Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[Hal Croves]

Ellie,
Thank you for that.
But it is more like a "desperate" researcher. I think that my need to know about these things will eventually lead me to the mad house like the others before me.

It must be obvious.

 

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[Hal Croves]

We cant delete doubled
posts?

 

[Cubfan64]

Just so it doesn't distract from this thread anymore, here are the specifics on the Nebraska "angle" since nobody else appears eager to post them...

If you go to this link, you can just type in Nebraska for the state and Waltz for the last name. The first patent listed is for a Jacob Waltz in Custer Co. Nebraska dated 5/16/1890. To the left of the entry is a link to the actual document which I've also posted below - I had to cut and paste the different sections together to get a complete document, but it doesn't change anything - and the link will take you to the actual document itself in case you want to make sure I'm not fabricating anything.

Search - BLM GLO Records



The next image is taken from the 1878 agreement between Waltz and Starar - it's simply their names posted near the end of the document. A link to the document has been posted before, so I won't waste space repeating it.


The last image is an expanded section from the Nebraska patent just for comparison sake



First of all, as Ellie and others have already stated a number of times, the names on these documents are most likely NOT the actual signatures of the persons in question. They are handwritten by the folks recording the documents, so it's not possible to accurately draw any conclusions regarding what may or may not match. That said, it's pretty clear that the Nebraska handwritten "Jacob Waltz" doesn't match the Arizona handwritten "Jacob Waltz."

As folks like Garry, Hal and Ellie will I'm sure agree, research into things like this is akin to slowly peeling the layers of an onion. It's not enough to just grab each and every random image and story and present it as if it's the only truth out there.

Ellie and Hal - in a small community like Phoenix was back in those early days of 1870-1880, it only makes sense that the early pioneers (who were ambitious and entrepreneurial by their very nature) would be highly influencial. The separation between the "haves" and "have nots" back then was probably not much different than it is today in a small town. Power, money, greed, influence, etc... were all present in those time, and it's easy to convince oneself of conspiracies and sinister partnerships, however proving it is likely to be impossible because we're so far removed from the situation that we'll never know all the particulars.

Unless of course, someone, someday can come up with a real "smoking gun" that links some of this all together.

* By the way, since I'm using the ignore button these days, I'm curious if anyone has ever followed through with posting the "real and authentic" obituary for Andrew Starar since the ones I provided are claimed to be frauds. If so, do me a favor and send me a PM with a link - thanks.

 

[wrmickel1]

Encourage them to switch to duck or enlist them to help dig out that vein... the customers, and if they are smart enough, the chickens. I hear they work for feed.

If you have proof, it most certainly will not be ignored.


"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's ass by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?"

Tommy

Holly Smokes Hal!

Do you know what this means, Chslburns will be tracking down every butcher in the world
to have a good long look in each one. I hope he dos'nt get stink eye! That would be to bad.



Wrmickel

 

[chlsbrns]

* By the way, since I'm using the ignore button these days, I'm curious if anyone has ever followed through with posting the "real and authentic" obituary for Andrew Starar since the ones I provided are claimed to be frauds. If so, do me a favor and send me a PM with a link - thanks.

No. I am holding out until you post all the "Facts" about the LDM that you promised to post but never posted. You also claimed that you would read the links I posted and comment on the info but you never did that either. You know the legal docs showing that Waltz is a thief.

Maybe that's why he split from AZ and landed shortly after arriving in Nebraska in an insane asylum?

 

[Hal Croves]

No. I am holding out until you post all the "Facts" about the LDM that you promised to post but never posted. You also claimed that you would read the links I posted and comment on the info but you never did that either. You know the legal docs showing that Waltz is a thief.

Maybe that's why he split from AZ and landed shortly after arriving in Nebraska in an insane asylum?

Actually, if you read through it, you see that the body of this document was penned by the same person who wrote the name Jacob Waltz.
BUT, that document was penned and signed at Washington D.C. which confirms Cubfan64's observation that the signatures are not alike to the Waltz on file in AZ. They are not.

However, your Nebraska Waltz idea is not dead. Waltz never signed that document, never could have, nor should he have.
Your nutty homesteading Waltz still is a possibility because of the lack of a signature. I think that is very curious.

But in fairness, this topic deserves its own thread.

 

[Cubfan64]

Actually, if you read through it, you see that the body of this document was penned by the same person who wrote the name Jacob Waltz.
BUT, that document was penned and signed at Washington D.C. which confirms Cubfan64's observation that the signatures are not alike to the Waltz on file in AZ. They are not.

However, your Nebraska Waltz idea is not dead. Waltz never signed that document, never could have, nor should he have.
Your nutty homesteading Waltz still is a possibility because of the lack of a signature. I think that is very curious.

But in fairness, this topic deserves its own thread.

Hal, if you REALLY want to make your eyes bleed, but at the same time see history come to life, start reading through the Maricopa County Probate records from 1870-1930. It's amazing how many of the same names keep showing up (at least in the 1875-1885 time frame) as executors, creditors, etc... It's fascinating to see the results of estate auctions with the prices of items that sold and the names of the people who purchased them. I've run into the Starar's names at least 6-10 times so far as witnesses to things, purchasing items, etc... It's also a good place to look for authentic signatures of people for comparison purposes. There's NO WAY anyone could ever mistake an authentic Andrew or Jacob Starar signature after seeing the real thing - they are VERY distinctive - they must have had good German schooling .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cubber: just for fun I threw my name into the research pot and found that I am a noted Physicist, Med Doctor, tropical Tramp, discoverer of a Legendary mine, miner, steel worker, a convict still in a federal jail, a religious fanatic. and on, so merely using a name for research could get very confusing.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[chlsbrns]

I got the flu & feel like crap so i forgot the details but if anyone is interested they can search Nebraska newspapers to see if they can find the 1890/91 article that begins with something such as:

Jacob Waltz originally from Phoenix has been commited to an asylum & hired (first/last name) ect ect ect.

It definitely says... Jacob Waltz originally from... Then... Phoenix or Arizona or both

 

[Cubfan64]

Possible actual signatures of Jacob and Andrew Starar - these could still be written by a clerk or recorder, but if you look at the rest of the writing on the page, it looks as though the signatures are authentic and not done by the same individuals. Nothing too exciting, but it might be nice down the road to have true signatures of the brother to compare with others.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1971-27479-1494-38?cc=1987651&wc=MM25-F38:635780176



https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-27479-1509-19?cc=1987651&wc=MM25-F38:635780176

 

[Hal Croves]

I got the flu & feel like crap so i forgot the details but if anyone is interested they can search Nebraska newspapers to see if they can find the 1890/91 article that begins with something such as:

Jacob Waltz originally from Phoenix has been commited to an asylum & hired (first/last name) ect ect ect.

It definitely says... Jacob Waltz originally from... Then... Phoenix or Arizona or both

Sorry to Cubfan64 for this post.

I looked at the papers and found a few things regarding this Nebraska idea. The only related article that I could find has no mention of Jacob Waltz being from Arizona. I may have simply not found it. What I did find was an interesting story about a man named Jacob Waltz, a Nebraskan homesteader who was confined against the advice of doctors who, along with family, believe him to be completely sane. It appears that this Jacob Waltz was originally from Iowa and unfortunately, or fortunately for Jacob, he received a pension in 1890, than again in 1892.

Jacob Waltz, the one connected to this thread anyway, was already dead.

Unless you can produce that article mentioning Arizona, your theory, a good one I thought, is done.
20 minutes and some reading would save you quite a bit of aggravation.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hi All,

As was mentioned earlier the Masonic connection IMHO is something worth investigating. With the permission of author Gary David from his book "Eye of the Phoenix", chapter 5, "Phoenix--Masonic Metropolis In the Valley of the Sun," I present the following excerpt:

Birds of a Feather

Perhaps it is no accident that most of the first citizens of Phoenix, including Duppa, were Freemasons.

John T. Alsap, for instance, was an attorney, judge, first territorial treasurer, and first mayor of Phoenix. He also served as the first worshipful master of Arizona Lodge No. 2 as well as the first grand master of the Masonic Grand Lodge of Arizona. Even earlier, he had been first master of Arizona's first Masonic Lodge called Aztlan, located in Prescott, the first territorial capital. (A lot of "firsts" here.)

Aztlan is a Nahuatl word meaning "place of the heron." The Aztecs inhabited this mythical land after emerging from the Seven Caves located in the bowels of the earth. The heron is thought to be the naturalistic model for both the phoenix and the Bennu bird. In the Egyptian sun cult the Bennu was found perched atop an obelisk or sometimes upon a pyramid-shaped stone of meteoric iron called a Benben.

As a primary symbol of morning and new life, the Egyptian heron passes with flying colors (pun intended). Likewise, the Bennu embodies the morning star Venus, appearing each dawn on the laurel tree in Heliopolis. This ornithological curiosity is also the incarnation of the heart (or ab) of Osiris and the soul (or ba) of Ra, two primary deities related by this simple word reversal.

The hieroglyph for bennu means both "purple heron" (Ardea purpurea) and "palm tree." One denotation for the word "phoenix" is "purple-red"; consequently, the Phoenicians were known as "red men." Even today residents of Phoenix, Arizona, are known as Phoenicians. The flag of the city is a stylized white phoenix on a purple background.

In a tome called Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, 33rd-degree Mason Albert Pike states that the phoenix was a quintessential alchemical icon. In this regard J. E. Cirlot's Dictionary of Symbols remarks: "In alchemy, [the phoenix] corresponds to the colour red, to the regeneration of universal life and to the successful completion of a process." A few Arizona prospectors may indeed have been seeking spiritual gold as well.

Is it more than mere coincidence, then, that the phoenix, whose center of worship was the Pre-Dynastic City of the Sun, should lend its name to what would become the largest city in the Valley of the Sun? Is the name something more than the whim of some erudite inebriate misplaced in the hinterlands of America?

Aztlan is furthermore conceptualized as an island. Some speculate that the name even refers to the legendary continent of Atlantis. According to comparative linguistics scholar Gene D. Matlock, the Aztlán of Nahuatl mythology was really called Aztatlán, referring to the village of Nayarit on Mexico's western coast. The Sanskrit word Asta apparently means "Place of the Setting Sun." Matlock suggests that this could actually be the westernmost boundary of what was once Atlantis.

Did Lord Duppa and Judge Alsap consciously try to merge Egyptian and Mesoamerican mythologies in the wilds of Arizona? Alsap's Bachelor of Law and Doctor of Medicine degrees prove that he was no dummy himself. Was the establishment of Aztlan (Masonic Lodge No. 1) and Phoenix (Masonic Lodge No. 2) an attempt to symbolically merge Prescott (the heron) and Phoenix (the Bennu) in the same way they would soon actually be linked by stagecoach? Was it a clandestine Masonic intent that a new Atlantis (Aztlan) should rise in Arizona and a new Heliopolis (Phoenix) should be its heart?

Whose Story?

Other questions about the initial territorial capital come to mind. Why was Prescott named to honor the prominent 19th century historian William Hickling Prescott, who never set foot in the town? Were the run-of-the-mill settlers really all that interested in his book History of the Conquest of Mexico? According to its author, "The inhabitants, members of different tribes, and speaking dialects somewhat different, belonged to the same great family of nations who had come from the real or imaginary region of Aztlan, in the far north-west." In other words, the Arizona Territory. Is this why two major thoroughfares in the town of Prescott are named Cortez Street and Montezuma Street?

Why did the territorial capital suddenly shift in 1889 from Prescott to Phoenix? The mercantile owner, postmaster, and territorial representative John Y. T. Smith greatly influenced this movement. He too was another "pioneer Mason" of Phoenix. After governmental authority had finally rested with the southern city, spiritual symbolism superseded natural potency. Did secret powers dictate that the phoenix instead of the heron should arise?

Whatever the reason, Columbus H. Gray, who served as a territorial senator and member of Maricopa County's Board of Supervisors, began during Phoenix's early years to construct a Masonic hall at the corner of Jefferson and First Streets. Before it was completed, he sold it to Mike Goldwater, grandfather of Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater, himself a 33rd-degree Mason. Incidentally, both Phoenix and Tempe are located at 33 degrees north latitude. Even stranger is the fact that another Tempe, the name of a suburb of Sidney, Australia, is located at 33 degrees south latitude.

By 1890 a number of the fraternal organizations were operating in the city: Masons, Odd Fellows, Knights of Pythias, Ancient Order of United Workmen, Grand Army of the Republic, Chosen Friends and Good Templars.

Darell Duppa spent his last days in the Valley of the Sun and crossed the bar in 1892. He is buried in the Masonic section of Pioneer and Memorial Park in Phoenix.

Further evidence of Duppa's Masonic association comes from one source that connects him to Jacob Waltz, the famous Lost Dutchman, by identifying both men as Masons. This German prospector supposedly discovered a fabulous gold mine in the Superstition Mountains east of Phoenix. As with many lost treasures of the Wild West, its location remains a mystery. Waltz is buried in the same Phoenix cemetery. In addition, Columbus Gray (mentioned above) is also interred there.

One more relevant Phoenix character was laid to rest in the Pioneer and Military Memorial Park. Benjamin Joseph Franklin was the great-grandson of the famous founding father and Mason. He served as Arizona territorial governor for a little over a year shortly before his death in 1898.

Masonic influence in Phoenix continued well into the twentieth century. Arizona's first governor, George Wiley Paul Hunt, served seven terms between 1912 (the year of statehood) and 1932. He was also a prominent and longstanding Freemason. As a populist and supporter of trade unions, he spoke and wrote in a simple and sometimes prominent and longstanding Freemason. As a populist and supporter of trade unions, he spoke and wrote in a simple and sometimes grammatically incorrect style. Nonetheless, like Duppa, he loved classical literature, which gained him the moniker "Old Roman." A man of contradictions, Hunt had also been known to address Theosophical Society meetings.

His final resting place in Phoenix's Papago Park is within sight of an archaeo-astronomical observatory once used by the Hohokam but now called Hole-in-the-Rock. Oddly enough, Hunt's family mausoleum was an Egyptian-style pyramid finished with white tile to mimic the Tura limestone that once made the Giza pyramids gleam for miles in the desert sunlight.

http://theorionzone.com/eye_phoenix.htm

Thanks for your interest in my work.

Gary A. David


Thank you Gary,

Ellie B

 

[sgtfda]

2 genuine Jacob Waltz signature's

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Elle,a top post, but may I interject a slight possibility of a change. It was posted ==>" Matlock suggests that this could actually be the westernmost boundary of what was once Atlantis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually this is the west coast of Spain, the shallows. This was all that remained of Atlantis, with the possible exception of the Azores, the place of the reeds, the Herons, the white sands, etc.. Later was currupted over time to Aztatlan.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Ellie Baba]

G'd morning Elle,a top post, but may I interject a slight possibility of a change. It was posted ==>" Matlock suggests that this could actually be the westernmost boundary of what was once Atlantis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Actually this is the west coast of Spain, the shallows. This was all that remained of Atlantis, with the possible exception of the Azores, the place of the reeds, the Herons, the white sands, etc.. Later was currupted over time to Aztatlan.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hi there Don Jose,

I agree with you that an exact location has not yet been decided. However, the Great White (Blue) Heron and Great White Egret are in the same genus (Ardea).

These great birds were attracted to the Phoenix (Hohokam) area by the hundreds of thousands as a result of the large extensive canal system. Many carved heron figurines were located in and around many of the villages including the "big House" at Casa Grande.

History is so awesome!

Ellie B

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

I have long believed that Aztlan was in southwestern New Mexico. Located in the middle of an ancient lake, now dry desert. Perhaps it's now a military base.....off limits to outsiders. They left New Mexico following the Gila River west. At some point they turned south into Mexico.

They left in separate migrations stopping along the way and growing crops and storing supplies for those who came behind them. There is ample evidence for that scenario.

Chicomoztoc was an island in the middle of an inland sea or great lake. As the area turned into a desert the waters receded. Seeing what was taking place, the Aztec left the place of the seven caves and went in search of a new place. That place was where Tenochtitlan/Mexico City was founded. In a great lake, it reminded them of their old home.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

Hi there Don Jose,

I agree with you that an exact location has not yet been decided. However, the Great White (Blue) Heron and Great White Egret are in the same genus (Ardea).

These great birds were attracted to the Phoenix (Hohokam) area by the hundreds of thousands as a result of the large extensive canal system. Many carved heron figurines were located in and around many of the villages including the "big House" at Casa Grande.

History is so awesome!

Ellie B

There is at least one other old symbol that was found at Casa Grande, which according to historians is out of place and time. Ellie B, history makes life tolerable. Learning it, and if your lucky enough, making it.

 

[Ellie Baba]

Hal stated;

There is at least one other old symbol that was found at Casa Grande, which according to historians is out of place and time. Ellie B, history makes life tolerable. Learning it, and if your lucky enough, making it.;

I too must admit that I do not know everything...but I want to. Curiosity is a powerful motivator and that keeps me pressing forward; which symbol are you referring to?

I'll share one with all of you:

Passage Par Terre A La Californie 1702, Kino Map

French phrase found on upper right hand area beneath Casa Grande left of San Fernando (named by Bernal) at Gila and San Pedro River confluence.
ou de la filasse (French) = or of the oakum = old tar rope (ships rigging recycled by hand to caulk wooden ships.)

Why did Father Kino place this phrase on his map?

Sorry to get off of thread topic. No mas.

Ellie B

Hey Joe,

I think you are very close.

 

[Somero]

Wow talk about going into left field.................did a double take to make sure I was on the right topic

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal stated;

There is at least one other old symbol that was found at Casa Grande, which according to historians is out of place and time. Ellie B, history makes life tolerable. Learning it, and if your lucky enough, making it.;

I too must admit that I do not know everything...but I want to. Curiosity is a powerful motivator and that keeps me pressing forward; which symbol are you referring to?

I'll share one with all of you:

Passage Par Terre A La Californie 1702, Kino Map

French phrase found on upper right hand area beneath Casa Grande left of San Fernando (named by Bernal) at Gila and San Pedro River confluence.
ou de la filasse (French) = or of the oakum = old tar rope (ships rigging recycled by hand to caulk wooden ships.)

Why did Father Kino place this phrase on his map?

Sorry to get off of thread topic. No mas.

Ellie B

Hey Joe,

I think you are very close.

Page 48.
Read about this symbol and how it attracted Masonic pilgrims to Casa Grande in numbers. Hayden gives a logical explanation for the symbol which for Masons was something of an embarrassment. But after you read it, think about Hayden's explanation which is correct, Next, ask yourself about the bird and what it represents. This is where I think Hayden missed the point. Masonic symbolism embedded into the design of the bird. Unless archetypes do develop universally without exchange or contact which, I find difficult believe.

http://books.google.com/books?id=RX...page&q=Casa Grande az masonic symbols&f=false