospecting, which would obviously be prohibited on a mining claim.

Old lost coins do not count as archeologically or historically significant in my book. Relic hunting...that could be a touchy subject.
Searching for lost treasure, coins and jewelry (using a metal detector) is an accepted recreational activity in most national forests.

 

[Clay Diggins]

It is illegal to remove any "artifact" over 50 years old from forest service land. I would imagine that has something to do with it given that most mining claims are located on forest service or blm land. Also could require a permit it looks like based on intentions.

Not true, there is no 50 year prohibition nor are "artifacts" protected.

You are probably thinking of the Antiquities Act. That Act prohibits "Unauthorized excavation, removal, damage, alteration, or defacement of archaeological resources". That's not just any old item it specifically applies only to items that are "at least 100 years of age" that are "remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest."

Coins, bullets, arrowheads found on the surface, and mining are also specifically exempted from enforcement under the Antiquities Act. Items found where there are no other signs of past human life or activities or where there is no archaeological interest are also exempt.

For the Forest Service to prosecute they are going to have to get their staff archeologist to determine that the object is at least 100 years old and was found in context of an archaeological resource. As several Forest and BLM archies have told me personally that's probably not going to happen on their watch unless you are digging a known site or caught digging native burials. Old junk is just old junk not an item of "archaeological interest" even to an archaeologist.

In my opinion it would be very unwise for a passing detectorist to turn on their detector while on a mining claim. The act of detecting, digging and pocketing what was found on video would probably be enough to get your Sheriff's interest. If there were some gold painted lead "nuggets" found on the detectorist the gig would be up.

I doubt many relic or meteorite detectorists would put back a gold nugget they found on a claim. I know of several meteorite hunters that "accidentally" find gold nuggets while detecting mining claims for space rocks.

Theft is sleazy (and a crime) no matter what the excuse for taking someone else's stuff. Taking most artifacts from the public lands is not a crime. Truth be told most relic hunters I've met could care less about the legal implications of hunting an old settlement or area of archaeological interest.

Heavy Pans

 

[Asmbandits]

Not true, there is no 50 year prohibition nor are "artifacts" protected.

You are probably thinking of the Antiquities Act. That Act prohibits "Unauthorized excavation, removal, damage, alteration, or defacement of archaeological resources". That's not just any old item it specifically applies only to items that are "at least 100 years of age" that are "remains of past human life or activities which are of archaeological interest."

Coins, bullets, arrowheads found on the surface, and mining are also specifically exempted from enforcement under the Antiquities Act. Items found where there are no other signs of past human life or activities or where there is no archaeological interest are also exempt.

For the Forest Service to prosecute they are going to have to get their staff archeologist to determine that the object is at least 100 years old and was found in context of an archaeological resource. As several Forest and BLM archies have told me personally that's probably not going to happen on their watch unless you are digging a known site or caught digging native burials. Old junk is just old junk not an item of "archaeological interest" even to an archaeologist.

In my opinion it would be very unwise for a passing detectorist to turn on their detector while on a mining claim. The act of detecting, digging and pocketing what was found on video would probably be enough to get your Sheriff's interest. If there were some gold painted lead "nuggets" found on the detectorist the gig would be up.

I doubt many relic or meteorite detectorists would put back a gold nugget they found on a claim. I know of several meteorite hunters that "accidentally" find gold nuggets while detecting mining claims for space rocks.

Theft is sleazy (and a crime) no matter what the excuse for taking someone else's stuff. Taking most artifacts from the public lands is not a crime. Truth be told most relic hunters I've met could care less about the legal implications of hunting an old settlement or area of archaeological interest.

Heavy Pans

Barry you should know by now where thinking gets you round here! Didn't know so looked it up and this is what I find:

Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 261.9:
"The following are
prohibited: (g) digging in,
excavating, di
sturbing, injuring, destroying, or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic,
or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any
prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site, artifact, property."
(Historic
means older than 50 years.)

Here is a direct link to the source: https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3840675.pdf

Also the way I read it, I see no differentiating as you describe as far as what constitutes it as relevant other than over 50 years old.

Are you saying that the forest service is spreading miss information!? That could never happen lol.. I only ask as it is important for everyone to know the true legality on this and I'm just confused more now.

 

[Rail Dawg]

Yep high-graders are thief’s no matter what excuse they couch their activity in.

And when one steals from another’s claim I’m convinced it will come around to bite them.

I’m going to talk to the Pershing County Sheriff the next time I’m in Lovelock.

Because if I catch the same high-graders on one of our claims I want a clear course of action.

 

[okbasspro]

Get caught on my claim with a detector and you will be telling your story to the sheriff. In my area he is a miner and will enforce mineral trespassing.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Barry you should know by now where thinking gets you round here! Didn't know so looked it up and this is what I find:

Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 261.9:

That link is to a planning document. Not the CFR and not the law. The Forest Service added on the "(Historic means older than 50 years.)" on their own, it's not in any law. The CFR has to be based on existing law. Here's the 36 CFR 261.9 they pointed to - no 50 year in there, it's made up BS.

Interestingly the planning document you offered does refer to the Antiquities law I quoted. Also interesting is they point to the permitting process (16 U.S.C. 470cc) but neglect to direct you to the law itself (16 U.S. Code § 470bb) - which I just quoted.

No item shall be treated as an archaeological resource under regulations under this paragraph unless such item is at least 100 years of age.

There is no 50 year historic anything. Not in the law. Not even in 36 CFR 261.9. The fact that their internal planning document is incorrect is not unusual but it certainly isn't enforceable. You can't be charged with violation of a planning document.

Heavy Pans

 

[Asmbandits]

Thats pretty ridiculous, they say whatever they want and feed it to the masses... Thanks for pointing that out, might come in handy some day!

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

Get caught on my claim with a detector and you will be telling your story to the sheriff. In my area he is a miner and will enforce mineral trespassing.

Get caught on my claim with a detector and you will be telling your story to the sheriff. In my area he is a miner and will enforce mineral trespassing.

I can think of a clear example...every inch of a nearby creek is encumbered with federal mining claims.
There is a nice picnic area along the road, which parallels the creek. I know from research there used to be a ranger station located here.
I begin detecting the nice sunny flat, while my dog plays in the creek. Prominently displayed on the trunk of a tree nearby is a federal mining claim sign.

Some guy rolls up and says he owns the mining claim and that I need to leave before he calls the sheriff. First I'd have to get over laughing at him, before asking him what legal basis does he have for running me off public lands...I'd be getting pretty irritated, but would offer to call the sheriff myself. Mineral trespass? High grading? Stealing? Hardly.
I can also think of other situations where it could certainly go the other way.
As in the guy in the yellow truck gets caught and claims he is coin hunting.

Point being - I'm not aware of any law which entitles a mining claim holder to enjoy exclusive rights to all forms of metal detecting on their claim. Does not exist until someone can point it out.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Not sure how this double post got here? Carry on.

Heavy Pans