Amish craftsmanship my butt!!!

[Dave44]

We were just talking about this yesterday at my house! Incredible. This health care thing really is broken, and the fault has to do with the liberals, who are really progressives, who are really Communists. But it is wild to see the use of small grains of truth to "progress" the eventual downfall of the best healthcare system in the world.

Heck, at this point everyone of us can decide to go to any third world country for the very malady they may have (Michael Moore likes the Cuban healthcare, but it seems not enough to actually use it, he just promotes it).

Health care in this country has been run by insurance and government for years. And it costs more and more all the time!!! And Everyone in this country gets healthcare! It is a nice talking point to say this bunch kills you and that group would like to, But it simply is not true! Some procedures have risks, Some insurance companies will not pay, and the government legislates what the insurance lobby wants. And the drug industry has ALOT of r&d, heaven forbid someone dies after the risks are explained to them,, then it is a bloodbath, everybody makes huge money then.

Absolutely Government is broken! It is partly Republicans fault. And it has a very lot to do with Democrats, I only say this as the democrats have been co-opted by socialists more thoroughly than the Republicans. But progress is progress after all.

Health care in this country has not been free market in Years and that is the problem. By the way Although OBama care said that you could keep your doctor if you want to it is not really the truth, as most of what he says is not, It is a Trojan Horse to single payer, have your maladies treated in Cuba, heck get on a waiting list in Europe or Canada before you decide you like it here!

Mitt Romney care my buttocks, let the states decide if it works, that is how the US is structured Beth. At least until the last presidential election,, I believe the Constitution has something to say about that,, But of course, You know more than me?

 

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[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave44,

Is there some reason you are making this personal to me?

I happen to agree that the system is broken. And, I agree that the problem belongs to both parties.

Part of the issue, I think - is this - your state (no state) pays for medicaid etc. They all pay for it from Federal Funds. (which comes back to
the taxpayers). Your state (and mine) gets funds from the government - dependent on population, mostly), for the use of the states in doing
whatever they want to do in the health care department.

However, states are not equal in how they dole that out. A pet peeve for me - is New Mexico and former Governor Richards. Since you were
not around (I don't think) when this event in my family life occurred, I will update you. My sister, worked all her life. She got breast cancer.
She worked in a doctor's office - she is a nurse (we went to nursing school together). The doctor's office employed 14 people. My sister had
money put aside, plus, she paid up her rent and all her bills, for 6 months - before she got operated on. (her thinking being that, by the time
that was over, she would be able to go back to work).

Well, she got operated on - and then her insurance company dropped her. Since there was only 14 people employed at the office she worked at
for 20 years - it was legal for the insurance company to drop her. The problem, of course, is that - they didn't want to pay a penny more than
the surgery - and refused to cover her radiation. Well, her savings went to radiation treatments. (at about 9 grand a pop). In the meantime, she
did an appeal to the insurance company - twice, and both denied, and then the insurance company threatened to stop covering ALL the employees
unless she was fired. Well, she was fired - again, it was legal. She could not collect unemployment, because she was not capable and ready for
work. So, I took her to the medicaid office. And guess what - she did not qualify - because Governor Richards, during his time as governor, had
changed the medicaid and food stamp rules to only include children, American Indians and migrant workers. Nobody else can get any kind of help.
Well, during this time, after the 6 months, she lost her home - she moved in with her daughter, and, because she could no longer continue radiation treatments - the cancer spread. As a family, we did get her treatment - but, eventually - she went to stay with her other sister (not mine), in another state, and got the treatments she needed.

I won't go into the rest of the story, but, suffice it to say, the cancer is now in her lungs, her blood and her bones. This is how unequal treatment
in different states can be. So, you may be able to understand why I think that - in this country, the kinds of treatments available (and I'm talking about standard treatments, not anything experimental) should be equal. And, the insurance companies should NEVER be able to do what they
did to my sister - or to anybody else.

Yes, the system is broken.

Beth

 

[Dave44]

I am sorry for your sisters health. It is sinful that insurance companies have lobbied the politicians and given them enough money to build the laws that lead to this. They bribe both parties so to maximize the benefits they get by owning government.

A good start is to open up the free markets and make them compete. No money to any campaigns. But Obama care will be worse than what happened to your sister. Go to the DMV in Abusy state and watch.

And every time there is a budget shortfall( brought on by shortsighted or crooked politicians) the politicians want to cut the most needed first ( A sort of shock and awe strategy- look what we may have to do!!!)
You think they will not use this wedge first?

 

[olroy70]

I am sorry for you sister's plight.

I was living in NM during the time Richardson was guv. The best thing to do with healthcare, and insurance, would be to open it up so they could sell across state lines.

Medicaid is paid for by the states! Medicare is supposed to be paid by the feds. Medicaid is forced onto the states by the feds!
What we have is two different ways to ruin our healthcare system!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gord]

And every time there is a budget shortfall( brought on by shortsighted or crooked politicians) the politicians want to cut the most needed first ( A sort of shock and awe strategy- look what we may have to do!!!)
You think they will not use this wedge first?

`Shock and awe` - if it was happening anywhere else, they would call it just what it is - terrorism.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave44 and others,

You all bring up a good point - a really important point - and that is politician lobbyists.

I have often thought that we should stop letting lobby groups contribute to any political party and any individual politician. That would be a giant step forward. (imo).

I know I have a personal vendetta against "the system".

Knowing that, I have to agree that companies should be able to go across state lines - it would definitely help competition - but I also think it
is unconstitutional that they cannot. I know there is a part of our constitution that specifically states that one state is equal to the other when it
comes to trade - and I'm not sure how we ended up where we are with pricing - and not just healthcare.

I also have a big issue with drug prices. I can say, with absolute knowledge, that you can get drugs from Canada at a miniscule price compared to what we pay here - and it is not only the same drugs - but they are made in the USA. My son-in-law works for Novartis, and, I can tell you, they
make drugs, sell it to Canada, and when we buy it from Canada, it is 1/3rd the cost of buying the exact same drug, in the exact same package, made at the exact same place - then if we bought it here. I admit it - I have bought from Canada - it was the difference between $300 for one prescription - or $29.00 for the same prescription, packaged the same and from the same darned company in New Jersey. Costco regularly gets
their meds from Canada, which is how they are able to charge a lot less on some medications.


Here is another interesting thing, for any people here who have insurance. Just once, tell them you are going to pay in cash - while we were
on our last trip, I had to pay cash for two of our prescriptions. I paid $55.00 for the 2 prescriptions. Well, I was just going over what my
insurance company paid here just the other day. $129.00 each - not both - but each. What's wrong with that picture? Somebody is pocketing a lot of cash. And its not us. (the taxpayers).

I'm not sure how the DMV equates with health care - I, at this point, have been judging by what Mass. has, which is the exact same as Obamacare has. BTW - it was Mass that my sister went to. It is too bad that it was not early enough to stop the spread of the cancer - because, without a doubt, her time is limited here - and I just have to think that it has to do with the amount of time she went without treatment.

Beth

 

[mikeofaustin]

Posted on: Yesterday at 11:26:59 PM
Posted by: mikeofaustin
The Amish? Well, they live like stone age people.

Personally, I admire their way of life. I wish WE were all FORCED to live this way just so we could weed out all these fat, soft, whining, sorry excuses of life that call themselves Americans, that wouldn't last a week in such a lifestyle.
I pray for such a day.

I myself, If I had to, would be able to fend for myself in the wilderness. However, the amenities of 'modern' (hint: modern) living is something I like. I'd like to think that this 'modern' living, is something of an advancement for mankind, and we, as humans, are not snails that cannot have ingenuity. These people that you 'admire' choose to live in hardship. They chose to live without advancement. There is something fundamentally wrong with this.

 

[mikeofaustin]

The Amish are allowed to opt out of several things............

like obamacare, ss, etc. Why cant anyone?

Keep in mind, the term "obama care" was adopted during the pressing of a need for a real alternative to the current 'for profit' health care. And, after it failed to pass, the republicans kept using that term, in a 'derogatory' way, to keep up the finger pointing. Obama care, today, as you so call it, is actually aimed at forcing people to pay extra on their taxes to have medical insurance. That is a win for republicans and their corporate sponsors. But, low and behold, the term still lingers, despite the republicans having their way (read: republican's having their way). (the term lost it's value a long time ago. Come up with something new).

 

[mikeofaustin]

There used to be a time that you could opt out of Social Security.

Let's talk about the "Affordable Care Act" (otherwise called "Obamacare')

*Ends lifetime and annual "limits" (we have had that problem for awhile - the insurance company tells you that after open-heart surgery, you can only be in the hospital for 3 days - and you cannot go back in for things like infections, if you've used up your "time').

* Tax credits for small businesses that supply healthcare for their employees.

* Patient Bill of Rights - not the same as the other patient bill of rights we had - this one stops your insurance company from dropping you if you get sick.

* Insurers must cover preventative medicine - like stress tests, your children's vaccinations, your colonoscopy when you turn 50, mammograms, healthy baby programs - stuff like that.

* The right of self-employed folks to join a group health plan (anyone who is self-employed knows that private insurance is expensive - more expensive than if you were not self-employed)

* Requires health insurers to write their policies in plain language, not longer than 4 pages in real English and not "legal-eze".

In fact - I suggest that, instead of listening to what others tell you about "Obamacare" - you might actually read it for yourself - unlike our
politicians.............

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/about/The Full Law by Section/bysection.html

Beth

You are right. I'll add that, everything you mentioned in this 'partial' fix, again, the republicans are against. So, a mile high perspective would be, "You have NO RIGHT TO LIVE". (despite them taking your money). .... Have a bunion removed on your foot 10 years ago and have just now have a failing heart? No Soup For You!!!! (That is the republican way.

 

[mikeofaustin]

Did you also notice the cost of it. Did you notice the death panel.......

Wow!. The cost is a direct result of the insurance industry. I really don't have time to go into 'health care 101', but their is a reason why healthcare cost so much. Their is a single factor.

 

[mikeofaustin]

Anytime government gets involved with anything - there are problems - for sure.

Beth

I must disagree with you on this Beth. I personally believe, as everyone else 'should', that if they were to involve themselves in healthcare (not just as a second payer to the private industries), that they would not have the overhead required or needed to support a large, for profit system. Currently, the government pays directly into the for profit industry, doubling it's expenses. If we ripped out the middle man..... (read that last statement again).

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

MikeofAustin,

I was talking about problems of a different sort - I was talking about party versus party (democrats vs. republicans). Anytime they are trying to
do something, there are problems. It seems to always turn personal. And, we end up with bills and laws that an ordinary person couldn't possibly understand - so the politicians write something else, to explain what they said the first time, etc.

Another thing I would like to see addressed - but probably never will be - is the infamous "tort reform". I believe in a person's right to sue. However, I also know that we still have a society of "ambulance chasers". To me, there is a simple solution that would (read that: should) lower
malpractice insurance costs, keep people's ability to sue and still let juries decide punitive damages to whatever tune they wish. But - it would
stop the frivolous stuff.

When I went to nursing school, most of my clinicals took place in teaching hospitals. Every teaching hospital has a panel - after every surgery, after every patient death, after every major patient encounter - they get together, with the people who were involved, and decide what was done
well, what was not done well, and what a doctor/intern/nurse could have done better, or should have done differently.

I think there should be a panel like that for medical malpractice suits. If the panel finds that things were not done correctly - then the patient has a right to sue. If things were done according to current medical acceptable practices, then they do not have the right to sue. A panel would be made up of medical personnel that are NOT affiliated with a specific hospital or practice and there would be a panel of maybe 9-12 people, in each panel. You could have 2 or 3 of these panels in each part of the country, who would do this for their districts.

This way, the poor patient that had their left foot cut off instead of their right foot, would have all their rights to sue, and the person who was ticked off because their skin stayed black and blue too long - doesn't muck up the system.

These panels would NOT EVER be funded by hospitals or co-ops or doctors, or insurance companies. They would work for the people. It would also help doctors who sometimes just "pay-up" because its easier than spending months in court. They would not be able to do that. It would lower mal-practice insurance and consequently, lower medical costs.

Beth

 

[mikeofaustin]

We were just talking about this yesterday at my house! Incredible. This health care thing really is broken, and the fault has to do with the liberals, who are really progressives, who are really Communists. But it is wild to see the use of small grains of truth to "progress" the eventual downfall of the best healthcare system in the world.

By "Progressives", do you mean change in government for the better of mankind, or just the better of corporations. Be careful how you use that word. You say, 'the best healthcare system in the world'. Sure, if you can afford it. Meanwhile, our own neighboring countries are charging pennies on the dollar for prescription medications.

Heck, at this point everyone of us can decide to go to any third world country for the very malady they may have (Michael Moore likes the Cuban healthcare, but it seems not enough to actually use it, he just promotes it).

Mike Moore has an ugly way about him sometimes, but I think the one thing he got across was that health care was virtually free in that country. Prescriptions? That too. There is also the point that he made that their lifespan is longer that ours, despite us having a "much better system".

Health care in this country has been run by insurance and government for years. And it costs more and more all the time!!! And Everyone in this country gets healthcare! It is a nice talking point to say this bunch kills you and that group would like to, But it simply is not true! Some procedures have risks, Some insurance companies will not pay, and the government legislates what the insurance lobby wants. And the drug industry has ALOT of r&d, heaven forbid someone dies after the risks are explained to them,, then it is a bloodbath, everybody makes huge money then.

DING DING DING!!! Healthcare has NOT be run by the government. The private sector lobbies the government so they can get what they want. Do you ever wonder why you have only 2 or 3 insurance available to choose from when you buy it? It's fixed to prevent competition. THAT is why it costs more and more all the time. And, the government does NOT legislate what the insurance lobby wants. The lobby tells the legislator what it wants, and then it happens.

Absolutely Government is broken! It is partly Republicans fault. And it has a very lot to do with Democrats, I only say this as the democrats have been co-opted by socialists more thoroughly than the Republicans. But progress is progress after all.

Yes, they are both very much broken, but it doesn't' help at all when you have the government protecting their corporate sponsors. I can't remember the actual number, but when the 'single payer system' came up for vote, it was a record number of payments from lobbyist that spent something like $40 million to get it squashed... Something their tells you that their is profit to be made in the death of your own mother, wife, child, brother. I'm not trying to be ugly. I'm simply telling you exactly what they wish would happen if you were to go into an office with a previous ailment, and they denied you because of a HANG-NAIL. It really doesn't hit home until it hits home!!! That, my friend, is not communist,... it's what is right! It is WHAT IS RIGHT!!!! You have republicans speaking about God all the time. Yet, they harbor these private insurances for denying coverage for something as simple as an headache. If you were to profit on a persons death, by denying them a treatment for such a thing, then that person deserves their own place in hell.
And by the way, when you say, "Progress is progress"... Do you really mean, "Our Congress will pass laws, based on what contributions by the corporations TELL us what is best for the American people?". Because if that's the case, no. It's not progress. It's not progress at all... At least not for the american people. For the rich people, yes, it is progress.

Health care in this country has not been free market in Years and that is the problem. By the way Although OBama care said that you could keep your doctor if you want to it is not really the truth, as most of what he says is not, It is a Trojan Horse to single payer, have your maladies treated in Cuba, heck get on a waiting list in Europe or Canada before you decide you like it here!

Health care system in this country has NOT been a free market for years. You have that correct Sir. And that is largely in part because of the private industries that lobby our own government. Also, when you say "wait in the lobby to get your 'free healthcare'... I don't know if you know what 'triage' means, but it means that you will wait in line with your splinter in your finger, so that the guy with a bullet in his chest can be seen first. I've actually lived in Canada for many years. The only difference is that I did not have to pay for it. Yes, I was sitting in the waiting room, but I was treated fairly. Back in Austin, when I had a broken arm, I again, sat in the waiting room, waiting to be seen. There were more deserving people that needed to be seen than me, despite me being in severe pain. The replublican argument for 'waiting to be seen' is something concocted by the right. It's old. Example, you will not hear of a person that wants to give up Canadian healthcare for our care at all. Again, it's a word for the right drones to use.
Single payer, simple meant that instead of the 'for profits' that were incurred (AKA: 40% profits on payments), the government would not get a profit, and instead, use that money directly to pay for health. Why is it, that 'for profit', and 'Not for profit' doesn't' make since to a lot of people. Sure you could bring up the red-cross, and a non-profit entity, but look at the executives pay in that red cross system. It's very ugly.

Mitt Romney care my buttocks, let the states decide if it works, that is how the US is structured Beth. At least until the last presidential election,, I believe the Constitution has something to say about that,, But of course, You know more than me?

I agree... Mitt Romney, My butt!!!! The consitution has had many amendments throughout and currently.... Some people would argue that its a 'living document'. But, it really shouldn't be.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I believe the Constitution is a "living document" only in the sense that it is the document to "live by", in my life.

Get off the "democrats" and the "republicans" - neither party has helped us a bit.

It is NOT the democrats fault - it is not the Republicans fault - its our fault. We elect them, and then we bitchh about them for the next 2-4-6-8 years.
Then we do it again. I cannot remember the last time the "people" were really in control, of anything.

The republicans talk about the government shouldn't be in the people's business, between a doctor and the patient, but, they only want to stop being in the business of the things they want. If they don't like something - they definitely want to be in your business. They don't want the government to be in your doctor's office, unless you are going to planned parenthood - then, its ok to be in your business.

The democrats want to throw caution to the wind - let's just be in everything. Let's tell you what color to paint your house, and how big your house should be and gosh knows what else. They want to give away the store - and the republicans want to own the store.

Meanwhile, back in mainstream USofA - we, the people, are pawns in their power-trips. And, brain-washed pawns at that. You cannot believe either party. We just have to worry about the price of gas, and if our real estate taxes are going to go up, and in the trickle down theory, well, poop trickles downhill, too.

Healthcare has definitely been controlled by the companies - just like everything else is run by corporations - the banks, your ira, wall street,
all we have to do is look to see who we always bail out - the savings and loans, and we were never going to do that again - and its the democrats problem, but all democrats and republicans too, took time off the campaign trail to vote for those bailouts - and the reason is - they own our politicians. That's why a third party candidate cannot even get into a debate - never mind get elected. You can tell the people that belong to themselves, because no political party backs them.

And, in the unlikely event that we get someone who is not bought and paid for - it does not take long for them to either be assassinated or we spend 10 million taxpayer dollars on crap charges, or they "take them out to the woodshed", as they like to say, until they "conform".

Elections are bought and paid for - and, when they don't come out like they are supposed to, they "find" the votes to get their folks in power. And it is power - its all power and money.

We, the people, are along for the ride.

Beth

 

[mikeofaustin]

Beth, consider the recent events where our government said "If you help the terrorists, you yourself will become an enemy of the US. AND, any individual that supports the enemy financially shall become a terrorist in the eyes of the American government. A financial blockade will occur on the financial institution on anyone that has been shown to support the terrorist organizations. Our own government has given millions to the very people that they call terrorists. So, does that mean we should not give any money to

/// our government is a .......

In all respect. I really just want people to do a little more investigation. If you are for the right or left,... it truly is really about what is better for the people.

 

[Dave44]

Mike of Austin, Am I understanding you correctly?
Are you saying the larger picture for the betterment of mankind is to collectively come together so that the benevolent government in a Utopian and picturesque view of the new Socialist States of America can finally PROGRESS to total domination?
Listen Friend, I ain't buyin!!! You have the flowery "lifting of society by lowering the leaders is moral" rhetoric down pat. Flatly, government will not work in any endeavor that you ascribe it. You think corporations are evil? Look hard at politicians. And when a politician is voted out he hates that he lost power but realizes that now he doesn't have to hide how he makes money, lo and behold, a new lobbiest is hired for the insurance companies.
Many corporations have been taken over by progressives and give funds to the left and right, all progressive politicians. (By the way sir, Mrs. Clinton said that she is a progressive in the pattern of the early 20th century, I am not sure I have the time to educate you so you should look it up. Alot of us are aware what that means now so trying to redefine it again will not work, just making sure you know this)


Beth, you are right, The political class needs to be flushed, and the media used to have a job, Vetting potential candidates. Since they have also Been taken over by progressives, They only investigate conservatives. Not that I am a huge Bush fan, But the hit job Dan Rather did comes to mind, no facts but he was going on the air with it.

 

[olroy70]

Dan Rather spends a lot of time in Austin, where he is loved............

Loyd Dogget is an example of Austin............. Sure glad I am NOT there anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good job, Dave44!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Dave44,

I think you are spot on about the media (in fact, I'm beginning to think that we are talking about the same things, but in different ways).

The media tells whatever it feels like reporting on, when they feel like reporting on it - and with their own spin.

That's why we, as citizens, would be wise to listen to both sides of all the arguements - since, somewhere in all that reporting, there are some grains of truth - and things that we, as citizens, can follow-up on.

Beth

 

[mikeofaustin]

Mike of Austin, Am I understanding you correctly?
Are you saying the larger picture for the betterment of mankind is to collectively come together so that the benevolent government in a Utopian and picturesque view of the new Socialist States of America can finally PROGRESS to total domination?
Listen Friend, I ain't buyin!!! You have the flowery "lifting of society by lowering the leaders is moral" rhetoric down pat. Flatly, government will not work in any endeavor that you ascribe it. You think corporations are evil? Look hard at politicians. And when a politician is voted out he hates that he lost power but realizes that now he doesn't have to hide how he makes money, lo and behold, a new lobbiest is hired for the insurance companies.
Many corporations have been taken over by progressives and give funds to the left and right, all progressive politicians. (By the way sir, Mrs. Clinton said that she is a progressive in the pattern of the early 20th century, I am not sure I have the time to educate you so you should look it up. Alot of us are aware what that means now so trying to redefine it again will not work, just making sure you know this)

No Dave... I'm not saying this at all. In fact, I truly would love to see 'big government' get out of our lives. They've sadly, became a big part of it. I'm saying that the 'Benovolent Corporations' in 'their Utopian and picturesque view' should NOT be allowed to control, or even have influence on our congressman. Corporations are NOT a living breathing entity, however, they are currently legally treated like one. The fact is, if there were an actual human that thought the same way as a corporation, they would be a psychopath.

As far as politicians that no longer need to 'hide' how he makes money after being ejected? I agree with you. It's all a big circle-jerk. You scratch my back while I'm in office, I'll do what you pay me to do, and afterwards, I'll still get paid millions by becoming a lobbyist for the corporations, if not a high paid executive later... Do you not see a conflict of interest here?
I also want to add that thanks to the recent ruling for the 'citizens united' group, the supreme courts striped (raped) the campaign reform act (that was passed in 2002). This means that now, contributions are now completely anonymous. It was a very controversial ruling. This, in essence, means that the richest of the rich can lobby congress and not have to divulge their names. I find it odd that the group is called "Citizens United" when it has nothing to do with the common citizen at all. (note that it's a republican group that came up with this name).

Your comment, "Lifting of society by lowering the leaders".... I myself, would NOT call a corrupt congressman a 'Leader'. So yes, I would gladly like to see the "corrupt leaders" that do nothing for the better of the common citizen lowered, if not rudely kicked out the door. You made a mistake by calling these type of people a 'leader', when in fact they are not.

Hillary is not on my Christmas card list and never has been. In fact, I hate what B.Clinton has done regarding the NAFTA B.S. There is ugly on the left and right. My stance, is that when you hear a senator spouting his propaganda to get a bill passed... MAKE ABSULUTELY SURE, that this person is not favoring the corporations instead of the comman citizen. Sadly, most voters will listen to this laced speech, and believe it based on the 'keywords' that they use, like, 'Citizens United'. I can still remember the very words out of B.CLintons mouth, "People in China want to buy our computers, but they can't". Yeah... a joke.
I would simply love to see corporations out of the influence of laws passed that are supposedly for the better of mankind. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Get corporation interests out of congress. Period. This country was NOT founded on the bettering of corporations. Do you agree?

P.s. "You think corporations are evil? Look at politicians". Yes, I have. Why do you think they are evil? Because of special interests? (aka: lobby efforts).

EDIT: Here is a historical example of what happens when corporations have influence on the government. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

And yet another 'point of view' (not my own, but quite convincing). ... http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=6382

 

[Dave44]

Sorry about the confusion Mike. When I spoke of leaders I in no way meant to refer to politicians, I was referring to legitimate business owners that try to build a future for themselves and their employees.

And we agree get corporations out of congress, as long as Unions and self interested groups like the Sierra Club, Al Gores bunch of crazies and any other group that helps the decline of America.

Weren't the Rockefellars partly responsible for the building of the Federal Reserve structure? Not a fan!
I can see that unions were needed at the turn of the century, now they are a tumor, feeding off of its members AND the tax base everywhere they exist. And judging by the deplorable tactics they use, it would be hard to say they didn't attack the National Guard, they definately attacked other mines, after all, misery loves company.

By the way. Did you see that baby Joe was allowed to go home today??!! To fill you in, Canadas utopian Health care said that he was going to die anyway, so they were not going to spend anymore money on him. So they brought him, Wait for it.... To the United States for the best health care in the world (currently that is). Looks like he is terminal, but OUR health care bought him another year or so and if Obama care doesn't cripple us first Our Doctors might find a cure, unlikely, but it is possible