1715 fleet pop quiz

[billinstuart]

So there is a school of thought that feels there is a 1715 ship somewhere between Jupiter Island and Jensen Beach? There have also been occasional inlets at Pecks Lake/Kingfishhole..the most recent in the 1960's. In early times this could also be construed as "St. Lucie Inlet"?? The current inlet had to be dynamited to have enough depth through this reef.

Starting North of the current Jupiter Inlet, there is a string of longshore reefs. The water on both sides of these reefs is fairly deep, but the reefs are shallow enough to wreck even the smallest ship in a storm. These have been very well explored by lobster hunters, yet no mention of any shipwreck debris is ever comes up. Tommy Gore did allude to a site in his book, though. but I think it pre-dated 1715.

 

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[Chagy]

Yes Bill there is a letter written by Lima were he gives the location of his wreck which would put the wreck some where down there......Jupiter, St. Lucie inlet, Jenssen, area.

 

[Darren in NC]

The Urca was extensively salvaged and then burned to the water line. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be any shipwreck debris, but it would lessen the amount of it for sure. I assume the munitions and anchors (what was left) were salvaged as well. If not, finding them today would be very difficult. It's sad, but many cannon have been recovered for scrap during the last century. I have seen a Florida photo of 50+ cannon spread out on a lot, salvaged during the wartime efforts. Countless others were, too. This was prior to Kip Wagner's dicoveries. So it's feasible that very little is left of this wreck - and many of the others over centuries of maritime accidents close to shore.

 

[SebastianSam]

here are a few examples of what Darren mentioned.

 

[billinstuart]

Chagy, is it possible the letter misinterpreted the exact location? Like Romans mislocating some features on his map. If it was described as "south of St. Lucie Inlet" for instance, the Pepper Park location would apply, as the Ft. Pierce inlet (natural) was, at that time, north of Pepper Park.

Besides, anything south of the present St. Lucie (Stuart) inlet is protected by that shallow and hard longshore reef system.

I respect your knowledge on this subject, I'm just wondering if there could be a flaw in the original information.

Bill

 

[brethren of the coast]

I have seen enough of the materials discovered at Tiger Shores, in the water and on the beach, to be convinced that one of Ubilla's ships came to rest there.

 

[billinstuart]

Do tell, brother, do tell. But didn't Diverlynn's group come up kinda empty? Or did our "beach renourishment" destroy the site??

 

[ivan salis]

in fines book --when he was he speaking with bob "frogfoot" weller --who said "san miguel excelsis" (the english prize vessel - a bilandera ) was sent to ahead to havana and later rejoined with echeverzs fleet in havana . -- (now what became of this vessel? ) since only 6 vessels are recorded as leaving with the Echeverz fleet --

Echeverz had a habit of using his patron saint name -- NEUSTRA SENORA DE LA CARMEN and also of using SAN MIGUEL --- ON MANY OF HIS VESSELS LEADING TO OVERLAPPING NAMES --- THUS OTHER NAMES OR NICK NAMES WERE COMMONLY USED TO SEPRATE THEM ONE FROM THE OTHER BOTH THEN AND NOW.

#1 at echeverz's first stop in bound (Puerto Rico) he dispatched the SAN MIGUEL to havana, cuba to get loaded with tabacco * -- I call this the (NAO) SAN MIGUEL (THE TOBACCO HAULER)--SHE REJOINS THE FLEET UPON THEIR RETURN TO HAVANA LATER.

THE REMAINING 3 VESSELS THEN HEAD TO CARTAGENA THEN TO PORTO BELLO (PANAMA)
these vessels were

#2 the 265 TON ARMED CARGO SHIP (NAO)-- NEUSTRA SENORA DE LA CONCEPCION SAN JOSE Y SAN FRANCISCO - (carrying some treasure- 3000 peso's in gold , 4 gold bars worth 5703 pesos and other items ) with a 136 man crew survivors of which land on the beach in the area of cape canaveral and who walked to st augustine (might be the wreck found by rex off of melborne)

#3 THE CAPITANA --NUESTRA SENORA DE LA CARMEN ( #1 MAJOR TREASURE VESSEL)

#4 THE ALMIRANTA -- NUESTRA SENORA DE LA ROSARIO (#2 MAJOR TREASURE VESSEL)

when echeverz arrived in porto bello and found that it would be sometime before the treasure would be delivered he went raiding on illegal trading vessels in the area (spain's veiw was that only she had the right to trade with her colonies no one esle--so trading vessels were grabbed and impounded if found close to spain's colony's.)
they did well taking 3 vessels *

# 5 the dutch prize galley (galera) class vessel known by several names -"La Holandesa" (the dutch)---Olandesa (dutch) and Senor de la Popa (former captian's name)--- noted in the records wreckage of the upper deck works being used a shelter by echeverz during salvage efforts.(bought for 2,000 peso at royal auction --porto bello)

# 6 the french prize frigate (galera type) class *(a rowible small frigate type vessel)* vessel known as "El Ciervo" (the stag) cargo 96 tons of brazilwood ---(bought at royal action for 4.125 peso in porto bello)

# 7the the small english prize ( bilandera / a sloop type vessel)* - renamed SAN MIGUEL DE EXCELSIS by echeverz -- had a 15 man crew put upon her and was sent off to havana (oddly this vessel IS NOT noted as leaving with echeverz's fleet of 6 vessels as they left cuba)* was this vessel's original name "maria galante" and was she the vessel Ubilla bought in havana when he arrived ?

note salmon gave the ok to the padre of the "patache nuestra senora de la regala" to go st augustine for help on august 6 1715 -- ubilla only had 5 vessels in his fleet --

#1 the massive former hampton court (NEUSTRA SENORA DEL REGALA ) THE CAPITANA (UBILLA'S VESSEL)

#2 the SANTO CHRISTO DE SAN ROMAN ---THE ALMIRANTA (SALMON'S VESSEL)

#3 THE URCA DE LIMA *AKA --SANTISIMA TRINIDAD Y NUESTRA SENORA DE LA CONCEPCION

#4 THE PATACHE --NUESTRA SENORA DE LAS NIEVES Y LAS ANIMAS

#5 -- UBILLA'S PRIVATE HAVANA BOUGHT SMALL FRIGATILLA / PATACHE TYPE VESSEL --(ALSO NAMED BY UBILLA ) NUESTRA SENORA DEL REGALA *

 

[mariner]

Ivan,

In an earlier thread, I recall that somebody commented about how one of the 1715 fleet might have had 60 chests of emeralds loaded onto her at Cartegena. I recall that somebody said that Mel Fisher believed this to be the case.

You have done a lot of research into the 1715 fleet, and I wonder if you believe there could be any truth in this rumor (at best it is a rumor). If it was the case, then presumably it as probably the Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion that was carrying this extra cargo. I have done virtually no research into the 1715 fleet, but I notice that you quote some specific elements of the Concepcion's cargo. Is her cargo well documented? And if so, what do you think of the possibility that she also had some unregistered cargo, in the form of emeralds, on board?

Mariner

 

[mad4wrecks]

I found this interesting interpretation of the 1715 wrecks from a newspaper article, posted at the House Of Refuge museum at Gilbert's Bar.

 

[brethren of the coast]

Do tell, brother, do tell. But didn't Diverlynn's group come up kinda empty? Or did our "beach renourishment" destroy the site??

You might try asking Diverlynn. I think she was with Amelia during their time at Tiger Shores.

My thoughts are:
1) They didn't dig in the right spot(s)
2) The Polly-L never seems to stay on one wrecksite very long

 

[billinstuart]

Good possibilities. The search was precipitated by reports of cannons in the water, which were never found. IF the Urca was indeed at this site, wouldn't it have been on the beach? Wouldn't the cannons have been salvaged by the original salvage operations? How did the URCA get across the hard offshore reef without total destruction?

I guess my main question is..what is really at Pepper Park?

BTW, simply gorgeous day at the beach yesterday. Clear water, low tide, just warm enough. Didn't find anything, but who cares

 

[ivan salis]

the urca of lima ---according to reports USED HER ANCHORS and wedged herself BETWEEN TWO REEFS -- her down fall came when her hull struck a fluke on one of her anchors holing her hull and sinking her -

 

[Chagy]

Now that I see that pic of the Polly-L in Tiger Shores I remember of a very funny story (true story)
After reading the Lima letters and with the location provided by Lima I decided to compare the Bernard Romans map with 1700s surveys and google earth I came to the conclusion that the Urca was in one of 3 locations. So I called by buddy Scubafinder to go on a 5 day field search we tuck all our documents, maps, charts, computers, metal detectors and diving gear. We dedicated an entire day for each site. On the night of day 2 Jason (Scubafinder) my wife Lucy and I had maps, charts and surveys all over the walls and tables of the hotel room one laptop viewing google earth and the other viewing virtual earth. After a few hours of comparing and measuring we agreed on a site. On google earth we used as a land mark 3 houses that had orange tile roofs. So the next morning we are driving and looking for those houses. Finally we found them and as incredible as it might sound the was a public beach entrance right there next to the 3rd house exactly on the spot we wanted to go.....I remember how exited we were. So we got our gear and head to the beach. When we got to the beach the first thing we saw was the Polly-L right there really close to shore...I still have that image in my head, exactly that pic that was posted. The Polly-L had beat us to the spot. We didn’t even bother to search the site. We just stud there and watch. There was an old man standing there and he told us; I’m just waiting to see if they find them. So we asked him, find what? The old man said that he had lived all his life in that area and that as a kid he remembers seeing cannons. We were sad because the Polly-L had beat us to the site but we were happy because we had done a great research.

 

[ivan salis]

as you know chagy good researcjh is the key Ivan

 

[Chagy]

Finally I found the letter.......

ESCRIBANIA DE CAMARA 55c
September 20, 1715, Palmar de Ayz - Francisco Salmon to the King;
"We were hit by a bad storm on the day of 28 July and it increased in its fury each hour which obliged me to take down the two main sails, but I left the storm sails up which the wind blew away. The main mast was badly damaged, the rudder broken in many pieces, and the bowsprit and foremast dismasted. Using all human diligence we dropped two anchors in twelve fathoms of water, but they dragged and after two hours we were thrown on some reefs in four fathoms of water and the second time the ship hit the reef the ship broke in three pieces. The center of the ship broke and stayed below the water, but the bow and stern of the ship were thrown closer to shore, which was responsible for saving most of the people. However, 82 drowned. And at a distance of two leagues, four hours earlier before we sank, the Capitana of the Flota sank and the General and over 200 persons drowned.
The Capitana of the Galleons of Echeverz and the Almiranta ran aground at five leagues distance and all the other ships were sunk not far away; however, all the ships sunk on the same island. Until now, the number of ships lost are nine and two of the galleons are missing. There is little doubt they sank on the high seas, and this was proven because fragments of a ship or ships were found on the north coast of St Augustine.

 

[mariner]

Chagy,

Great story about finding the Polly-L there, and what a great first-hand account the letter provides.

I must stop reading this thread, as I am developing an itch. What are the first symptoms of 1715 fever?

Thanks, everybody, for the enjoyment this thread is giving the rest of us.

Mariner

 

[Chagy]

Chagy,

Great story about finding the Polly-L there, and what a great first-hand account the letter provides.

I must stop reading this thread, as I am developing an itch. What are the first symptoms of 1715 fever?

Thanks, everybody, for the enjoyment this thread is giving the rest of us.

Mariner

Well my dear friend,

It all starts when you are not able to sleep because all you want to do is read about the 1715 fleet and finally when you are able to sleep you wake up in the middle of the night screaming “I found the gold”
Its starts getting bad when you find your self dragging your wife with a metal detector for 6 to 8 hours on a Florida east coast beach for 4 or 5 days in a row. It gets worst when you start gathering with 10 guys who have your same symptoms and all you talk about is the 1715. It gets critical when you get to this point (see pics)

 

[ivan salis]

yes that quote from the sept 20, 1715 salmon letter -- speaking of the 2 missing vessels and the fact that they were feared lost at sea and the reasoning why he tought so was " wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast of st augustine " was used by many folks to think that the nassau sound wreck was an original 1715 fleet wreck --- they read it as "wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the coast north of st augustine!!!! -- when in fact. what it meant was that wreckage debris had washed ashore on the northern coast area of st augustine from vessels that broke up off shore at sea.

the real info of what the nassau sound wreck was is clearly spelled out in govenor spotswood's letter of oct 24th, of 1715 -- he in it clearly states that --a rescue vessel (barcalonga) was sent from havana to the 1715 fleet wreck sites to pick up VIP'S and treasure and that it wrecked about 40 miles to the northward of st augustine (ie nassau sound)
thus while not one of the original fleet --it would indeed have 1715 fleet treasure on it (very possibly high dollar vip and royal stuff) --spotswood is well known for his spy and intell network (he was the person who sniffed out blackbreads where about and sic'ed Lt Mayard on him.

 

[Chagy]

No cure has been found for the 1715 fever and I hope they never find it...It does feel better when you get to share moments like these with your best friends and family (see pics) but all the symptoms come back when you get back home......