Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[chlsbrns]

Section 16
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...lat\AZ\14\0020N0050E\AZ140020N0050E00013.SID#

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[chlsbrns]

Did anyone know that Waltz left AZ for Kansas & got a 160 acre homestead in KS in 1883?

Or that he left KS for Nebraska & got a homestead there in 1890?

Or that he never had a legal homestead in AZ?

Being that Waltz was a publisher maybe it was him that started the hoax?

 

[Somero]

Section 16
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...lat\AZ\14\0020N0050E\AZ140020N0050E00013.SID#

Section 16 Township 2 approved date March 29 1913 State of Arizona filed September 30 1924 Arizona canal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Canal

What does this have to do with Section 16 Township 1 in 1890

 

[Somero]

Did anyone know that Waltz left AZ for Kansas & got a 160 acre homestead in KS in 1883?

Or that he left KS for Nebraska & got a homestead there in 1890?

Or that he never had a legal homestead in AZ?

Being that Waltz was a publisher maybe it was him that started the hoax?

Somebody is fishing under the bridge

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I wonder at some of these posts...perhaps the state of Arizona will return my money ...sure didn't learn any of these special tidbits of information at the university

 

[Somero]

I know they are Wikipedia links but they may help in understanding sections

Section (United States land surveying) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Survey township - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hal Croves]

I like this post.
It is like peering into a dark cave with a match and in the distance seeing something curiously shining back but just ever so faintly. Is it a stack of gold bars or the crumpled remains of a Miller tall boy?

While your scrutinizing documents perhaps you could have a look at the one Blair found which was misfiled. I would like your opinion.

I had to pass over a bridge everyday on my way to reform school and I know that it had a troll living under it. He seemed a decent enough chap and knew all the best campfire songs.

Seriously, are you a troll?

 

[Somero]

Link to Phoenix 1914 map http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/arizona/pclmaps-topo-az-phoenix-1914.jpg

The original township runs from the Baseline (Baseline rd.) East edge of map section 36 West to section 31 then North to section 6 then East to section 1

Each section would be 640 acres (1 square mile) and consists of 4 160 acre parcels which could then be divided further.

So the property listed in the agreement was the North East section adjoining section 9 to the North and section 15 to the East.

If I have time I'll see if I can cypher out what sections Starar divided and sold off.

 

[Hal Croves]

Cubfan64,
I am still looking... I did find part of the story or a related story anyway. Just the address and I am not even sure it is the same.

Anyone know who owned (the history of ownership) the property and old adobe home at Fifth avenue and Monroe st?

 

[Ellie Baba]

Good information;

ASLD History http://www.azland.gov/history.htm

Methods of Land Acquisition

Arizona has acquired lands in four types of transactions.
School Sections in Place

As land surveys were completed by the Federal government, title to four school sections in each township - Sections 2, 16, 32, and 36 - automatically passed to the State.

Indemnity in Lieu Selections

When school section lands were not available to the State because they had been previously claimed by homesteaders or miners or because they fell within a Federal reservation or a national forest, park, or Indian reservation, the State was given the right to select an equal acreage of Federal public domain land as indemnity in lieu of the school sections the State should have received.


See link for more detail,

Ellie B

 

[Hal Croves]

Not only do The multitude of "stories" take you all over the place the few facts take you all over the place. That's my fault?

Twice you have asked for proof of waltz being a theif & twice I've told you where to look. Have you looked? Obviously not based on your last post.

I showed directory pages with numerous people including waltz in the directory but you choose to ignore the directory because I did not provide the details of the directory for you to look for yourself. If I had the info would you look it up? Or do as you have done with the waltz being a theif info aka not look it up & keep throwing it in my face? Do you think I would waste my time making a phony directory?

Did you look at the deeds to see Walt's property sold off before his alleged death?

Somehow you think I should provide everything to you on a silver platter? You promised to provide numerous facts have you? Have I thrown it in your face….. The fact that you haven't? No!

As far as starar & waltz being one in the same... Did you look? Did you even try to figure it out? Did you look up starars place e of birth? Did you do anything or just call it my theory?

Do some research on the starar brothers. Not so much in c!aims made by authors of books but real research. The ldm books are the reason for so much confusion. Which book would you believe?

Amazon.com: lost dutchman: Books

If you choose to not look... You should not criticize!

Arizona republican. (Phoenix, Ariz.) 1890-1930, February 21, 1891, Image 1 « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

The list of damage is extensive. No mention of a Waltz or his place, but here you can see that Duppa was with the Starars during the flood. Also a good description of what happened to the adobe homes that came in contact with h2o. A few Chinese rescued from trees but so far, no Dutchman. I am still scanning the post flood articles.

View attachment 921887

http://caplter.asu.edu/docs/symposia/symp2000/Honker2000/honker flood history.pdf
​

THE FLOOD OF 1891
A disastrous flood stuck Phoenix and the surrounding communities in February 1891. Early in the morning on 18 February, the Salt River was a foot and a half over the wooden Arizona Diversion Damóa structure about 2.5 miles upstream from the current Granite Reef Dam designed to divert water into the Arizona Canal. Several hours later, it was over five feet above the dam, which itself was fourteen feet high. By the next morning, water was surging some eighteen feet
over where the dam had been and the width of the river downstream in the vicinity of Phoenix had grown to some three miles wide. The water almost reached Madison Street and Montezuma (today's First Street). Neat the Salt's confluence with the Verde River, the river stretched to nearly eight miles in width. High water continued for most of the day on 19 February, slowly receded, and then rose again on 24 February, when the flow in the channel reached nearly 300,000
cubic feet per second (cfs), the highest flow in recorded history.

All across the valley, floodwaters damaged canals and flooded agricultural fields. The only bridge across the Saltóthe railroad bridgeó was a mass of tangled wreckage. Phoenix was without rail service for three months. Adobe houses suffered particularly extensive damage from the flood, especially a neighborhood occupied by part of the Mexican population, where chicken coops, outhouses, and homes were destroyed. Across the valley, estimates were that floodwaters
washed away fifty adobe structures. One newspaper described the scene: "above the roar of the waters was the dull crashing of adobe houses as they tumbled in rapid succession, as fast as the undermining current could get to them." (Phoenix Gazette
, 20 February 1891) Remarkably, the flood killed no one.

View attachment 921898
​

After the water had receded, valley newspapers set about looking for the silver lining in all of the hardship that the flood had brought. The editors of the Arizona Republican commented: "Phoenix, as a city, was benefited. A few dwellings of value were destroyed in the lower portion of the city, but nearly all the buildings wrecked were miserable adobes that have rendered the city unsightly for a number of years. Many owners are rebuilding, but it is to be remarked that the new buildings are of a far better class, constructed of either brick or wood." Arizona Republican, 5 March 1891) Another observer remarked: "the great valley proper, filled with its orchards and vineyards, gratin and alfalfa fields, received the blessing of a magnificent rain. While
the few lost their hundreds, the great valley is richer by its hundreds of thousands of dollars." (Phoenix Daily Herald, 9 April 1891) One valley newspaper, concerned over the negative image that reports of the flood might bring the Phoenix area, even went as far as to criticize the coverage of a fellow paper. In an editorial titled "A Newspaper's Duty," the owners of the Arizona Daily Gazette stated the following: "The Republican article on what it termed the "flood" was a piece of vandalism and void of truth or decency, and would, if permitted to go uncontradicted, do this valley . . . injury." (Arizona Daily Gazette, 22 February 1891) It seems that at least some valley residents were more concerned over getting back to the task of promoting the area and bringing in new settlers than worrying about the recent flood.

 

[Cubfan64]

Good information;

ASLD History ASLD History

Methods of Land Acquisition

Arizona has acquired lands in four types of transactions.
School Sections in Place

As land surveys were completed by the Federal government, title to four school sections in each township - Sections 2, 16, 32, and 36 - automatically passed to the State.

Indemnity in Lieu Selections

When school section lands were not available to the State because they had been previously claimed by homesteaders or miners or because they fell within a Federal reservation or a national forest, park, or Indian reservation, the State was given the right to select an equal acreage of Federal public domain land as indemnity in lieu of the school sections the State should have received.


See link for more detail,

Ellie B

The issue of "school land" greatly begins muddying up the water when it comes to the discussion surrounding Waltz's land and what may or may not have happened pursuant to the agreement with Andrew Starar. If I knew more about it I would comment, but as confused as I am with the property information back in the 1800's, it gets even worse when I try to figure out how the "school land" works.

Hal - I seem to recall seeing the newspaper account at one time, but I can't find it right now. That said, if you can get access to the Phoenix Daily Herald from Feb. 20, 1891, Robert Blair claims that in at least one of the reports mentions the adobes of Jake Walts (sic) and "butcher Grijalba" and two "Mexican houses back of the Starrs."

I don't believe the Phoenix Daily Herald is scanned online anywhere, but I'm sure either getting someone from the Phoenix area to find it, scan and post it would work - or interlibrary loan could probably get a copy of that section on microfiche.

 

[chlsbrns]

Waltz never owned a homestead in AZ. He must have been squating in Arizona. In 1890 Waltz was on his legal homestead in Nebraska.

 

[Somero]

 

[Somero]

Actually the school land is not a significant issue, when Arizona became a state they just acquired a different section to use to generate funding for schools. I think we can safely remove that from the table. The land in question was not used to build a school at the location but for the state to generate funding to provide the school system, if I read it correctly.

 

[sgtfda]

I believe the state trust land is used for the same thing today

 

[cactusjumper]

Actually the school land is not a significant issue, when Arizona became a state they just acquired a different section to use to generate funding for schools. I think we can safely remove that from the table. The land in question was not used to build a school at the location but for the state to generate funding to provide the school system, if I read it correctly.

Eric,

Do you know what kind of income the state received from Jacob Waltz for living on the school land?

Happy New Year!

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Actually the school land is not a significant issue, when Arizona became a state they just acquired a different section to use to generate funding for schools. I think we can safely remove that from the table. The land in question was not used to build a school at the location but for the state to generate funding to provide the school system, if I read it correctly.

I know I'm going to regret this because I'm not well versed in all this, but here goes anyways...

As I understand it, Waltz settled on Section 16 which was set aside as "school land" by the Federal Government - being "school land," he was not allowed to file on it as a homestead. He therefore never really owned that land but for all intents and purposed he was sort of "squatting" on it although he still had to pay taxes on it which he did. This seems odd to me because one would think since you have to pay taxes on the land, why not pick a plot and homestead it so you would now have 160 acres in your name, owned by you which you could do with what you want?

Dr. Glover mentions 2 possible reasons why Waltz may have settled on school land, but we'll likely never know the real answer. Reason #1 is that possibly Waltz did not have the money for the filing fee. Reason #2 is that possibly Waltz just got unlucky in that he arrived and settled on land prior to the land survey that eventually made his area Section 16 school land so he couldn't file on it.

Here's where I get sort of confused...

After Waltz makes his agreement with Andrew Starar and Andrew passes away in 1883, how did all the different portions of Section 16 eventually get sold off? Isn't all of Section 16 already Federal or State property or does the designation of "school land" not have anything to do with the Federal Government owning that land?

For me it comes down to what exactly school land means? For example, who exactly held the title to the land on Section 16 when Waltz was there? If Waltz could turn it over to Andrew and Jacob Starar could later sell it off little by little, it appears to me that neither the State or Federal government held the title to that land correct?

I really need to get a copy of the talk that Dr. Glover did at the Rendezvous in 2009 regarding school land and how all this really works!

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Good post, IMHO.

Pretty much what I have been thinking for some time now. That's reflected in some of my posts on this subject. Don't believe Waltz ever had legal ownership on the land.

Happy New Year!

Joe

 

[Somero]

O.K. been digging through BLM Records and have some links for you all.

As far as I can find Waltz did not file for a land patent, Starar brothers did have section 8 S.E. quarter (160 acres) and section 9 S.W. quarter (160 acres) Essentially they were across the street from each other. Offhand note the Lower Road from Wickenburg to Fort McDowell was just to the Northeast of their property.

Survey Details - BLM GLO Records

Patent Details - BLM GLO Records

Patent Details - BLM GLO Records

CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

Patents issued April 10 1874

As for Section 16 Township 1 Range 3 Seems the State did not take possession from the Federal Government and I have found no patents issued to any individuals regarding the property in question. May have been some "misguided" land sales going on, not a surprise.

CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

Search Results - BLM GLO Records

Seems the state gave up some section 16's and eventually got them back from the Federal Government.



To view the documents there is a Basic Viewer button on the bottom left of the window. no plugin needed

These are actual recorded documents, not just random thoughts and cut and paste.