PINTO CREEK

[Furness]

BB i think you may be better using the word multiple killer rather than serial killer,

a serial killer sets out deliberately to kill, and tends to follow a patern, he's killing for killings sake,
whilst Waltz killed for diffrent reasons, either to gain the mine or protect it from others, depending on what version of events you belive,
but he didn't go out with the intention to kill,

John

 

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[Blindbowman]

well thats why we deguss topics between us .. because we do belive diffrent theories and data .. IMHO waltz dose not only fit the serial killer profile .. ihe is real good example of of a serial killer ..

the modern world dose have the same lack of back groud history on people .. back when waltz was going back and forth from the mine .. look at the accounts .. after almost every killing he dose in fact react in the same pattern . by return back to Phoenix ...barring the dead is a matter of covering up and hidding what one has done .. and i totally disgree with you Oro on this one .. he fits the profile 100& .. often a serial killer or some types of serial killers . do in fact react just the same way waltz did .. they try to repent after a crime . or even try to stop for a given amount of time .. yet there true nature shines threw at some point .. if i was correct about his reason for giveing dick holmes a diffrent set of dirrections then he gave julia then this dose in fact suport what i am saying now ..

and often people do in fact believe just what your saying thats what make serial killers hard to catch .. they dont fit the patterns un till all the evidence is collected .. and most of the time people & friends see the killer as a totally kind and friendly person ..


it also lets the killer use this to hide and cover up his acts of hate and anger.. and god forbid you in flame his trigger point like dick holmes did ..

the mine my have had a part in this and its one of the reasons i am very careful about spending very much time at the mine ,, the magnetic feilds can and do effect objects and people and animals that get to close to it .. this could be the reaction we see in waltz ..prolonged contack to strong magnetic feilds ...and after he got clear of the mine for a few days or weeks the effects would fade away .. and they do in fact do this pattern ..IMHO

we only have to look at Weiser's reactions to the same site .. one days he is working the mine , a few daysd latter he is running threw the desert all freaked out throwing his gun away and running tell he finds water ...and waltz may have in fact lost track of time a few diffrent times in this legend ..his un patternd clues and hiden dirrections reflect this .. so i have to disagree Oro on this one ..

i respect your opioions ... i know better at this point of puting the legend back into some kind of logical patterns .. waltz is not who most people believe he is .. and the hidden side of one's personality is often in conflect two their realities

 

[Blindbowman]

BB i think you may be better using the word multiple killer rather than serial killer,

a serial killer sets out deliberately to kill, and tends to follow a patern, he's killing for killings sake,
whilst Waltz killed for diffrent reasons, either to gain the mine or protect it from others, depending on what version of events you belive,
but he didn't go out with the intention to kill,

John

there are diffrent types of killers and a serial killer dose not have to start his target by wanting to kill .. the killing is a by product of ones triggerd emotions ... what triggers it is not always the need or feeling to kill, a whole list of reason define those triggers .. protective is in fact one of them .. and waltz dose in fact kill to protect..

to him the mine is like his family, and he most likely would protect it just as most of us would protect our families..

he dose kill multiple victums ..

you say "he didn't go out with the intention to kill" this in fact suports what i am tell you about the mine .. i see the effect i have been there and i do feel those effects as i get closer to it .. i maybe a little more effected by these maginetic feilds then most my sense are those of a blind man .. i never return to normal after my blindness .. and if you look and dont count the event of the peralta camp site in the order then look at the other cases .. it is very logical that waltz is in fact being triggerd to react the way he dose .. the nephew .. they walking toward the mine .. the prospector , he has been at the mine .. the two solders he dose not give us enouhgh back ground one .. yet even his reaction to dick holmes is in the same pattern .. after being in contact to the mine even the thaught of it can trigger the same reaction after the patterns have been in place over time ..

we see this in waltz ,, IMHO there is no question about it ..and i really dont believe the number of victums has any thing to really do with it in this case profile by way of effects from a out side sorce ..like magnetic feilds ..

waltz's reactions are predictable..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi BB, may I ask why, if he was a serial killer, didn't he kill many more of the many prospectors that were roaming in the area of his mine at the same time? Sorry, but I have my bets on Oro, in more ways than one..

Speaking of serial killers . Beth I wasn't including you in that genetic remark, but then You are a delectable female no?

And females do go around singing "Diamonds are a girl's best Friend'" no? Soo according to BB's program -----------??

Blame him luv. I'll have another cup of


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Furness]

BB regarding how you define serial or multiple killers, serial killers in most cases keep doing it until they are caught and the reason they are difficult to catch is because there is no apparent motive, except in there own mind, so the police don't have the usual motives connecting the killer and the victim,

i remember reading this sometime ago,
there was a rich business man who wanted a divorce from his wife, he was well known and respected, but knowing she would get 50% of his money in a divorce settlement he decided to have her killed,
he found a guy who had a record in a local rough area of town who it was said would do anything even murder just for the hell of it, and he was a known violent criminal names Arthur, who's nickname was Arty,
he showed the guy a photo of his wife, arty said she was so ugly he would do it for the price of a beer, about a dollar,
the day afterwards she went shopping, the guy sent various calls on his mobile to her while she was out of the house to give himself an alibi,
arty meanwhile had gone to where she had parked up, it was a walmart store, after she returned to the car he strangled her,
unfortunately he was seen by an old couple who were passing, so to cover his tracks he strangled the old lady and the old guy,
unfortunately for him someone else came past and seeing what had happened alerted security, he was caught leaving the car park and arrested, the local newspaper had a headline the following day, saying Arty chokes three for a dollar at Wallmart,
so is he a serial killer or a multiple killer

john

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Jose - I never sing "Diamonds are a girl's best friend" (Gold Fever, maybe, by Cyril May)

 

[gollum]

BB regarding how you define serial or multiple killers, serial killers in most cases keep doing it until they are caught and the reason they are difficult to catch is because there is no apparent motive, except in there own mind, so the police don't have the usual motives connecting the killer and the victim,

i remember reading this sometime ago,
there was a rich business man who wanted a divorce from his wife, he was well known and respected, but knowing she would get 50% of his money in a divorce settlement he decided to have her killed,
he found a guy who had a record in a local rough area of town who it was said would do anything even murder just for the hell of it, and he was a known violent criminal names Arthur, who's nickname was Arty,
he showed the guy a photo of his wife, arty said she was so ugly he would do it for the price of a beer, about a dollar,
the day afterwards she went shopping, the guy sent various calls on his mobile to her while she was out of the house to give himself an alibi,
arty meanwhile had gone to where she had parked up, it was a walmart store, after she returned to the car he strangled her,
unfortunately he was seen by an old couple who were passing, so to cover his tracks he strangled the old lady and the old guy,
unfortunately for him someone else came past and seeing what had happened alerted security, he was caught leaving the car park and arrested, the local newspaper had a headline the following day, saying Arty chokes three for a dollar at Wallmart,
so is he a serial killer or a multiple killer

john

................ and to answer your question, Arty, in this case, would be a multiple killer.

Best-Mike

 

[Loke]

There is a trick in the trail to my mine

Joe,
How does this fit in with your idea of Pinto Creek? - or is it just another 'red herring'? (misquoted or invented)

Per

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I just have to ask this joe...
was one of the people involved in this discovery, the person who showed the diggers the mine... Mr. Olson of superior.
I know this person was busted bringing a truck load of gold ore out of the iron mountain area...busted by Mr. Martian, chief engineer of magma copper company in the 70's-80's.
not dropping names, just an honest question to this mine...

 

[cactusjumper]

I just have to ask this joe...
was one of the people involved in this discovery, the person who showed the diggers the mine... Mr. Olson of superior.
I know this person was busted bringing a truck load of gold ore out of the iron mountain area...busted by Mr. Martian, chief engineer of magma copper company in the 70's-80's.
not dropping names, just an honest question to this mine...

Don,

Always an easy answer when it's no. Most local Dutch hunters know who worked that mine. Fewer know who showed it to them. That's all I will tell you on a public forum.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

thanks...as you know..i am a historian, not a dutch hunter...


though I must admit, a review of my life has me in disbelief that it actually happened.

 

[cactusjumper]

thanks...as you know..i am a historian, not a dutch hunter...


though I must admit, a review of my life has me in disbelief that it actually happened.

Don,

Even though I am a serious FAN of the LDM, as well as the history of Arizona, I have never done more than research Waltz's history. My main area of interest has always been the LaFrance cave of gold bars. Since my uncle knew Harry, and held one of the gold bars in his hands, I find the story more than believable.

Is there a specific time or series of events in your life that caused your disbelief that it could have happened?

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I believe it began when I witnessed Milton Rose rant on about Ruth...as his nephew attempted to drag me away from the scene...
one of those "say what? moments...
that was in 1966-7? had just moved into superior...hanging out with friends whose surnames keep occurring in this search...
I was told...
that the Spanish entered the area...found prospects all along the dripping springs mountains...we stood at the rose mansion.{great view of the entire superstitions, though known by the builders name...http://arboretum.ag.arizona.edu/}
I was given a serious run down of the issue...as in here, only a few people thought much of me..so I took to ditching school...running wild in the mountains...following the legends...searching for old mines...only found one closed mine in all my wanderings...now that I have a 4x to get up there I will go an take a photo...my knees won't let me climb like a monkey anymore...
but...hearing mr rose, his relatives, others who's names I wish I had permission to rant about...
...chief engineer for magma copper...gave me a wonderful education on mineralization in the pinals...mostly to let me know magma owned it all...and I had been nosing around a bit too much...great friend.
but every time we were in a position to look over the superstitions, he would look in this one area...as if that was where the mine HAD to be...

I knew some big old apache boys who loved black leather, drove an old firebird...had a long heart to heart about my wanderings in the area...

had a mestizo friend make it clear who owned that cave of gold bars joe...an I was to walk away if I did happen upon it...
just one long string of oddities...as if people could say anything in front of that ignorant weirdo...

so I still joust with windmills...susan said I was don Quixote's nephew...

 

[cactusjumper]

I believe it began when I witnessed Milton Rose rant on about Ruth...as his nephew attempted to drag me away from the scene...
one of those "say what? moments...
that was in 1966-7? had just moved into superior...hanging out with friends whose surnames keep occurring in this search...
I was told...
that the Spanish entered the area...found prospects all along the dripping springs mountains...we stood at the rose mansion.{great view of the entire superstitions, though known by the builders name...http://arboretum.ag.arizona.edu/}
I was given a serious run down of the issue...as in here, only a few people thought much of me..so I took to ditching school...running wild in the mountains...following the legends...searching for old mines...only found one closed mine in all my wanderings...now that I have a 4x to get up there I will go an take a photo...my knees won't let me climb like a monkey anymore...
but...hearing mr rose, his relatives, others who's names I wish I had permission to rant about...
...chief engineer for magma copper...gave me a wonderful education on mineralization in the pinals...mostly to let me know magma owned it all...and I had been nosing around a bit too much...great friend.
but every time we were in a position to look over the superstitions, he would look in this one area...as if that was where the mine HAD to be...

I knew some big old apache boys who loved black leather, drove an old firebird...had a long heart to heart about my wanderings in the area...

had a mestizo friend make it clear who owned that cave of gold bars joe...an I was to walk away if I did happen upon it...
just one long string of oddities...as if people could say anything in front of that ignorant weirdo...

so I still joust with windmills...susan said I was don Quixote's nephew...

Don,

Thanks for the reply.

I understand what you are saying here. There have been times when it was hard to understand your personality. It's becoming easier.

Susan is living in Mexico now. She is in the middle of the archives that we would all like to be more familiar with. It's been a number of years since we were last in contact. Great lady. You were very lucky to have her as a mentor.

Thanks for the inside information.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

yes...susan went to mexico city...left me here....waaaaaaa

{if you want to understand me...think Asperger Syndrome...I can do/see/understand the complex...can't do what everyone else considers simple.}

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'morning SM, el Joe. y the multitude of other friends in here etc. Joe has asssted in making a huge pot of the Oro's genuine sock coffee, so drink up and back to the purpose of this forum, Talk yer heads off.


Don Jose de La Mancha (the windmill hunter )

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

howdy don jose..was wondering if that would bring you out...didn't know you had a blue eyed nephew?

only thing I learned at the university was how to drink coffee...

aand my southern friend...how'd ya like to recover some mountain howitzers lost by senor villa on his ill-fated trek to Naco in 1915..
lost seven French made cannon...just south of that wonderful border...{useless}
i'd have an inability to communicate with the locals...but...have been offered 50,000 $, a piece for recovery...

 

[cactusjumper]

howdy don jose..was wondering if that would bring you out...didn't know you had a blue eyed nephew?

only thing I learned at the university was how to drink coffee...

aand my southern friend...how'd ya like to recover some mountain howitzers lost by senor villa on his ill-fated trek to Naco in 1915..
lost seven French made cannon...just south of that wonderful border...{useless}
i'd have an inability to communicate with the locals...but...have been offered 50,000 $, a piece for recovery...

Don,

I find that hard to believe. In fact, I don't believe it at all.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

why not joe...found an obscure reference to the cannon in a text susan handed me..
follow the old trail from casa grandes to agua prietia....rain storm, mules off the side of the ravine...within a few miles of the us border...villa's troops were being shadowed by us cav, so avoided agua prietia, swung around and attacked naco...massive failure in movement an assault...villa lost the revolution on that mission.

oops...perhaps it was 1916

ask sue...she is kinda pissed at me for wanting to recover the objects.
spoke with Mexican cultural attaché officer at NAU, when he visited for a seminar...he said go for it....but..nasty narcos, an federal troops make it diffictult.

 

[cactusjumper]

why not joe...found an obscure reference to the cannon in a text susan handed me..
follow the old trail from casa grandes to agua prietia....rain storm, mules off the side of the ravine...within a few miles of the us border...villa's troops were being shadowed by us cav, so avoided agua prietia, swung around and attacked naco...massive failure in movement an assault...villa lost the revolution on that mission.

oops...perhaps it was 1916

ask sue...she is kinda pissed at me for wanting to recover the objects.
spoke with Mexican cultural attaché officer at NAU, when he visited for a seminar...he said go for it....but..nasty narcos, an federal troops make it diffictult.

Don,

Susan and I have not been in touch since she moved to Mexico City. Our last exchange was in 2010 when I wrote to her concerning her upcoming retirement and move to Mexico. I would love to get back in touch with her but am unsure how to get her current e-mail address.

This is one of the things I said to her: "That sounds, very much, like a lifelong adventure. Just the historic vibrations that will be coming from the archives in the City, will probably be keeping you awake nights, I know that would be the case for me."

Hopefully a new book will be the end results of her returning to Mexico City.

As for Pancho Villa: A fine book was written from his memoirs by Martin Luis Guzman in 1965. Guzman actually rode with Villa. Unfortunately, the narrative only covers the period up to 1915.

Guzman was supposed to write another book from 1915 forward, but I can find no mention of its being written or published.

Take care,

Joe