PINTO CREEK

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

As it relates to Pinto Creek, I am reminded of this:

"I believe that also, but I'm pretty certain our views aren't the same. If I understand you correctly, your feeling is that Reed likely had never been to Waltz's mine and had no special knowledge of the location at all. While I have no proof whatsoever, I tend to think he DID have information specific to either Waltz's mine or one of his caches."

Remember who wrote that?

Take care,

Joe

It looks familiar, and I remember when we were discussing Reed but I can't place who wrote it or the specific context. I told you my memory is really fading .

Send me a PM and remind me if you can.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Tried to PM you, but don't think it worked. Anyway, It was someone very, very close to you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Jerry,

Nothing in my email program. I didn't get the last one you sent either. Something is not working..... Try sending an email without a picture attached.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Loke]

Joe,
Much as I hate to admit it (preconceived ideas etc) - there is one (more) point in your favour of the pit mine being the LDM ...
The fact that Florence seemed to be ole Jacob's destination for supplies whenever needed.
I have noticed that people have questioned this in the past - saying that surely, Phoenix would be as likely a target.
Well, if it's down on the south side - Florence would seem a much more likely place than Phoenix!
I still have problems with it being bang, smack in the middle of numerous other mines though ...

Just thinking out loud here ...

Per

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Per,

I don't believe Waltz worked the mine at all. Just like he told Julia and Rhiney. The gold he had came from the caches. There is no evidence that he had vast amounts of gold ore. That leaves us with one question. When was he at the mine last?

From the Bark Notes we have this: "Old Jake said that he had been to the mine but once since he left it, and came to Phoenix. That was fourteen years after he had walled up the tunnel, and that everything was just as he had left it. He did not disturb anything." That would be fourteen years after his partner was killed.

That makes it a little easier to understand the answer to your doubts. It was sometime in the 1860's when Walts first located the mine. How many of the mines on the ridge were being worked in the 60's?

I don't know that going to Florence would have been much better than going towards Phoenix.

It's all just opinion, and mine is usually questionable.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Loke]

It's interesting to note that the Bark Notes make no mention of Waltz having hidden a cache of rich gold ore in the Superstitions. ...

Hmmmmm - the quote doen't seem to agree with your post above, does it?

Per

 

[cactusjumper]

Per,

Jim Bark died around 1938. That was before Ely began to write his book. While the two men searched together, there were many, many times when they were on separate paths in their investigation.

Jim Bark had many hats, so to speak, as did Ely. In reality, searching for the LDM was a hobby for both men. Ely talked to Julia and Rhiney without Jim being there and Bark did the same. Both kept their own notes and had differing memories, I would imagine.

As a newspaper man, I assume Ely questioned people differently than Bark did. I would imagine he might have dug a little deeper for all of the facts possible. Even though the stories are fundamentally the same, it's no surprise that they don't always match word for word or even matching stories.

Where they do, it's obvious that Ely was using the Bark Notes. It may be that Ely got the cache information from Julia or Rhiney on his own, and just never passed it along to Bark. I don't find it that troubling.

Glad to see you posting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

I don't believe Waltz worked the mine at all

So you're saying you believe Waltz found the caches and those were the source of his gold?

I don't know Joe - from your last post, there are an awful lot of assumptions you're making, and I find very little to be "obvious" when it comes to the Bark Notes and Ely's book.

I mean taking something as simple as Bark not mentioning any caches - where you don't find it troubling that Ely may not have shared that information with Bark, I can just as easily make a case that whoever copied the Bark Notes may very well have left that information out. You've mentioned that alot of the stories and legends we have concerning Waltz have likely been "massaged," and you use that reasoning to make some of your points (and I don't disagree by the way), but when I look at the Bark Notes and how they came about into the public eye, all I see are opportunities for "massaging" and altering of the information to suit whoever was the first to see them after Spangler.

I realize we all have to hang our hats on SOMETHING in order to keep researching the LDM legends, but for me at least, the Bark Notes (as we know them today) may very well be one of the sources that have been altered beyond what they originally said.

 

[Blindbowman]

Per,

Jim Bark died around 1938. That was before Ely began to write his book. While the two men searched together, there were many, many times when they were on separate paths in their investigation.

Jim Bark had many hats, so to speak, as did Ely. In reality, searching for the LDM was a hobby for both men. Ely talked to Julia and Rhiney without Jim being there and Bark did the same. Both kept their own notes and had differing memories, I would imagine.

As a newspaper man, I assume Ely questioned people differently than Bark did. I would imagine he might have dug a little deeper for all of the facts possible. Even though the stories are fundamentally the same, it's no surprise that they don't always match word for word or even matching stories.

Where they do, it's obvious that Ely was using the Bark Notes. It may be that Ely got the cache information from Julia or Rhiney on his own, and just never passed it along to Bark. I don't find it that troubling.

Glad to see you posting.

Take care,

Joe said:


"I would imagine"

"i assume"

" I would imagine"


is this where their store change ..in the faults of the treasure hunters and writers that tell the story after its herd ...?

 

[Cubfan64]

I don't believe Waltz worked the mine at all. Just like he told Julia and Rhiney. The gold he had came from the caches.

Joe, according to Ely's book, ch. 8, page 97 (1954 edition), Waltz is quoted as telling Julia and Reiney, "The gold came out of a mine, of course. It was taken out by the two of us and stored nearby." I agree that there's no evidence he had vast amounts of gold, but he does seem to indicate that he (and his partner?) did indeed work inside a mine to remove gold ore and then cache it.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Sorry, thought it was clear that I meant he did not work the mine after his partner was killed. As I read the story, that was how it was.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

Sorry, thought it was clear that I meant he did not work the mine after his partner was killed. As I read the story, that was how it was.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks for clearing it up - I didn't interpret your comment that way at all but if that's what you meant, it makes sense now

 

[Blindbowman]

it should make sense .. i have to agree with joe on this one .. i beleive waltz did not work this mine .more then a few times if he did work itat all

we know from what dick holmes account says the peralta if it was the peralta did and were working the mine when waltz found their camp site ..beyond this we can only make logical guesses to what and why and who .. but some times that logical theory can link us to the truth..

we dont really have any evidence what so ever that even tells us waltz and weiser .. ever really work the mine together more then once .. their bad luck could have taken place the first or second time at the mine .. i feel this is why they reacted the way they did when things went wrong .. i dont think waltz had the gust to work the mine alone ..

often is the case with cold blooded killers .. they have a opossite side of their realities ..


a cold blooded killer on one side , and scared to be alone out there in a scert place ... faith can scare anyone ...lol

 

[Oroblanco]

it should make sense .. i have to agree with joe on this one .. i beleive waltz did not work this mine .more then a few times if he did work itat all

we know from what dick holmes account says the peralta if it was the peralta did and were working the mine when waltz found their camp site ..beyond this we can only make logical guesses to what and why and who .. but some times that logical theory can link us to the truth..

we dont really have any evidence what so ever that even tells us waltz and weiser .. ever really work the mine together more then once .. their bad luck could have taken place the first or second time at the mine .. i feel this is why they reacted the way they did when things went wrong .. i dont think waltz had the gust to work the mine alone ..

often is the case with cold blooded killers .. they have a opossite side of their realities ..


a cold blooded killer on one side , and scared to be alone out there in a scert place ... faith can scare anyone ...lol

I think you put too much reliance on a questionable source that gives you that picture of Waltz as a coward/murderer. The info we have does not 'fit' that image. When did Waltz first enter Arizona? With the earliest pioneers, when the hostile Indians outnumbered the Anglos by a comfortable margin, and all the firearms were single-shots. Waltz was seen going into the mountains ALONE on more than one occasion, in fact he was alone the time that Dick Holmes tried to track him. Does that sound like the cowardly type, too afraid to work at a mine out in the sticks by himself? It doesn't ring right to me; then remember his helping out his friends Julia and Reiney; would a cold-blooded killer do that? I have serious doubts about the same person being so helpful to his friends, and supposedly so murderous that he killed his own partner or nephew etc something is made up and we know that he did help out Julia with his own gold so that means the false is more probably that "murderer" story.

I realize that we have been over this before, and that I am not going to get you to change your mind with a debate; so I just respectfully disagree. If you but think about that cold-blooded, bloodthirsty greedy killer image of Waltz a moment, then realize that he left SO much gold in the mine as to make 20 men millionaires - perhaps you will see that it doesn't make sense. If he were SO greedy of the gold as to kill for it - why leave SO much behind? Wouldn't he have to be dragged from that mine as a corpse rather than just going to live quite humbly in Phoenix? Wouldn't that cold-blooded killer have to practically camp on top of the mine in order to kill anyone who came near the gold he killed to own? Do you see what I am getting at? I just can't buy that "coward-killer" image, which then casts those storied murders in the shadows of doubt for me too. It would seem likely that at least one of the people he supposedly killed would be MISSED don't you think? And yet there is not a single instance of anyone noticing any of those "murder victims" going missing.

Sorry for getting carried away on this point. As for those who hold that Waltz made no trips to the mine after the death of his partner, may I ask on what you base that conclusion? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[Blindbowman]

it should make sense .. i have to agree with joe on this one .. i beleive waltz did not work this mine .more then a few times if he did work itat all

we know from what dick holmes account says the peralta if it was the peralta did and were working the mine when waltz found their camp site ..beyond this we can only make logical guesses to what and why and who .. but some times that logical theory can link us to the truth..

we dont really have any evidence what so ever that even tells us waltz and weiser .. ever really work the mine together more then once .. their bad luck could have taken place the first or second time at the mine .. i feel this is why they reacted the way they did when things went wrong .. i dont think waltz had the gust to work the mine alone ..

often is the case with cold blooded killers .. they have a opossite side of their realities ..


a cold blooded killer on one side , and scared to be alone out there in a scert place ... faith can scare anyone ...lol

I think you put too much reliance on a questionable source that gives you that picture of Waltz as a coward/murderer. The info we have does not 'fit' that image. When did Waltz first enter Arizona? With the earliest pioneers, when the hostile Indians outnumbered the Anglos by a comfortable margin, and all the firearms were single-shots. Waltz was seen going into the mountains ALONE on more than one occasion, in fact he was alone the time that Dick Holmes tried to track him. Does that sound like the cowardly type, too afraid to work at a mine out in the sticks by himself? It doesn't ring right to me; then remember his helping out his friends Julia and Reiney; would a cold-blooded killer do that? I have serious doubts about the same person being so helpful to his friends, and supposedly so murderous that he killed his own partner or nephew etc something is made up and we know that he did help out Julia with his own gold so that means the false is more probably that "murderer" story.

I realize that we have been over this before, and that I am not going to get you to change your mind with a debate; so I just respectfully disagree. If you but think about that cold-blooded, bloodthirsty greedy killer image of Waltz a moment, then realize that he left SO much gold in the mine as to make 20 men millionaires - perhaps you will see that it doesn't make sense. If he were SO greedy of the gold as to kill for it - why leave SO much behind? Wouldn't he have to be dragged from that mine as a corpse rather than just going to live quite humbly in Phoenix? Wouldn't that cold-blooded killer have to practically camp on top of the mine in order to kill anyone who came near the gold he killed to own? Do you see what I am getting at? I just can't buy that "coward-killer" image, which then casts those storied murders in the shadows of doubt for me too. It would seem likely that at least one of the people he supposedly killed would be MISSED don't you think? And yet there is not a single instance of anyone noticing any of those "murder victims" going missing.

Sorry for getting carried away on this point. As for those who hold that Waltz made no trips to the mine after the death of his partner, may I ask on what you base that conclusion? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

i based that cold blooded killer theory on my PPL profiling data on Waltz sorry but he fits the profile more then most would think ..

in fact

if waltz was a serial killer by protective means .. most would see him as a kind and loveing old man that would not hert a fly.. on the other side of that coin if he had caught dick holmes a second time we most like would not have gotten the dick holmes account at all

i voiced my opioion on the state of mind not waltz but his action and reaction to events .. when he contacts someone in talk he is nice and friendly yet look as his react ion to dick holmes in the event .. he dose tell dick to go away .. or not fellow him .. he tells him he will kill him.. i full believe he was being honest to dick at the time he said that .. why .. we only need look at the dick holmes account to see why ..

often with serial killers .. they need very little reason to kill and the prospector he killed ,, he has no real reason to kill him at all .. and he even says so ..

if we are to believe the account wich i do belive a good deal of that account .. maybe not the same way as most others do .. but i have my own reasoning and logical system to define what is realities from the truth that waltz tells people

.. and i full agree with you beth .. waltz dose at time looks to be a nice well mannerd old man ..

so a lot of other serial killers ..is my point .. the only real diffrence is when i listed him in the profiling system as a nice old man .. it dose not match the over all events and accounts ...

and i do disgree with you about one thing .. i dont care if they were savage indains .. you kill a man .. i dont care what color he was .. you never forget it ..

the other point i would like to make is i was not calling him scared to go out there i was saying he was scared to go to the mine .,.. he knew damn well the mine is in the secert place and if he was caught there he would get the same thing others got ..

a few things i noted .. was in this case the idea if he was a killer .. he was a serial killer by his own confession .. secound ..his react to dick holmes suports that profile .. and on the other side .. we see the 3 amonts of gold he was known to have had .. all present in the dick holmes account , thuse other then weiser takeing gold ore from the mine there is no other amounts to account for ..

do i think waltz was a serial killer .. yes .. can we prove it ,, maybe .. if the evidence is still there .. thats why when i located where the peralta camp site was . i was also looking forward to searching for the 3 graves near their camp .. this would out right tell us if the dick holmes account is true or not ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI & sorry BB. You profile setup is quite faulty. The way that you have it setup, you could easily be the latest killer of the superstitions. Where are the last 4 bodies?

Me? I am just a quiet, gentle, loveable guy.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Blindbowman]

HI & sorry BB. You profile setup is quite faulty. The way that you have it setup, you could easily be the latest killer of the superstitions. Where are the last 4 bodies?

Me? I am just a quiet, gentle, loveable guy.

Don Jose de La Mancha

your right ,, i could be a serial killer .. most people could fit the bill now days ..

but the serial killer dose not think the same way most people do .. and thats the only real way to catch them ..

they are getting smarter and are much harder to catch now days ..


IMHO we may never know if waltz killed anyone .. but i must look at all the data .. even if i dont belive it or agree ... thats the true facts

and yes i do agree with you real de .. the 4 missing people could very well be victumes of someone working a old mine .. logically not the LDM .. but you have to under stand ,, people kill other people some times for no real reason yet here we have one word that gives all the motives needed .."GOLD "

even if the mine was played out .. it would most likely not matter in the minds of the person that found it ..or wanted to stop others from takeing it from them ..

i on the other hand am willing to share i just dont have the money to get there right nowe .. i wish i could this would be over and i an many others wouyld be very very wealthy


i dont really value wealth that way but my girlfriend dose ... lol

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

BB mi friend, you posted '': i dont really value wealth that way but my girlfriend dose ... lol
****************
Sheesh Bb, are you just finding out that its built in genetic instinct for females?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Hey, now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo Blindbowman,
It was me that had posted the disagreement above; I cannot buy the idea of a serial killer so greedy of GOLD that he kills to get it, then is so self-less that he gives away thousands of dollars of that same gold just to help out his friends. Sorry but that won't float. Likewise the idea of a prospector SO cowardly, that he goes off to his mine alone, even though he is so frightened that he can't go there alone. If you can't see the problems with that whole part of the Dutchman legend, nothing I can say further is going to help.

Waltz is SO murderous over the gold that he kills men to get it; then goes to live in Phoenix a quiet life as a small time 'hobby' farmer, and gives away thousands of dollars of his blood-money, and doesn't stand guard over the mine?

Waltz is SO cowardly that he can't go back to the mine to work it alone, even though he was seen going there alone and we know from Holmes that incident in which Holmes was following Waltz TO THE MINE, alone.

I don't buy it. Can you name a single serial killer with that kind of behavior pattern?
Oroblanco