Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

Garry

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Paul,

This is my ā€œtakeā€. I donā€™t like to use the word ā€œtitle toā€ but the U. S. Government had the original claim to all of the land in Arizona. (Treaties with Mexico)

They later passed various laws to distribute portions of that land but they still retain the claim to large sections. When Arizona gained Territorial status they remained under the purview of the Federal Government.

As far as ā€œSchool Trust Landsā€: When the U.S. began appropriating money for surveys that would allow certain areas to be opened for homestead or purchase by the public they original set aside Section 16 (Late 1700ā€™s) in those surveys as School Lands. In 1850, Section 36 was added. In our timeframe in Arizona Territory, both Section 16 and Section 36 were set aside and not opened for homestead. These sections remained under the purview of the Federal government. People went ahead and established claim to the school lands and also lands not surveyed, by ā€œpossessory rightsā€ [Squatting - Slang]. These claims do carry legal weight. They built improvements and tilled the land, ran cattle, etc. Also one squatter could pass along continuous possession to another squatter, known as "tacking".

When Arizona was granted statehood in 1912, the ā€œSchool Landsā€ were included in the land transfers and the state became the custodians. This created a real stink for the people who claimed the land by possessory rights. It started a lot of legal and political maneuvering to establish exactly how these rights were to be handled and it continued for years. I believe there were some other land concessions granted by the federal government to Arizona to settle some of these issues.

Maybe a simple example will serve to illustrate the process. Most were far more complicated!

Jacob Starrar had also established possessory rights to some School Land in Section 16, West of Waltzā€™s land. Whether he was the original claimant is not known. (At least I donā€™t know)

On August 17, 1882, Jacob Starrar sold the north half (80 acres) of the NW 1/4 Section 16 T1N R3E to A. L. Henshaw for $750(Deed Book 8 Page 182)

Henshaw would continue to claim the land for about 36 years before he was able to establish a legal title to the land (March 4, 1919) (Book 9, Page 378)

You will have to view the plat map referenced in the document and locate Tract #5 to verify yourself that this is the original land that Henshaw received from Starrar. I have not digested this instrument, but it kind of looks like Henshaw was getting the shaft!

I hope I have not strayed too far away from the facts but Iā€™m sure there are some errors. Maybe it will prove somewhat useful for anyone trying to sort things out.

I am also still trying to sort out a lot of the details!:BangHead:

Iā€™m always open for ā€œsourced correctionsā€. :)

Garry
 

Somero

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One other point, as I stated earlier Arizona relinquished the section in question when granted statehood, something to do with SRP I believe. So any squatters would not gain a land title but could stay on the property.........would they be required to pay property tax or some form of land lease fee?
 

Ellie Baba

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Hope this helps,

I will not try to explain as this document speaks for itself. Deed w/ State Trust Land


0001.png 0002.png 0003.png

Ellie B
 

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Cubfan64

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Hope this helps,

I will not try to explain as this document speaks for itself. Deed w/ State Trust Land


View attachment 922472 View attachment 922473 View attachment 922474

Ellie B

Thanks Ellie, unfortunately I first have to try to read the thing, then interpret of all the legal mumbo jumbo and then make sense of it in it's context - told you I'd be no good at this :)

I really don't want to get too bogged down in the whole "school land" thing unless someone thinks it really lends itself to the thread, so if most folks can easily make sense of it be following Garry, Somero and Ellie's posts, that's good enough for me - I'll figure it all out one of these days.
 

chlsbrns

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Who would have thought that smero would verify what ive posted numerous times? (That Waltz didnt have a legal homestead in AZ)

Thanks smero!

Now can I expect that a deed to a legal homestead dated 1890 in Nebraska will be shown? I did post the Waltz moved to Nebraska & that he had a homestead there in 1890. Strange that his signature is so much the same on the Nebraska deed & his agreement with A Starar.

Wasnt it smero that implied numerous times that i was a troll after posting the two facts? (No homestead in AZ & 1890 homestead in NE)

???

.
 

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cw0909

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thank you for the condolences, off the MI. tommorow, back home fri., off to W.va
sun. back home tues, then back to MI. fri. to help close down the place, he lived
in a rental, so all goes to storage until.....


Garry said:
On August 17, 1882, Jacob Starrar sold the north half (80 acres) of the NW 1/4 Section 16 T1N R3E to A. L. Henshaw for $750(Deed Book 8 Page 182)


Henshaw would continue to claim the land for about 36 years before he was able to establish a legal title to the land (March 4, 1919) (Book 9, Page 378)

Garry, wonderful, i think, like i said in a earlier post, that JW was hustling AS, why who knows
and you would have thought AS would have checked out the legality of the transaction


this is all just my opinion/speculation, maybe that "tacking" was part of a scam too
so maybe all that gold supposedly JW had was a scam of some sort too, but could be JW did
have a G mine, just not an actual mine, im betting if someone would go through all the old
microfiche, from NPs and such, they prob could find more on JW hustle/s, he had to have more
than one like pos selling mineing claims that he didnt own, and if JW was just a hustler, im betting
a lot of the transactions was made in gold payment, hence everyone thinking JW had a rich
gold mine, and evidently JW, was good at a hustle he got over on AS, as far as we know
 

cw0909

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all just my opinion, could be the school lands was perfect for a hustle
some info on the school lands
The plan for numbering sections of a township was adopted in the Land Ordinance of 1785. Section 16 of each township was reserved for "maintenance of public schools within said township."
School Lands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.nps.gov/jeff/historyculture/upload/homestead.pdf
maps
then the land was a fairground in 1902
fair.jpg


found it here someplace,sorry lost the map pg link
Irrigation System of the Arizona Improvement Co. :: Sharlot Hall Museum Map Collection
 

cw0909

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just speculation
hmmm, wonder if john t alsap (from ellie b, posted docs) was in on a hustle, or 2 he had connections


John Tabor Alsap (February 26 or 28, 1830[Note 1] ā€“ September 10, 1886) was an American physician, lawyer, politician, and farmer active in the early days of Arizona Territory. Among his accomplishments are being appointed the first Treasurer of Arizona Territory, being elected to four terms of the territorial legislature, serving as both Speaker of the House and President of the Council in the Arizona Territorial legislature, and becoming the first Mayor of Phoenix
John T. Alsap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
his land
Search Results - BLM GLO Records
 

cw0909

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chlsbrns, if i remember correctly, in 1880, there were 40 jacob waltz on the census
for several states, that would need a lot more researching, to see if the JW we are
discussing is the same one for neb.
 

chlsbrns

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chlsbrns, if i remember correctly, in 1880, there were 40 jacob waltz on the census
for several states, that would need a lot more researching, to see if the JW we are
discussing is the same one for neb.

CW: Compare signatures with the 1890 Nebraska deed.
 

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Somero

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Some Speculation

Digging further into the BLM records.

Section 16 and section 36 were not eligible for title release as they were set aside and held by the DOI, however individuals may have homesteaded legally on these sections but were unable to obtain title. They did however have legal rights to the property if they had improved it according to the homesteading guidelines. At such time as the territory became a state the new state could release a title to the property.

Unfortunately Jacob Waltz was not able to obtain title to his homestead and the property was still considered his, eventually the state could release the property. So any legal documents with the county recorder would be able to track any sales of the property and any divisions made to it so when Arizona became a state owners of the property on section 16 township 1 range 3 could file for ownership.

Shows sections 16 and 36 as exempt
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...69&imageFile=AZ-AZ\\AZ140010N0030E0-2001.JP2#


Plat of township 1 range 3
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...=869&imageFile=AZ-AZ\AZ140010N0030E0-1000.JP2

The water gets a bit muddy now January 10 1879 the land was listed to be given to the Pima and Maricopaā€™s

List of sections
CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

Page 1
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=002\320\002320608.JP2

June 14 1879
CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

Page 1
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=002\320\002320609.JP2

Page 2
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=002\320\002320610.JP2

Further complications with section 16 came when Arizona became a state and the Federal Government held this section for Reclamation intent, so any possibility of getting a land title would probably involve a court battle.

Arizona requesting title to property, apparently they may have inadvertently sold it and needed to gain title from the DOI June 4 1936
CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

Page 1
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=000\003\000003365.JP2

page 2
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=000\003\000003366.JP2

Page 3
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=000\003\000003367.JP2

Patent issue June 21 1963
CDI Details - BLM GLO Records

Page 1
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=000\123\000123111.JP2

Page 2
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/detai...werHeight=869&imageFile=000\123\000123112.JP2

Since Waltz did have legal right to the property (IMO possession is 9 tenths the law and homesteading is based on this idea) he did sign it over to Starar in the agreement, so not really a shady deal but more of a gamble that the land could be titled through the state eventually, sadly for anyone who bought the property it went into the reclamation clause.

Perhaps others may interpret the information differently, but keep in mind squatters rights were a bit different in the territory and a legal case could be made in favor of the squatter, if they did not get run off. Waltz was listed as a Farmer on the census and had built a home and maintained the property as a farm so he did follow the homestead rules.

Hope this helps and sorry to repeat myself, but I think it does provide insight into the agreement when you look at it with some common sense that an old man with no children would at least try to get something out of his homestead and the Stararā€™s may have had a better understanding of land agreements than Waltz, so he let them deal with it.
 

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Somero

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Eric,

Do you know what kind of income the state received from Jacob Waltz for living on the school land?

Happy New Year!

Joe

Trick question :laughing7: Not sure if he would be paying the county or Federal government since they controlled the land in the Territory.
Not sure if I want to dig into the financials of the whole mess :tongue3: If it were today I think he would be leasing the land from the state.
 

Somero

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Wasnt it smero that implied numerous times that i was a troll after posting the two facts? (No homestead in AZ & 1890 homestead in NE)

???

.

I don't think there is a smero on the site, but if you are referring to me in a childish manner, I have not seen any "facts" you have posted that can be verified (I don't always pay attention to your desperate attempts, but since this seems directed at me I'll respond). The BLM link you posted was not even in the right area, that just shows you are randomly grabbing information without any type of follow up and you do not know how to read a plat map, which shows your research is completely flawed. As for Nebraska, use it to learn how to research documents properly and perhaps you might make your case. Again your theory you research it and show proper documents instead of random bits and pieces that can"t be proven in any context. Good Luck

If you have trouble spelling Somero you can either cut and paste (you seem good at that) or my name is in the signature below and only has 4 letters which may be easier for you to spell or just cut and paste that also. "See Spot Run........Run Spot Run." even a preschooler can spell a 4 letter word. What does chrlsbrns mean anyway?
 

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Cubfan64

Cubfan64

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I don't think there is a smero on the site, but if you are referring to me in a childish manner, I have not seen any "facts" you have posted that can be verified (I don't always pay attention to your desperate attempts, but since this seems directed at me I'll respond). The BLM link you posted was not even in the right area, that just shows you are randomly grabbing information without any type of follow up and you do not know how to read a plat map, which shows your research is completely flawed. As for Nebraska, use it to learn how to research documents properly and perhaps you might make your case. Again your theory you research it and show proper documents instead of random bits and pieces that can"t be proven in any context. Good Luck

If you have trouble spelling Somero you can either cut and paste (you seem good at that) or my name is in the signature below and only has 4 letters which may be easier for you to spell or just cut and paste that also. "See Spot Run........Run Spot Run." even a preschooler can spell a 4 letter word. What does chrlsbrns mean anyway?

Oh goodness, now Waltz was in Nebraska in 1890?? Let me guess, nothing to back that up other than a census or BLM record right? Wonder how many Jacob Waltz's were floating around the country at that time, in fact why stop with the United States, Waltz could have traveled anywhere on the globe :). The ignore button works wonders - until someone quotes him/her :P.

Interesting take on the "school land" issue - it's slowly making more sense to me, but I find it exhausting to read through all that stuff and make sense of it - thanks for the help though.
 

Hal Croves

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just speculation
hmmm, wonder if john t alsap (from ellie b, posted docs) was in on a hustle, or 2 he had connections


John Tabor Alsap (February 26 or 28, 1830[Note 1] ā€“ September 10, 1886) was an American physician, lawyer, politician, and farmer active in the early days of Arizona Territory. Among his accomplishments are being appointed the first Treasurer of Arizona Territory, being elected to four terms of the territorial legislature, serving as both Speaker of the House and President of the Council in the Arizona Territorial legislature, and becoming the first Mayor of Phoenix
John T. Alsap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
his land
Search Results - BLM GLO Records[/QUOTE

One would expect to find John T's signature on a document like this. I don't know that guilt by association is fair.

But you are correct, many people seem to have been running from their past. Like Whickenburg who I read was wanted by German officials for fraud.
 

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Hal Croves

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When you do share that Nebraska thing, please post a still from the video so everyone can compare independently. If the hand writing is the same it should be obvious to those willing to listen.

It is not difficult to imagine these people wandering around without explanation. I just found Duppa in a hotel in LA in the late 80's. Seems Duppa traveled a bit.
 

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Ellie Baba

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When you do share that Nebraska thing, please post a still from the video so everyone can compare independently. If the hand writing is the same it should be obvious to those willing to listen.

It is not difficult to imagine these people wandering around without explanation. I just found Duppa in a hotel in LA in the late 80's. Seems Duppa traveled a bit.

Hal, and All,

As mentioned earlier the signatures in the books were sometimes those of the recorder next to the hand-drawn seals. The Recorders' job was to document that the person(s) before him were in fact the individual(s) present. Recording documents this day and age require a Notary Stamp and notary signature next to the actual signature of the person attesting his identity by presenting the required documents confirming his or her identity. The Recorders Office no longer establishes this fact.

and,

Explanation is easy: They are Freemasons and that is not so difficult to imagine. Trying to discern what they are up to is the difficult part. However, that is a horse of another color. You can lead it to water, but you cannot force it to drink (think); leaving tidbits and clues goes right over its' head.

You are a good researcher IMHO, keep doing what you do best!

Ellie B
 

chlsbrns

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Hal I doubt that i will post it. A census or blm record or a lame comment is enough proof for anything that some others post but its not proof if i post a blm record or census. They would ignore it even if the signatures were identical. Like my sig below says!

I flew to AZ recently to verify that a vein existed on private property. The property owners are not miners & have offered us the opportunity to mine the vein royalty free. We are considering it but what would we do with our chickens & egg customers?
 

Hal Croves

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Encourage them to switch to duck or enlist them to help dig out that vein... the customers, and if they are smart enough, the chickens. I hear they work for feed. :icon_jokercolor:

If you have proof, it most certainly will not be ignored.


"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's ass by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?"

Tommy
 

Somero

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If you have proof, it most certainly will not be ignored.


"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's ass by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?"

Tommy

Hal

Big difference between sticking your head somewhere and looking at documents...............just my opinion, but if some would rather research another way I guess that is their business, just hope they use a flashlight. Remember; if it looks and smells like :censored: must be :censored:

Looking forward to Nebraska........................
 

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