Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[cw0909]

who owned/owns jacob wally / Jacob Waltz land part # 2

part # 2
who owned, the north east quarter of
section sixteen (16) in in township one (1) north
of Range three (3) east of the Gila and salt River
meridian
hope i did it right , someone may want to double check me
if you dont want to do the steps/links see link below
the pdf of CDI image
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ConvertedImages/CDI_1270.PDF


how i got there
search criteria is
state AZ, / county Maricopa, / Township 1 N, / Range 3 E, / section 16, / Meridian Gila-Salt River
home pg search takes you here
Search Results - BLM GLO Records


open this # in new tab/window
AZAR 0032345
map of

Patent Details - BLM GLO Records


click the Related Documents, choose from the drop down window
(Below are documents matching the following land description from the current document)
choose
AZ Gila-Salt River Township 1.0N Range 3.0E Section 16
click on CDI, you will see a list of names and dates of Patents & orders,
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records


open the 5th down ,Executive order, in new tab/window
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records
open CDI image pg 1 of 2
CDI Details - BLM GLO Records


the pdf of CDI image
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ConvertedImages/CDI_1270.PDF
home search pg
Search - BLM GLO Records

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[chlsbrns]

Still hoping to get additional information from chlsbrns regarding Andrew's return to California and all the specifics on the California public records and documents that can help flesh out the Starar's lives.

In the meantime, Greg Davis was kind enough to send me copies of the Arizona obituaries and death related information for both Jacob and Andrew Starar while I was away for Christmas. Sorry I was unable to provide that documentation until now.

The following are the newspaper reports indicating that Andrew Starar (Starr) passed away in Phoenix on June 2, 1883 and his funeral was on June 6. There is also a newspaper report of the passing of Jacob Starar (Starr) on March 21, 1893 which was ruled a suicide by strychnine poisoning.

If one or both of the brothers did return to California, it appears that returned back to Arizona again prior to their deaths.

View attachment 919082

View attachment 919084

View attachment 919086

View attachment 919089

View attachment 919090

The Starar ranch wasn't "a few miles east of town"

"the funeral yesterday morning" Dated June 4

"his funeral will take place on Sunday" Dated June 7

"born in Rochester, NY"

You can also see where numerous clones and/or pastes on the images. The text is not of the time period. Totally bogus!

To those who think that people who post facts are Trolls: Go search for dead cast iron skillets killed by angry indians. As far as I've seen you contribute nothing!

 

[Garry]

Many thanks to Greg for sharing the information on the deaths of the Starrar Brothers. I had a tentative date for the death of Andrew of 1 Jun 1883 but I had no source. Larry Hannah has been unable to locate a probate for Andrew Starrar and I was beginning to question whether this was when he actually died. This certainly puts everything back on track.

It also continues to raise questions.

There was a rather strange deed where Andrew Starrar sold his interest in the eastern extension of the Location Claim (Quaherty Mining District) to Jacob Starrar for $1000 (Deed Book 9 Page 323) (Maricopa County)

The indenture was made on May 28, 1883. Andrew died 4 days later on June 2, 1883. Jacob Starrar filed the indenture another 4 days later with the county recorder on June 6, 1883 and Jacob Waltz witnessed that he was present and when Andrew Starrar executed the document.

What was this document all about?

Why no probate for Andrew?

Who was Andrew’s nearest heir?

Did Andrew have a son?

What happened to the $1,000 that Jacob Starrar paid to Andrew?

Did Andrew’s son get it or did Jacob Starrar keep it?

What was the legal mechanism that allowed Jacob Starrar to obtain the legal rights to the property that Jacob Waltz had turned over to Andrew? (We have deed records of Jacob Starrar selling portions of Waltz's original 160 acres before Waltz's death.)

Maybe we will be able to unravel some more of the story as time goes on and maybe some of the answers reside with Greg. We are frequently researching well worn ground that Greg has already dug into. We know there was a Lewis or Louis Starrar living with Jacob and Andrew Starr in the 1870 Census. We have Lewis appearing in the Great Maricopa Register in 1878. He also appears in a couple of deed records and newspaper articles but it remains unclear whether he was Andrew’s son and if he was still living in 1883 when Andrew died?

Another very troubling claim by Goldmine earlier in this thread “Also there was good reason to believe that Andrew Starar was poisoned, probably by his brother Jacob.”

If Greg Davis has anything that would lend substance to this claim, it would be great if he would share it. Until such time I will write it off by considering the source.

There are several other interesting references in the newspaper death accounts of the Starrar brothers. Certainly some food for thought and research.

Garry

 

[Somero]

The Starar ranch wasn't "a few miles east of town"

"the funeral yesterday morning" Dated June 4

"his funeral will take place on Sunday" Dated June 7

"born in Rochester, NY"

You can also see where numerous clones and/or pastes on the images. The text is not of the time period. Totally bogus!

To those who think that people who post facts are Trolls: Go search for dead cast iron skillets killed by angry indians. As far as I've seen you contribute nothing!

Your Opinion or should we consider this as "Facts"?

 

[Cubfan64]

Many thanks to Greg for sharing the information on the deaths of the Starrar Brothers. I had a tentative date for the death of Andrew of 1 Jun 1883 but I had no source. Larry Hannah has been unable to locate a probate for Andrew Starrar and I was beginning to question whether this was when he actually died. This certainly puts everything back on track.

It also continues to raise questions.

There was a rather strange deed where Andrew Starrar sold his interest in the eastern extension of the Location Claim (Quaherty Mining District) to Jacob Starrar for $1000 (Deed Book 9 Page 323) (Maricopa County)

The indenture was made on May 28, 1883. Andrew died 4 days later on June 2, 1883. Jacob Starrar filed the indenture another 4 days later with the county recorder on June 6, 1883 and Jacob Waltz witnessed that he was present and when Andrew Starrar executed the document.

What was this document all about?

Why no probate for Andrew?

Who was Andrew’s nearest heir?

Did Andrew have a son?

What happened to the $1,000 that Jacob Starrar paid to Andrew?

Did Andrew’s son get it or did Jacob Starrar keep it?

What was the legal mechanism that allowed Jacob Starrar to obtain the legal rights to the property that Jacob Waltz had turned over to Andrew? (We have deed records of Jacob Starrar selling portions of Waltz's original 160 acres before Waltz's death.)

Maybe we will be able to unravel some more of the story as time goes on and maybe some of the answers reside with Greg. We are frequently researching well worn ground that Greg has already dug into. We know there was a Lewis or Louis Starrar living with Jacob and Andrew Starr in the 1870 Census. We have Lewis appearing in the Great Maricopa Register in 1878. He also appears in a couple of deed records and newspaper articles but it remains unclear whether he was Andrew’s son and if he was still living in 1883 when Andrew died?

Another very troubling claim by Goldmine earlier in this thread “Also there was good reason to believe that Andrew Starar was poisoned, probably by his brother Jacob.”

If Greg Davis has anything that would lend substance to this claim, it would be great if he would share it. Until such time I will write it off by considering the source.

There are several other interesting references in the newspaper death accounts of the Starrar brothers. Certainly some food for thought and research.

Garry

At the moment, I can't answer any of the questions you raised. I'm not very good at unraveling deeds and property issues, so I was wondering if you and/or Larry would have time to tackle the question(s) that cw0909 raised about who owned the property at the specific location he asked about.

All in all, the Starrar/Waltz relationship is certainly an interesting one

 

[roadrunner]

Did not one of the Starar brothers die by supposedly stricknyne poising?
By suicide. Seems to me a shotgun or pistol in the mouth would be faster and way less painful than poisoning.
If Waltz used different last names maybe it was in case something went to court he could say(thats not me or my signature).
They do that in Florence now all the time.
Person gets arrested in Superior, and they say a fake name, have no id,then when there in front of the judge they say that aint me.Case dismissed. They also say they have no id when arrested or cited.
So there is no proof of there name.

 

[cw0909]

i went back and looked at the Starar guys, im thinking someone
was hustling someone


i thought that jacob waltz lived north of the salt river,and had 160 acres
what is now S 16th st. and E buckeye, but it appears jacob starar owned
that since 1874 and A. Starar also owned his since 1874
the area now
http://goo.gl/maps/MoKch
-------------



STARAR, JACOB
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records





STARAR, ANDREW
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records


and what was being sold or agreement to, by jacob wally /waltz to andrew s.
is farther south of J & A Starar properties, and from my previous post seemed
to be indian land
sold or agreement to land
the north east quarter of
section sixteen (16) in in township one (1) north
of Range three (3) east of the Gila and salt River
meridian
area now
http://goo.gl/maps/22R3c
az state owns now

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

Phoenix, Arizona City History and Historical Figures - ByCityLight.com

President Ulysses S. Grant issued a land patent for the present site of Phoenix on April 10, 1874. The total value of the Phoenix Townsite was $550, with downtown lots selling for between $7 and $11 each. A short time later, a telegraph office, 16 saloons, four dance halls and two banks were open. By 1881, Phoenix had outgrown its original townsite-commissioner form of government. The 11th Territorial Legislature passed "The Phoenix Charter Bill", incorporating Phoenix and providing for a mayor-council government. The bill was signed by Governor John C. Fremont on February 25, 1881. Phoenix was incorporated with a population of approximately 2,500, and on May 3, 1881,

 

[chlsbrns]

I have a verifiable obituary not a group of obvious fakes. I'll post it later.

 

[chlsbrns]

The Starar ranch wasn't "a few miles east of town"

"the funeral yesterday morning" Dated June 4

"his funeral will take place on Sunday" Dated June 7

"born in Rochester, NY"

You can also see where numerous clones and/or pastes on the images. The text is not of the time period. Totally bogus!

To those who think that people who post facts are Trolls: Go search for dead cast iron skillets killed by angry indians. As far as I've seen you contribute nothing!

I guess pointing the obvious makes a person a troll? Or is it because certain people only see & believe what they want to see & believe?

 

[txtea]

I have a verifiable obituary not a group of obvious fakes. I'll post it later.

Why would several sources purposely "fake" obituaries of these men?
Printed news is always dotted with mistakes....even today.

 

[Cubfan64]

Did not one of the Starar brothers die by supposedly stricknyne poising?
By suicide. Seems to me a shotgun or pistol in the mouth would be faster and way less painful than poisoning.
If Waltz used different last names maybe it was in case something went to court he could say(thats not me or my signature).
They do that in Florence now all the time.
Person gets arrested in Superior, and they say a fake name, have no id,then when there in front of the judge they say that aint me.Case dismissed. They also say they have no id when arrested or cited.
So there is no proof of there name.

Roadrunner - I'm with you on that one. Supposedly (according to the newspaper obituary for Jacob Starar) a bottle of strychnine was found wrapped in an old sock next to him. It's hard to imagine someone deciding to commit suicide by poison since it's like a painful way to die. I supposed it's possible someone else poisoned him, or perhaps he was senile at his age and didn't even know what he was taking.

 

[Cubfan64]

i went back and looked at the Starar guys, im thinking someone
was hustling someone


i thought that jacob waltz lived north of the salt river,and had 160 acres
what is now S 16th st. and E buckeye, but it appears jacob starar owned
that since 1874 and A. Starar also owned his since 1874
the area now
http://goo.gl/maps/MoKch
-------------
View attachment 919601


STARAR, JACOB
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records




View attachment 919603
STARAR, ANDREW
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records


and what was being sold or agreement to, by jacob wally /waltz to andrew s.
is farther south of J & A Starar properties, and from my previous post seemed
to be indian land
sold or agreement to land
the north east quarter of
section sixteen (16) in in township one (1) north
of Range three (3) east of the Gila and salt River
meridian
area now
http://goo.gl/maps/22R3c
az state owns now
View attachment 919604

cw0909 - I believe the subject of the land deeds is a really messy one to address. I'm just not versed enough in all the intricate details to discuss it, but I think it's an interesting area to explore.

Hopefully down the road someone who has much more experience or at least understanding of the terminology, laws, deeds, taxes, etc... can put together an outline along with a map to explain what exactly was going on in that time period with real estate.

Wish I could help more but I'm completely out of my element and don't want to discuss something I'm really not at all familiar with.

 

[chlsbrns]

Why would several sources purposely "fake" obituaries of these men?
Printed news is always dotted with mistakes....even today.

Who knows why? Maybe to try to prove someone wrong or discredit someone?

Its like what is printed in hundreds of LDM books. A bunch of crap! Did you ever notice the multitude of books with Waltzer in the title instead of Waltz? People writing books dont know his name? Hahahà!

I have a copy of the land plots showing where 16 was located but i wont post it because it doesnt match what the BLM records show. The BLM records are laid over current Arizona & the current water course. The water/rivers were so different back then that the actual plot location looks incorrect.

 

[chlsbrns]

i went back and looked at the Starar guys, im thinking someone
was hustling someone


i thought that jacob waltz lived north of the salt river,and had 160 acres
what is now S 16th st. and E buckeye, but it appears jacob starar owned
that since 1874 and A. Starar also owned his since 1874
the area now
http://goo.gl/maps/MoKch
-------------
View attachment 919601


STARAR, JACOB
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records




View attachment 919603
STARAR, ANDREW
Patent Details - BLM GLO Records


and what was being sold or agreement to, by jacob wally /waltz to andrew s.
is farther south of J & A Starar properties, and from my previous post seemed
to be indian land
sold or agreement to land
the north east quarter of
section sixteen (16) in in township one (1) north
of Range three (3) east of the Gila and salt River
meridian
area now
http://goo.gl/maps/22R3c
az state owns now
View attachment 919604

CW
The records show yet again that what is written in numerous books is a bunch of bunk. The believers will claim ignorance so that they can continue to believe or will just ignore facts so they can continue to believe.

Great Find!

 

[cw0909]

yea i get the not knowing understanding the data, im having a hard time myself
anyway im putting up a couple more things i found in the docs, i really want to track it to a conclusion
but im a bit busy for a couple of wks,2 fam members passed away sat morn, within hrs of each other
so give me sometime,or someone else look too

found some plats for: township #1 North range 3 east of the Gila and salt river meridian
surveys
1868 Original
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ConvertedImages/Plat_107720_1.PDF
Survey Details - BLM GLO Records

LSR Details
RE: section 16 township #1 North range 3 east of the Gila and salt river meridian
info
pg1 of 17
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ConvertedImages/LSR_30316_Sheet_1.PDF
pgs 1-17, small tab says sheets
Land Status Record Details - BLM GLO Records

 

[cw0909]

chlsbrns
CW
The records show yet again that what is written in numerous books is a bunch of bunk. The believers will claim ignorance so that they can continue to believe or will just ignore facts so they can continue to believe.

Great Find!

maybe not J & A Starar owned 160 acres each, maybe they leased some of that land
thats one of the things im trying to fig out, and the reservation thing

 

[Cubfan64]

maybe not J & A Starar owned 160 acres each, maybe they leased some of that land
thats one of the things im trying to fig out, and the reservation thing

I'll try to wrap my head around some of it in the next couple days, but no promises - for some reason when it comes to real estate transactions, deeds, etc... I get completely confused most of the time - I think part of it comes from not really understanding the "lingo" if you know what I mean.

Very sorry to hear of your family members passing away like that. Whether expected or unexpected it's still a hard thing for those left behind. You have my condolences.

 

[Garry]

yea i get the not knowing understanding the data, im having a hard time myself
anyway im putting up a couple more things i found in the docs, i really want to track it to a conclusion
but im a bit busy for a couple of wks,2 fam members passed away sat morn, within hrs of each other
so give me sometime,or someone else look too

found some plats for: township #1 North range 3 east of the Gila and salt river meridian
surveys
1868 Original
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ConvertedImages/Plat_107720_1.PDF
Survey Details - BLM GLO Records

LSR Details
RE: section 16 township #1 North range 3 east of the Gila and salt river meridian
info
pg1 of 17
http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ConvertedImages/LSR_30316_Sheet_1.PDF
pgs 1-17, small tab says sheets
Land Status Record Details - BLM GLO Records

CW,

The BLM records are a great resource and I don’t understand everything I see but I think you are very close to getting your arms around a lot of it.

The land that Andrew Starar “Homesteaded” and filed a patent for is described as the South West Quarter of Section 9, Township 1, Range 3 East.

The land that Jacob Starar “Homesteaded and received a patent for is described at the South East Quarter of Section 8, Township 1, Range 3 East.

You can locate these entries in the BLM records by looking under patents. You may have already done this and I wasn’t paying close enough attention. You can also locate Waltz's land on the survey plat. It does not join the Starars patent lands but lies east and south of the Starars.

You have also posted the link to the original survey of Township 1N, Range 3E.

If you locate the Starar entries on that plat you will see that they adjoin each other on the north side of the Salt River.

You will also note in one of the documents you posted a link to refers to section 16 and 36 as not being included. These sections are the School Trust land that people speak about and they were not elgible for Homestead. Waltz established his claim to the property through “squatters rights” on the North East Quarter of Section 16, Township 1 North, Range 3E.

I don’t know what the meaning of the Territorial Reservation notation you are seeing but I suspect it has little to do with Indian reservations in our Township but about certain lands generally being reserved by the government for various uses. Indian reservations would probably be included.

I don’t know if this is any help to you but hopefully it will get you North of the Salt River.

Good Luck,

Garry

 

[roadrunner]

Cw, wishing you and all your members well. In health and spirits.