1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

[Chagy]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

In 1563 there was hurricane. I ignore if it reached the Florida, but the fleet of New Spain of Juan Menéndez Aviles it was surprised by one at 70 leagues before Bermuda and the hurricane lasted 6 or 7 hours. I verified the captain's disappearance, apparently shipwrecked in the Bahamas, but I didn't find anything with respect to a Magdalena.

Claudio,

I verified the information on Marx book with Seville et l'Atlantique and the "Magdalena" did exist. As a matter of fact is the fist one listed in Juan Menenedz fleet..But as you say i have not find any evidence to confirm that it did wreck in Florida...

Chagy.....

 

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[ripdog21]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

I found this message written about the Santissima Concepcion. It claims that people believe the wreck is south of Key Biscayne just off of Fowey rocks. Here is the link:

http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/treasures31.html

Quite a ways from St Augustine.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

That link contained some pretty dubious information. First it mentions (as do the other accounts) that it was lost "below the Cape".

Then it said it was found by soldiers and it was off Key Biscayne and Fowey Rocks.


What soldiers? On Key Biscayne in 1683. I don't think so.

 

[jeff k]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

The soldiers were sent down from St. Augustine to try and find the wreck, and the "Cape" could be referring to Cape Florida (Key Biscayne). Also, in one of Marx's books he mentions that the hurricane hit shortly after passing Key Largo.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

humm most folks think of the "cape" as cape canaveral but there are other spots called "cape" also -- humm seems that the soldiers came "down" from st augustine -- and the chest with the "unregistered" jewelry was found "shortly" after the wreck it says --so the soldiers could not have taken too long to get to the chest -- cape canaveeral is much closer to st augustine -- than "cape florida" --in the keys --- but it might be worth while to check out period maps for other locations with the "cape" name as well.

 

[Peg Leg]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

I disagree.
I believe that it was Cape Canaveral.
The reason is that if it was anywhere else they would have sent a ship but it says SOLIDERS WERE SENT DOWN FROM ST. AUGUSTINE. On the East Coast there is only ONE Cape and that is Cape Canaveral.
You guys are reading more into this statement than what is being said.
Peg leg

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

Also, in one of Marx's books he mentions that the hurricane hit shortly after passing Key Largo.


Actually, in one Marx's books it says the ship reportedly sunk "a 12 hour sail north of Key Largo." That could be a good distance! Consider too that even if you lowered your sails and just rode the gulf stream current, you'd still be doing 3-4 knots.

 

[jeff k]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

mad4wrecks... That's right, I couldn't remember the exact quote. How far do you think they could have sailed to the north of Key Largo in 12 hours, especially if the winds started picking up from the NE?

 

[FISHEYE]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

mad4wrecks,

A ship sailing at 4-5 knots sailing into the wind for 12 hours.i doupt they made it past miami.with a sailing vessel you just cant go where you want to in a straight line.you have to tack back and forth to get upwind.this takes alot of time.

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

True.

But several posts in this thread stated that there is no historical evidence of a hurricane in 1683.

So we cannot be sure the ship was sailing into the wind.

If you are in the north flowing gulf stream and have the typical south Florida S/SE summer winds behind your back, you can travel quite a distance in 12 hours.

And the gulf stream gets very close to shore in the Palm Beach area.

(Maybe it was those Ais indians on the beach, drawing ships near with their fires?)

 

[chipveres]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

My 2 cents: Over the years at least three places on the east coast of Florida have been refered to as "The Cape".

1. The big, obvious Cape Canaveral.
2. Present-day Cape Florida, at the south end of Key Biscayne.
3. Elbow Reef off Key Largo.

I think from the context of going to Saint Augustine they are talking about Cape Canaveral.

Chip V.

 

[CaribBrad]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

I know this thread is old but I am new and trying to "catch up". The references to the hurricane given by nhc.noaa.gov, etc reference Singer, S., 1992: Shipwrecks of Florida as their source and since he references Bob Marx it is a big circle all pointing back to Mr. Marx on the "El Grande" (1683 version) ship.....

I was curious about two other ships that also supposedly wrecked in about the same place; San Igancio and Santa Maria de la limpia Concepcion both lost in 1571 "several leagues south of cape Canaveral". Mr. Marx said these had 2.5 million pesos worth of goods and only the masts, etc were ever found.

Brad

 

[ivan salis]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

the very tip end of mainland florida by the keys area - historically - long long ago was called "cape florida" * on certain maps *--- so the statement that they wrecked 12 hours sailing time past the keys / cape must mean the tip end of florida or "cape of florida" ---since theres no way they could sail to "cape canaveral" in that 12 hour time frame--- since those vessels only did 3 to 5 knots or so because they were so heavily loaded--- 12 hours x 3 to 5 kt speed --- 36 to 60 kts --which gives you a 24 knot window of possibilty of where it sank ( 24 knots at 1 1/8 miles per knot is 27 mile long box --still quite large but hunt the reefs and snags spots along certain "popular depth lines " )this will give you a rough distance starting from the tip of florida to start looking at

a wreck near say modern day maimi --in those days salvors working out of st augustine --- would have wrote of it as being "south of the cape" meaning ( cape canaveral-- a commonly used land mark by them) as in we sent folks to southern florida below "cape canaveral"to look for the wreck --- which would jive

now the ship wrecked mariners of course were speaking of "cape florida" ---when they spoke of "cape" in their writing -- saying once we passed the keys and cape ( meaning the "cape of florida") we wrecked about 12 hours later.

so the wreck is 12 hours sailing time northward from the tip of florida (tip of florida area)--however far that was due to sailing conditions --only god knows - there is a lot of factors at play in the mix ----the weather and vessels sailing ability's and overall condition -- plus the skill of the sailors handling her. --good luck. --- Ivan

 

[pcolaboy]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

My feeling is that more than a few ships ended up on the shoals at the very south east of the Cape.

I've been thinking the same thing ever since I learned to look at maps and know the routes of the homeward fleets. It makes perfect sense.

Pcola

 

[aquanut]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

Hey Fisheye,
How long ago did you find El Grande? It's been about three years since the prediction that you were to find it within two years... LOL
Aquanut

 

[jeff k]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

Here's something else to consider. Potter claims the Santa Teresa sank off Colombia in 1683, with only 4 survivors. What are the odds that two different ships sank in the same year with only 4 survivors each?

 

[The Hun]

Re: 1683 "Santissima Concepcion" aka "El Grande"

In 1683, the 700 ton galleon, “Santissima Concepcion,” alias “El Grande,” commanded by Admiral Manual Ortiz Arosemena, heading for Spain after taking on treasures at Porto Bello, Panama; Cartagena, Colombia; Veracruz, Mexico; and making a stop at Havana, was totally destroyed

Less than a year ago i talked with a Psyhic online.she knew nothing about me or what i was into.but she did say that within 2 years i would find the El Grande shipwreck.i thought this was interesting.so now i will look for it.

You have 3 months in poverty only..

 

[aquanut]

Hey Chagy, I think I know where she lies now but I don't have the money to get to her.

In Tennessee?

 

[lockdownking]

comment deleted

 

[aquanut]

I cannot respond to that comment in a positive way so I will not respond to it.
Surrounding myself with positive people, and much research is the only right thing to do.

Where's your sense of humor?